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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
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Thread merge & split
because I thought those novel compounds from the paper Quince dug out fit well into this thread.
Because of the broad nature of this thread, I also moved the details on glyoxal synthesis to this location, as this truly is a subject that merits its own attention.
If the subject on glyoxal condensations and energetics thereof is followed up (i.e. with experiments) I'll be happy to move the respective posts
to a new dedicated thread.
So please, any major details/methods relating to particular compound discussed in this thread belong into a dedicated one, else it just gets
unmanagable!
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Chris The Great
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I was in the middle of making an image of some compounds I found for my post, and when I previewed, everything crashed and I lost my post since you
have stuck the topics together! Acck! Anyway, it wasn't that long, so here it is:
I was reading through a recent military document, and found information on two very interesting compounds they are currently researching, DTTO and
IsoDTTO. Both have the formula C<sub>2</sub>N<sub>8</sub>O<sub>4</sub>. They have high densities (2.419 and
2.484). high heats of formation (179.5 and 175.7 kcal/mol) and astounding detonation pressures of 131.4 and 131.8 GPa! This puts HMX (38.2GPa) and
even tetranitrotetrahedrane (51.2GPa) to shame! These explosives would be brisant to the extreme, and substantially more powerful than any other
explosive made!
Here is a picture of their structures:
http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/6791/dtto9sb.jpg
[Edited on 5-9-2005 by Chris The Great]
[Edited on 5-9-2005 by Chris The Great]
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((Blasta))
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I too have heard of this explosive as well. But, I am curious how it is manufactured. I remember a physics prof talking about an explosive that was
one of the most powerful ever made, but it could not be manufactured in a standard atmosphere---it had to be inside a vaccum.
use caution---explosives in transport
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Chris The Great
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It isn't manufactured, and there are lots of possible routes but I personally think none of them will work. I'll put them up into a graphic
tommorrow, they all start from glyoxal, interestingly. Again, I don't think they'll work.
The reason is that the nitrogen rings with the two oxygens are very stable (surprisingly). The charges can resonate, forming alternating positive and
negative charges around the ring, greatly stabilizing it. The nitrogen ring without oxygen simply doesn't form and if it does it immediatly
decomposes into nitrogen and alkynes. With one oxygen, the ring has moderate stability, and with two it turns out to be very stable.
All proposed methods that I am aware of involve the ring or rings having only one oxygen at some point, and so I think the methods will probably fail.
Who knows though, perhaps a method will oxidize the ring before it has a chance to decompose?
But, it's late and school starts tommorrow.
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Ramiel
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Review Article
<html>I see that an article reviewing the syntheses of DTTO <i>and</i> iso-DTTO has just been approved for public release. Now, if
someone can verify that this article; “<a href="http://www.stormingmedia.us/23/2330/A233034.html"> Synthesis of 1,2,3,4-Tetrazines,
1,2,3,4-Tetrazine Di-N-oxides, Pentazole Derivatives, Pentazine Poly-N-oxides, and Nitroacetylenes</a>”<sup> 1</sup>, is what it
says it is – a DARPA/AFOSR generated review – then perhaps we can decide if it is worth getting, and if so, find a way to acquire it.
Its USD$22.95 to buy a PDF for Joe Citizen, but perhaps there are persons who can legally acquire the document (although I wouldn’t recommend
violating EULA-type agreements or committing corporate espionage upon a site that claims to be a Pentagon publisher!)
<sup>1</sup> Harold Shechter, M. Venugopal, D. Srinivasulu. 2003, ‘Synthesis of 1,2,3,4-Tetrazines, 1,2,3,4-Tetrazine Di-N-oxides,
Pentazole Derivatives, Pentazine Poly-N-oxides, and Nitroacetylenes’, <i>Ohio State University Columbus Dept. of Chemistry</i>, Report
Number A233034, 60 p.p.
</html>
Caveat Orator
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Chris The Great
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It is a general overview of the methods that don't work, and what methods they are probably trying right now. It also includes some information
on other compounds but the main focus is DTTO and isDTTO. Yes, it is a DARPA/AFOSR related presentation, it is basically the overheads from some
presentation. There is lots of writing on it, so there is a fair amount of information. I can also access it for free from a undisclosed source, but
I'd rather it not went the way of the kewl-swarmed source, sorry guys  (but
feel free to PM if you need something specific, I'll try to get it for you)
http://rapidshare.de/files/4807062/Synthesis_of_High_Energy_...
1,671KB
Here are some other files related to the subject of recent high energy materials (non-DARPA/AFOSR stuff, originally from a roguesci torrent).
Here is a review on recent energetic materials, it was an interesting read, and is a good way to see what has been going on recently in the field:
http://rapidshare.de/files/4807149/New_Energetic_Materials.p...
