stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
Can you make p-TSA in situ without too much residual H2SO4?
If one were to make p-TSA in situ from Toluene/H2SO4 using a Dean-Stark trap, how much unreacted H2SO4 would possibly remain?
[Edited on 5-10-2020 by stoichiometric_steve]
|
|
|
SaccharinSlayer157
Harmless
Posts: 26
Registered: 1-10-2020
Location: Near Cou?
Member Is Offline
Mood: Resisting the urge to build a ketene lamp
|
|
Not sure exactly what you're asking but these might help if you haven't seen them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GosyO-W-1o&ab_channel=N...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBOvq6Lr1Zk&ab_channel=D...
Edit: Wait you're an international hazard I probably misunderstood the question
[Edited on 5-10-2020 by SaccharinSlayer157]
|
|
|
stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
Sorry i'll try to make it more precise:
I have a reaction that needs p-TSA as a catalyst and can use Toluene as the solvent, but doesn't tolerate H2SO4 very well.
I want to make p-TSA since it's more economical than buying it.
Also since i'm a lazy fucker, i don't want to isolate the p-TSA and even prefer its anhydrous form.
I've never made p-TSA before so i need to know if the H2SO4 fully reacts or not.
If not, can i distill Toluene from the mixture first, then distill out p-TSA under vacuum, leaving H2SO4 behind?
[Edited on 5-10-2020 by stoichiometric_steve]
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
I reacted ethylene glycol with cyclopentanone in toluene after refluxing the toluene with sulfuric acid and catching some water in a Dean Stark.
As far as I could tell sulfuric acid is not very soluble in toluene and the reaction is driven towards p-TSA completely in a Dean Stark.
The reaction is also a nice test to see whether your toluene is pure, it darkens technical grade toluene.
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2801
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
The formation of TsOH is an equilibrium reaction and is reversed in sulfuric acid containing sufficient water (but not enough to inhibit the
reaction). As such it will not proceed to completion in situ. Sorry.
|
|
|
Alucard
Harmless
Posts: 22
Registered: 6-2-2019
Location: European Union
Member Is Offline
|
|
It is not obligately necessary to use Dean Stark trap when making p-TSA, but I strongly recommend to use a magnetic stirrer to make reaction mass as
homogeneus as possible. When reaction is complete, a whole reaction mass will solidify upon cooling and standing. To check is reaction completed or
not, just simply stop magnetic stirrer and take a look at toluene layer consumption, but it is not really necessary to wait when it will be consumed
completely, I actually have about 20% of initial toluene amount unreacted, because in my country (EU) we have cheap toluene and sufuric acid too.
So, you simply have to take magnetic stirrer hotplate, toluol, H2SO4, heat a whole reaction mass while stirring, and you will end up with an amber
coloured liquid when about 80-90% of toluene is consumed, then you turn off heating and cool down your solution, and it will solidify then.
|
|
|
stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  |
As far as I could tell sulfuric acid is not very soluble in toluene and the reaction is driven towards p-TSA completely in a Dean Stark
|
Is there a bottom layer of sulfuric acid after the reaction that can be pipetted out?
Atara, but what's the DS trap for then if it doesn't go to completion? That was exactly my question, how much H2SO4 remains when removing all water
produced with a DS trap?
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
I indeed meant the reaction going to completion when using a DS.
The sulfuric acid indeed forms a bottom layer which can be pipetted, but I don't know how much sulfuric acid dissolves in toluene. I would use the
dean stark and wait for it to go to completion. You probably don't need much p-TSA anyway.
|
|
|
stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
Sadly i need 2:1 PTSA:Substrate (1.2:1 w/w) , but it should absolutely be worth it 
|
|
|
stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
Check this out:
Attachment: 10.1021@acs.jnatprod.0c00436.pdf (1.9MB)
This file has been downloaded 470 times
also:
[Edited on 6-10-2020 by stoichiometric_steve]
|
|
|
karlos³
International Hazard
Posts: 1520
Registered: 10-1-2011
Location: yes!
