Abromination
Hazard to Others
Posts: 432
Registered: 10-7-2018
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline
Mood: 1,4 tar
|
|
Hydrochloric Acid from Toilet Cleaner
I know that many brands of toilet bowl cleaner contain about a 10% solution of hydrochloric acid. It is hard to get cheap HCl where I live, but I was
wondering if I could just distill the HCl off from the toilet cleaner and leave all of the surfactants and
dyes behind. I know people do this with sulfuric acid from draim cleaner, but HCl exists as the gas hydrogen chloride. Would the water distil over
with it to give me a solution or would I end up flooding my lab with hydrogen chloride gas?
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4357
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
The water should also distill over. That being said, it's always a good idea to make sure you have proper ventilation anyway.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
The water and some HCl will distill over first, and the concentration will gradually increase to the azeotropic concentration. Once you reach the
azeotropic concentration, the temperature and concentration will plateau.
You won't need any special ventilation unless you accidentally flash boil some HCl or let your condenser get hot, but good ventilation is a good idea
anyway.
|
|
|
Cipher
banned
Posts: 9
Registered: 17-7-2018
Location: woelen disabled my posting and u2u privilegies
Member Is Offline
Mood: woelen disabled my posting and u2u privilegies
|
|
And if you care more about safety than concentration, best to distill it into some water, so gas will more likely dissolve.
Hope you are ready to deal with back-flow if it will occur.
|
|
|
Abromination
Hazard to Others
Posts: 432
Registered: 10-7-2018
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline
Mood: 1,4 tar
|
|
I was planning on having some distilled water in the collection flask anyways. Ive heard of people doing similar things with formic acid from oven
cleaner and flooding their labs with fumes so yes, safety over concentration.
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
|
|
happyfooddance
National Hazard
Posts: 530
Registered: 9-11-2017
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If your acid is under 20.2% by weight, there is a precisely 0.0% chance of suckback.
For safety, I would just do a titration (however crude) to make sure.
There is no reason to put water in the recieving flask.
|
|
|
Abromination
Hazard to Others
Posts: 432
Registered: 10-7-2018
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline
Mood: 1,4 tar
|
|
When I get a chance, I will do a titration. By weight the Lysol toilet cleaner I plan to use is supposed to be 12% by weight. I honestly am expecting
it to be plus or minus 6%. Lucky for me, I don't need concentrated HCl.
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
|
|
CharlieA
National Hazard
Posts: 646
Registered: 11-8-2015
Location: Missouri, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I must be missing something here; what is the relationship of composition to suckback?
|
|
|
happyfooddance
National Hazard
Posts: 530
Registered: 9-11-2017
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Suckback is caused by gases (like HCl) which are highly soluble in a liquid, and said gases being evolved at a slower rate than they are adsorbed,
thus creating a vacuum.
But we are not talking about HCl(g), we are talking about aqueous HCl, which forms a maximum boiling (108.5°C) azeotrope with water that is 20.2% HCl
by weight. If you boil a solution that is less than 20.2%, as JJay mentioned it will come over in a lower concentration than what is in the boiling
pot until the concentration of the boiling pot reaches 20.2%. So unless you are distilling concentrated HCl there is no way to get HCl(g), hence no
suckback.
Also, if he is distilling in a normal setup, not a bubbler, there is no possibility of suckback anyway... Just putting a little water in a recieving
flask can never cause suckback.
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2539
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
Toilet bowl cleaner often contains thickeners and surfactants, in addition to HCl. (Different brands may vary.) Distillation might cause a lot of
foaming, so you should use an appropriately sized vessel.
|
|
|
Abromination
Hazard to Others
Posts: 432
Registered: 10-7-2018
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline
Mood: 1,4 tar
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Metacelsus  | | Toilet bowl cleaner often contains thickeners and surfactants, in addition to HCl. (Different brands may vary.) Distillation might cause a lot of
foaming, so you should use an appropriately sized vessel. |
Good Idea. Strong stirring would be a good idea as well to keep foaming to a minimum. Would boiling stones be necessary?
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
|
|
happyfooddance
National Hazard
Posts: 530
Registered: 9-11-2017
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Boiling stones aren't necessary if you have decent stirring; however, a few small ones shouldn't hurt (as long as they don't interfere with the
stirring).
|
|
|
Abromination
Hazard to Others
Posts: 432
Registered: 10-7-2018
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline
Mood: 1,4 tar
|
|
Boiling stones aren't necessary if you have decent stirring; however, a few small ones shouldn't hurt (as long as they don't interfere with the
stirring).[/rquote]
Now that I think of it, the stir bar would act rather like a boilingstone itself. Also, you have a fair point. It would be difficult to use boiling
stones with a stir bar.
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
|
|
VSEPR_VOID
National Hazard
Posts: 719
Registered: 1-9-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fullerenes
|
|
I recommend buying some sodium bisulfate or sulfuric acid. Distilling a dry mixture of bisulfate, or concentration sulfuric acid, will yield hydrogen
chloride. It would be much faster and cheaper than toilet bowl cleaning.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sodium-Bisulfate-NaHSO4-Minimum-of-...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pool-Breeze-Sodium-Bisulfate-Swimmi...
Within cells interlinked
Within cells interlinked
Within cells interlinked
|
|
|
TesTube
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 18-7-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think you forgot something 
|
|
|
Abromination
Hazard to Others
Posts: 432
Registered: 10-7-2018
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline
Mood: 1,4 tar
|
|
[rquote I think you forgot something [/rquote]
I agree
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
