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chromium
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Why DMF is controlled?
I plan to purchase some dimethyl formamide for experiments in home lab. I have friendly supplyer who has it in catalogue and probably will sell it to
me.
I know that DMF is in lists of controlled substances but are there some particular reasons for this? Will it seem especially suspicious if one wants
to have it?
I know it can be used ( as many other organic solvents ) for illegal extractions and as reaction environment for various legal and illegal syntheses.
Is this all bad it has or are there more straight connections with drug making or other illegal activities? (If so then i will better give up)
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Sandmeyer
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At least in EU the reason is since it is classified as a poison.
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bio2
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.........I know that DMF is in lists of controlled substances...............
Don't know your country but this is not correct. Don't believe everything you hear and then take as fact go to the source which is easy
with the internet.
Controlled Substances are prescription drugs with very few exceptions.
Listed Essential Chemicals do not include DMF which is a common lab solvent. and are not illegal to own or purchase. Selling requires 2 years record
keeping and each has a thresh-hold amount.
The UN countries are party to this list thru treaty. They are listed here to try and clear the confusion and endless nonsense which is posted on this
topic.
List I
1. N-Acetylanthranilic acid
2. Anthranilic acid
3. Benzaldehyde
4. Benzyl cyanide
5. Ephedrine
6. Ergonovine
7. Ergotamine
8. Ethylamide
9. gamma-Butyrolactone (GBL)
10. Hydriodic acid
11. Hypophosphorous acid
12. Isosafrole
13. Methylamine
14. 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone
15. N-Methylephedrine
16. N-Methylpseudoephedrine
17. Nitroethane
18. Norpseudoephedrine
19. Phenylacetic acid
20. Phenylpropanolamine
21. Phosphorous (Red)
22. Phosphorous (white or yellow)
23. Piperidine
24. Piperonal
25. Propionic anhydride
26. Pseudoephedrine
27. Safrole
List II
28. Acetic anhydride
29. Acetone
30. Benzyl chloride
31. Ethyl ether
32. Hydrochloric acid
32a. Hydrogen chloride gas
33. Iodine
34. Methyl ethyl ketone (2-Butanone)
35. Methyl isobutyl ketone
36. Potassium permanganate
37. Sulfuric acid
38. Toluene
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bio2
Listed Essential Chemicals do not include DMF which is a common lab solvent. and are not illegal to own or purchase. |
Chloroform and benzene are also common lab-solvents, but as an individual you can't buy them -- at least not in EU. I have heard that certain
american meth "chemists" use "freon" as a extraction solvent in their shitty ephedrine reductions (due to attreactive B.P). Some
people are really like made for DEA.
[Edited on 6-10-2005 by Sandmeyer]
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vulture
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Listed substances does not necessarily mean they are drug precursors.
Sodium cyanide isn't a drug precursor, yet buying it will raise suspicion, don't you think?
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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chromium
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vulture
Listed substances does not necessarily mean they are drug precursors.
Sodium cyanide isn't a drug precursor, yet buying it will raise suspicion, don't you think? |
Yes, but to prove that i have no intention do poison anybody may be easyer than to prove that i have no intention to make drugs.
Thanks to everyone though.
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bio2
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......Listed substances does not necessarily mean they are drug precursors. ..........
Thankyou for saying that.
EU laws I am not familiar with but what it boils down to is if you will buy chemicals then a relationship has to be built with preferably a local
supplier.
In todays climate liability is a major concern to chemical dealers but I seriously doubt there is a LAW prohibiting the sale of benzene to individuals
this is a policy of most companies.
If there are ridiculous laws like these then starting a company as a sole proprietor is very easy I have only once in 15years been asked "what
do you want that for?" but then I am a legitimate small research company and don't walk in as some dumbass to order something I
don't know how to use..
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gorilla
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"Chloroform and benzene are also common lab-solvents, but as an individual you can't buy them -- at least not in EU"
This is patently false: you can.
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BromicAcid
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A better question would be "Why is DMF so expensive?" The cheapest that I found it from my normal sources is $25 for 100 ml, pretty steep
in my book, although a 55 gal drum was only $2300, a steal! 
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The_Davster
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Wow Bromic, expensive from your source. If I were so inclined, and had a use for it, I could get it for 30something/L.
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gorilla
"Chloroform and benzene are also common lab-solvents, but as an individual you can't buy them -- at least not in EU"
This is patently false: you can. |
In my country, as a non-corporation you can't, and I live in Eu. The practical enforcement of the market restrictions seem to varie between
member-states, I'm sure there is a difference in situation between Poland and Norway. But according to: http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/chemicals/legislation/m...