Member Is Offline
Mood: oxazolidinic 8)
|
|
But its just lousy delta-8.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Why do you want to use anhydrous p-TSA? In the article they get excellent yields (delta-9) with the monohydrate.
|
|
|
stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
read again 
| Quote: |
Why do you want to use anhydrous p-TSA? In the article they get excellent yields (delta-9) with the monohydrate. |
so i don't have to add water to the p-TSA made in situ on a DS trap.
[Edited on 6-10-2020 by stoichiometric_steve]
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2801
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve |
Atara, but what's the DS trap for then if it doesn't go to completion? That was exactly my question, how much H2SO4 remains when removing all water
produced with a DS trap? |
It shifts the equilibrium. You have:
H2SO4 + PhMe <> TsOH + H2O
[H2SO4] = a
[PhMe] = b
[TsOH] = c
[H2O] = d
The forward reaction rate is k1*a*b and the reverse reaction rate is k2*c*d. A Dean-Stark trap will reduce the reverse reaction rate and increase the
yield while also making it easier to recover the product, but the forward reaction rate will always approach zero as [H2SO4] goes to zero.
In fact this is not the actual reaction, it is this:
H3SO4+ + PhMe <> TsOH + H3O+
but H3SO4+ has to be generated by the rxn of two molecules of H2SO4:
2 H2SO4 + PhMe <> TsOH + H3O+ + HSO4-
In the above mechanism we instead find a forward reaction rate of k1*b*a^2 and a reverse rate of k2*a*c*d. Of course you can also do this:
H2SO4 + PhMe + TsOH <> TsOH + H3O+ + TsO-
In the second mechanism TsOH rather than H2SO4 supplies the proton. But TsOH is substantially weaker (about 1000 times weaker) than H2SO4! So the
reaction rate is much slower.
Really the forward reaction rate is then: k1*b*a^2 + k3*a*b*c, k1 >> k3.
In all cases, though, we find that the reaction is very slow, perhaps not quite second-order slow but close, in the absence of sufficient sulfuric
acid.
Now if you could pipette it out as Tsjerk suggests you might have yourself a method.
|
|
|
karlos³
International Hazard
Posts: 1520
Registered: 10-1-2011
Location: yes!
Member Is Offline
Mood: oxazolidinic 8)
|
|
Ok thats really interesting.
I need some more CBD to try this out, although I thought that the delta nine produced from CBD just acts like a heavy hammer, when I made
predominantly this with the diluted HCl method in ethanol.
|
|
|
Corrosive Joeseph
National Hazard
Posts: 915
Registered: 17-5-2015
Location: The Other Place
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cyclic
|
|
Attaching Purification of p-TsOH from Armarego and Chai.
/CJ
Being well adjusted to a sick society is no measure of one's mental health
|
|
|
stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
karlos, HCl in Ethanol apparently isn't a reliable method since it also produces variable amounts of impurities like ethoxylated compounds. There have
been so many claims made about HCl, Phosphoric and other acids for delta9 THC production, it has become hard to tell what influence the respective
reaction conditions have on the distribution of the resulting products and impurities.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve |
| Quote: |
Why do you want to use anhydrous p-TSA? In the article they get excellent yields (delta-9) with the monohydrate. |
so i don't have to add water to the p-TSA made in situ on a DS trap.
[Edited on 6-10-2020 by stoichiometric_steve] |
You could just reflux, cool down to crystallize the monohydrate and filter. That way you also know there is no sulfuric acid left.
|
|
|
stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
Posts: 827
Registered: 14-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: satyric
|
|
Thats what i want to avoid, the monohydrate doesn't form when using a DS trap.
If going that route, i could just as well buy PTSA, it's quite cheap and not worth messing around with isolating it. But i would prefer to design a
one-pot process or at least one as streamlined as possible, just for the fun of it.
I guess i will have to find out the solubility of Sulfuric acid in Toluene somehow, or maybe it is even so low that it doesn't matter.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
