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Refinery
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European Sulfuric Acid Ban
The full extent of the European Sulfuric Acid ban is described in here:
https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-46-2019-INI...
The restriction is following:
- Over 15% requires license
- Over 40% is banned
The requirements are same as prior precursors. The restriction applies to general public, or individual customers. It does not affect professional
customers.
So, if it's in your interest, stockpile sulfuric acid now.
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Ubya
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oh crap... not again
i stockpiled 5L of clean 98% sulfuric acid in the last few years fearing this
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Tsjerk
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In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.
Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.
[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk]
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MadHatter
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Chemical Acquisition
Experienced(even amateur) chemists can
make most of what they want regardless
of stupid, lobotomized politicians. Prohibitions
do not work - ever.
Politicians - I forgot to add neutered.
[Edited on 2020/7/14 by MadHatter]
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
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Refinery
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#metoo
Last time I purchased sulfuric acid, it was 96%, in 25L canister and it cost around 150 bucks.
Effectively, who they can prevent from making energetics are the low level teen cooks and other idiots who usually end up blowing their own hands. I
wish there were more surgically precise means of removing them from the market.
Sulfuric acid ban is PITA because it is one of the most essential feedstock in chemistry.
[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Refinery]
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Tsjerk
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For everyone without such a number: get what you can before 01-02-2021.
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Draeger
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Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  | In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.
Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.
[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk] |
Does the number have the same benefits in Germany?
Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn, Na
Collected compounds:
Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2
Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum, mineral oil
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Tsjerk
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I really don't know, I never ordered something from Germany that required the number. Actually I don't think I ever ordered chemicals from Germany.
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BrainAmoeba
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Nice... I just some 98% sulfuric acid. By the way, what happened that they decided to start war on precursors once again? I though that situation
calmed down.
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Refinery
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As far as I am aware, yes. There was one instance where the supplier would deliver only against a valid business number. Germany seems to have
widespread regulations on many chemicals anyways, at least with the couple of suppliers I've dealt with. Basically everything that has of any value in
chemistry and reacts more vigorously than table salt, is classified as some sort of "professional use only" reagent.
| Quote: Originally posted by BrainAmoeba | | Nice... I just some 98% sulfuric acid. By the way, what happened that they decided to start war on precursors once again? I though that situation
calmed down. |
I think the banhammer has only one direction, unless societal situation changes significantly. EU has been banning pretty much everything, including
most small arms and large capacity magazines.
[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Refinery]
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Syn the Sizer
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.
Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.
[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk] |
I believe that is the same in Canada, though this ban does not affect me I still am in the process of getting myself such a number here. Tbh we have a
very small precursors list and all the Class B precursors can be bought in 1 stop at Canadian Tire.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-conce...
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Belowzero
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It also mentions potassium nitrate/clorate , calcium nitrate, hexamine,aluminum powders and many others.
A lot of essential chemicals for the home chemist.
I guess we will all have to replace our car batteries too..
Governments, a never ending tighting noose.
Keep importing more people that are willing to use those against the population, thats no fucking problem , but potential precursours yeah that will
help, scum. sigh..
I know leave the politics at the door but sometimes its hard to restrain.
Serious point about the electrolyte , am I no longer allowed to fill my own battery or have did the moron bureaucrats forgot we actually need that for
you know real life stuff.
About stockpiling , at first that sounds reasonable but having 10's of litres of sulfuric is kinda hard to explain and will get you into trouble when
caught, especially if it is considered restricted.
Also this would feel like every experiment you do is just draining hard or perhaps impossible to obtain material which is unsettling to say the least.
[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Belowzero]
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karlos³
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| Quote: Originally posted by Draeger | | Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | In the Netherlands "professional" just means you have a company number, it doesn't matter what the company does. Glad I have such a number.
Also 68% HNO3 and 50% hydrogen peroxide can easily be bought with the number.
[Edited on 14-7-2020 by Tsjerk] |
Does the number have the same benefits in Germany? |
The VAT-number? Of course, just register a business.
It costs around 40€ and you can do it at the local Gewerbeamt.
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BJ68
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ |
The VAT-number? Of course, just register a business.
It costs around 40€ and you can do it at the local Gewerbeamt.
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Make it and you will get perhaps visits from the trade supervisory authority (Gewerbeaufsichtsamt) to check e.g. the storage of chemicals and more
important the whole REACH-Complex is for you in force, with all the nice pitfalls, where negligence will be punished, too.
bj68
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Refinery
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When I contacted the chemical safety authority, they were concerned about quantities that need reporting, and they were referred in tons. The treshold
for oxidizing or corrosive materials was 5 tons if I remember correctly. Only stuff they were really interested was gas cylinders and explosives
(fireworks, ammunition, etc) which have very small storage limits, unless they have designated and separate storage space.