Chloroform may not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 % by weight in substances and preparations placed on the market for sale
to the general public and/or in diffusive applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning of [...]
It's in the same regulation place as tetrachloromethane.
Benzene:
May not be used in concentrations equal to, or greater than, 0,1 % by mass in substances or preparations placed on the market. However, this
provision shall not apply to:
(a) motor fuels which are covered by Directive 85/210/EEC;
(b) substances and preparations for use in industrial processes not allowing for the emission of benzene in quantities in excess of those laid down in
existing legislation;
(c) waste covered by Directives 75/442/EEC (4) and 78/319/EEC (5).
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gorilla
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I think that the EU regulations restrict the use of various compounds within products for general sale. It is not illegal to sell the compounds as is.
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unionised
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Did you read this
"Chloroform may not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 % by weight in substances and preparations placed on the market for
sale to the general public and/or in diffusive applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning of [...] "?
I only ask because that is precisely the piece of legislation that does ban the sale of chloroform to members of the public.
Chloroform is greater than 0.1% chloroform.
BTW, I think DMF is frowned upon because it can be used (together with POCl3) to formylate activated benzene rings, and that is a stage in the
synthesis of some drugs. I'm not certain of the details, but it gets a lot of mentions in Pihkal.
[Edited on 7-10-2005 by unionised]
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gorilla
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"Did you read this"Chloroform may not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 % by weight in substances and preparations
placed on the market for sale to the general public and/or in diffusive applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning of [...] "?
I only ask because that is precisely the piece of legislation that does ban the sale of chloroform to members of the public.
Chloroform is greater than 0.1% chloroform.
"
Of course I read it. Did you not understand my point? Chloroform sales are not prohibited to private persons.
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KidCurry
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I live in the EU, if a company were to sell chloroform to an individual (unless he/she has a permit) they would loose their license pretty quickly.
I.e, it is prohibited here.
[Edited on 8-10-2005 by KidCurry]
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unionised
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Gorrila, keep reading it until you understand it. (Or get someone to explain it to you.)
It is forbidden to sell chloroform to individuals in the EU and that's the bit of legislation that forbids it.
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JustMe
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Reaching way back here regarding the original question... correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but if memory serves, I believe
that DMF is a solvent that (at one time) was one of the more desirable one's to use for synthesizing hallucinogens. But as I said, relying on
memory from something I read in the 1970's.
So that is one reason it would be controlled.
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JustMe
Reaching way back here regarding the original question... correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but if memory serves, I believe
that DMF is a solvent that (at one time) was one of the more desirable one's to use for synthesizing hallucinogens. But as I said, relying on
memory from something I read in the 1970's.
So that is one reason it would be controlled. |
Speculations, speculations, it has nothing to do with drug synthesis, DMF is under poison schedule: http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/DI/N,N-dimethylformamide.html hence a simple citizen can't purchase it.
It is more common to find a formylation procedure using N-methylformanilide associated with drug synthesis, than it is using DMF, yet capitalist
lackeys have not put either on a precursor list, distinguish poison schedule from precursor 'schedule'.
https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/07860.htm
https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/44863
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unionised
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DMF isn't very toxic compared to plenty of other chemicals. (Oral LD 50 in rats 2800 mg /Kg, about twice as toxic as methanol or eth glycol,
though LD50s don't tell the whole story).
I couldn't find it on the poisons list
(here's a copy http://www.tameside.gov.uk/licensing/poisons.htm)
Google found no pages with the phrase "poisons rules" and the word formamide.
On the other hand, it found plenty of references to formamide and "controlled substance", including some which point out that posesion of
DMF and ergot is a felony in New York.
What did you mean by "speculations speculations"?
[Edited on 9-10-2005 by unionised]
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gorilla
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"Gorrila, keep reading it until you understand it. (Or get someone to explain it to you.)
It is forbidden to sell chloroform to individuals in the EU and that's the bit of legislation that forbids it."
Son, nowhere does it explicitly forbid the sale of chloroform to individuals. Besides if you actually read the document, particularly article 2, you
will see that exceptions that allow listed substances to be marketd and sold. Do you have difficulty maintaining stable relationships? I just
wondered.
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unionised
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Article 2 says
Member States shall take all neccessary (SIC!necessary)measures to
ensure that the dangerous substances and preparations listed in the
Annex may only be placed on the market or used subject to the
conditions specified therein.Such restrictions shall not apply to
marketing or use for Research and Development or analysis purposes.
In order to buy the stuff you would need to persuade the supplier that you are undertaking research and I think any individual would struggle with
that- some small companies would too.
Chloroform
-
May not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than
0,1 %by weight in substances and preparations placed on
the market for sale to the general public and/or in diffusive
applications such as in surface cleaning and cleaning
fabrics.
Without prejudice to the application of other Community
provisions on the classification,packaging and labelling of
dangerous substances and preparations,the packaging of
such substances and preparations containing them in
concentrationsequal to or greater than 0,1 %shall be
legible and indelibly marked as follows:詮or use in
industrial installations only ・
By way of derogation this provision shall not apply to:
(a)medicinal or veterinary productsasdefined by Directive
65/65/EEC (13 ),aslast amended by Directive 93/39/
EEC (14 );
(b)cosmetic products as defined by Directive 76/768/
EEC (15 ),aslast amended by Directive 93/35/EEC (16 )."
OK, that's a bit long winded and has some bits that aren't important here. Cut those out and you are left with
"Chloroform
May not be used in concentrations equal to or greater than
0,1 %by weight in substances "..."on
the market for sale to the general public "
" substances and preparations containing" [chloroform and such] "in
concentrations equal to or greater than 0,1 %shall be
legible and indelibly marked as follows:'For use in
industrial installations only '
"
I really don't see that as leaving much scope for selling chloroform OTC. Possibly as a drug, but you would need a prescription at least.
The only people I really have a problem maintaining relationships with are those who call me "son" without being qualified.
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gorilla
"Gorrila, keep reading it until you understand it. (Or get someone to explain it to you.)
It is forbidden to sell chloroform to individuals in the EU and that's the bit of legislation that forbids it."
Son, nowhere does it explicitly forbid the sale of chloroform to individuals. Besides if you actually read the document, particularly article 2, you
will see that exceptions that allow listed substances to be marketd and sold. Do you have difficulty maintaining stable relationships? I just
wondered. |
Benzene and chloroform are under market restrictions, a company can't legally sell it to an individual without a permit, how many times do you
need to hear it?
| Quote: | | DMF isn't very toxic compared to plenty of other chemicals. (Oral LD 50 in rats 2800 mg /Kg, about twice as toxic as methanol or eth glycol,
though LD50s don't tell the whole story). |
It's a law, don't expect it to make any sence...
| Quote: | | What did you mean by "speculations speculations"? |
I mean what I said - DMF regulation has nothing to do with "the synthesis of halluciongens". Have you seen the EU-list of drug-precursors?
DMF is not even on the american list of watched substances nor drug precursors.
| Quote: | Google found no pages with the phrase "poisons rules" and the word formamide.
On the other hand, it found plenty of references to formamide and "controlled substance", including some which point out that posesion of
DMF and ergot is a felony in New York. |
There are many formamides, like N-methyl formamide and it is used in the Leuckart process to make meth and MDMA, it is a watched chemical hence your
google hits, DMF has nothing to do with it. It is possible that possesing ergot and DMF is a felony in USA, in some places there (and possibly in
Saudia Arabia) it's a felony to posess a 3-necked flask.
[Edited on 9-10-2005 by Sandmeyer]
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gorilla
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As I suggested in the first place: some substances are restricted for marketing and sale in consumer products. A private individual can however buy
these substances quite legally. This is why there are several suppliers who will sell chloroform for example to the private individual in the UK. I
know of several in Germany too.
This seems to be what the law states and what experience shows. Good enough for me.
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by gorilla
This seems to be what the law states and what experience shows. Good enough for me. |
That's what I ment by saying that the situation in practice regarding the enforcement of the legislation is likely to vary between
member states. It is possible that you could buy it. In my country I could never buy these compounds. Cocaine is also fully possible to buy, it does
not mean it is legal to sell it.
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Ramiel
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Legislation is only ever a list of <html><i>prohibitions</i> and therefore, any activity not prohibited by legislation is legal. The
sale of cocaine to anyone is illegal because there are specific laws in place prohibiting its sale and possession.
The phrase "placed on the market for sale to the general public" is probably the point of contention here, right? This is fairly definitely
termed as a lawyer may say - it doesn't leave any wriggle-room. So if one was to say "this item is not 'marketed' to the
'general public'" then I would assume that it would be legal.
I believe there is an analogous problem with the law when people are giving away Marijuana... where the possession may not be criminal - and police
can't enforce the criminal code pertaining to the sale of an 'illicit substance'. Rather clever really.
Caveat Orator
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