So it is highly unlikely you will get any visit from any inspectorate unless you order IBC containers of that stuff and report it to somewhere. Just
to note that business transactions are not registered in any database, companies must keep their own records for financials and inventory and if
nothing happens that needs investigation, no one is going to come ask about it.
As long as the quantities are really in the hobby scale (like getting normal 0.5-1L bottles up to a 25L canister at max), I wouldn't stress such
things, especially if you're not storing them in urban center apartment.
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karlos³
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Yes it is highly unlikely.
If you only register for the VAT number(which is rather done at the tax office, "Finanzamt"), they don't even care about what sort of business you
have or not have.
That only becomes relevant for other things.
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Tsjerk
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When you apply for the Dutch number, a KvK number, they do ask what you are going to do, but only to register you in the correct catagory. It costs 50
euro, and if you just say you are self-employed in whatever profession no further questions are asked.
You can probably even say you are a contract chemist, then even when a supplier would bother checking your number they would see that profession.
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outer_limits
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Just another stupid regulation which won't change anything for people with bad intentions but will make some problems for chemists that have no
company.
I haven't read the full text - do they want to ban old types of car batteries, those which uses sulphuric acid? They need 30% or even more so it's
over limits.
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Ubya
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why the ban though? how many incidents caused from diy bombs happened in europe?
alcohol and tobacco kill way more, but those are not "chemicals" in the eye of an idiot, put the word acid and all hell breaks loose
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Refinery
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Laws have seldom to do with realities.
The business type is only for registration purposes, but naturally any company can do any kind of business, considering they have the proper
case-sensitive licenses if needed. There are a few controlled business types, like pharmaceutical, government contracts etc. where a special license
may be granted and background checks are needed.
For common chemist amateur, most any business type that regards any sort of material handling, treating, preparation, testing or other manipulation
warrants a plethora of plausible substances. Re-sale type business might not be a good idea, because some vendors might not want their products
distributed, hence it's a good idea to mention for the record that the reagents will be used within the company and they will not be distributed to
second hands.
Of course, re-sale can also bring liability issues - it is a fact that if a company sells some specialty equipment and it comes up in any criminal
investigation, they tend to contact in order to at least get a statement was there any reason for suspicion, and of course they'll want all records of
sale for investigating the participants. Actually, if a company sells anything that can be of interest for certain agencies, they may just show up and
request all the sales information for intelligence purposes if any interesting names come up. The nuisance of this is that the law enforcement tends
to be always sniffing for anything they can make case of, and storage and handling of dangerous goods is an excellent case to at least make your life
a little bit more miserable, if not else, at least with a little fine for any small negligence.
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Tsjerk
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40% of all explosives used in the EU during terrorist attacks are homemade. Professionals refilling car batteries can get a permit to use >15%
sulfuric acid.
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Ubya
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and how many attacks did we have?
i don't know what's the process to open a business in other countries, but in italy you need to pay taxes for that business every years, plus the
bureaucracy makes it a lenghty process.
every years i maybe spend 200 euros in chemicals and glassware, but if i need to also pay 300 euros of taxes because i'm a registered business would
be pretty annoying.
there's also the fact that pretty much amateur chemistry would be excluded for younger people, it will be like the chemistry kits you can buy now for
kids, sodium carbonate and maybe tartaric acid...
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Herr Haber
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Getting there... as soon as I get fired from my current job I'll have more time making a company and getting a registry number.
There's still one thing I do not know though. Will this be enough for purchases from other countries ?
More specifically: UK requires a licences that doesnt exist in my country. Can I, if I'm legit here buy from them ?
I guess I'll just have to ask the question to a UK supplier someday.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Tsjerk
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If you don't have any turnover you obviously don't pay taxes. I don't know about Italian tax office, but I had to fill out a 0 (online) for turnover
four times before getting a letter I only had to tell them when I actually had a turnover.
If you boil down 15% sulfuric, you get to 90% at some point. Potassium nitrate still only needs an intended use to be declared and 12% H2O2 can easily
be frozen. Chlorates and perchlorates can be made with some effort. So young chemists can still join the game, although being able to buy 96% acid and
30% peroxide was nice indeed.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ubya |
alcohol and tobacco kill way more, but those are not "chemicals" in the eye of an idiot, put the word acid and all hell breaks loose
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Well, if you put acid into my eyes of course all hell's gonna break loose !
The first round of bans was right after Breivik. I'm not convinced this second one is linked to terror. The first country I remember mentioning it was
the UK because of people punishing "honor crimes" with acid.
Anyway, the old DHMO joke still has a few days ahead.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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