1,989KB
Another similar journal, with some other energetic materials.
http://rapidshare.de/files/4807181/A_review_of_energetic_mat...
283KB
[Edited on 6-9-2005 by Chris The Great]
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akinmad
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tetranitro-propane diurea
I don't know if this substance is covered here (UTFSE yields no results). But while I was reviewing the New Energetic Materials.pdf I saw a
substance called tetranitro-propane diurea (p16 shows the structure). The last column states that it's easy to prepare and has a very high VOD
(9030) and good thermal stability.
While searching the net, I came across an article about the preparation of this substance.
http://doi.wiley.com/10.1002/1521-4087(200104)26:2%3C63::AID-PREP63%3E3.3.CO;2-V
Name of the article is Synthesis, Characterization and Thermal Behaviour of 2,4,6,8-Tetranitro-2,4,6,8-Tetraazabicyclo[3.3.1]Nonane-3,7-Dione (TNPDU)
and one of its Methylene Analogues
A. K. Sikder, G. M. Bhokare, D. B. Sarwade, J. P. Agrawal *
Its abstract states that :
2,4,6,8 - Tetranitro - 2,4,6,8 - tetraazabicyclo[3.3.1]nonane-3,7-dione (TNPDU) has been synthesized from propane diurea by nitration with nitric
acid-acetic anhydride with a yield of 85 %. The molecular structure of the compound has been determined by elemental analysis, IR and 1H-NMR
spectroscopy. Some of the properties including thermal and explosion delay behaviour of the compound and its mixtures with high explosives, are
reported. An analogous compound 2,5,7,9-tetranitro-2,5,7,9-tetraazabicyclo[4.3.0]nonane-8-one (TNABN) has also been evaluated for some of the
explosive properties considering its good stability and insensitiveness as compared to other nitrodiurea derivatives.
What is the cons and pros of this substance and can somebody who has access to this article upload it to the rapidshare?
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S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
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here
A short time after I last mentioned PEP, it was removed from the library catalog and the list of journals, and UTFSE there is fruitless. Other Wiley
journals are not affected, leaving me to wonder if they got an email from Wiley, I don't see how else this could have happened. It is still
obtainable, however.
DUHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:
It has been pointed out to me that I uploaded the wrong pdf, starting on page 75 instead of 63. It has been corrected.
The S.C. stands for "Space Cadet" and although this name was chosen as a sort of homage to Wack, I will be the first to admit that it
applies, perhaps more often than for most people.
[Edited on 8-9-2005 by S.C. Wack]
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franklyn
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Octanitrocubane
http://cst-www.nrl.navy.mil/%7Erichards/projects/slr1.html
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deiki
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I had found this few months ago, but I never seen it mentionned here:
http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2000/OSD/PE0603225D.pdf
"Polymeric carbon monoxide, the first of a new and potentially very interesting class of metastable High Energy Density Materials (HEDM) was
synthesized under very high pressure and temperature in the laboratory and recovered for characterization at ambient conditions. Energy content of
this class of materials is predicted to exceed that of known high explosives by a factor of 2 to 4."
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franklyn
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Polycarbonyl monomer
is metastable at ambient conditions and is synthesized by compressing liquid carbon monoxide at
pressures exceeding 5GPa , that's 50,000 atmospheres. Fairly straight forward and easier to make
than suboxide of carbon ( C3O2 ). Now if we can only peroxidate this 
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0112/0112068.pdf
and same here _
http://www.i-b-r.org/docs/polycarweb.pdf#search=%22polycarbo...
http://www.ictp.trieste.it/~pub_off/preprints-sources/1998/I...
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franklyn
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Yup works with CO2 also
CO2 glass
http://www.newscientisttech.com/article.ns?id=dn9339&fee...
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Sauron
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The REALLY amazing thing about that article is that some gullible reporter bought the notion that an explosive based on hydrazine, proven human
carcinogen, is somehow environmentally friendly, what a laugh. TOXIC Al2O3!! that's alumina. Toxic alumina and green hydrazine. ROTF!
Or that a propellant mix that is LESS detectable by radar or satellite is somehow a Good Thing. It might be someone's good thing and someone else's
Very Bad Thing all depending on which way it in pointed!
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Axt
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Axt
I'm attaching the article relating to NM-glyoxal condensation to dinitroinositol. Which is run at low temp, excess NM and precipitates from methanol
solution. Hopefully that means further condensation is possible. In the very least it does present an easy method for retrieving a pure product from
the condensation reaction.
<a href="http://scipic.ft100.net/images/dinitroinositol.pdf">Cyclizations of Dialdehydes with Nitromethane. VII. Preparation of
neo-Inosadiamine- 1,4</a> |
OK, just ran across the nitration product of dinitroinositol in <a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7518">Organic
Chemistry of Explosives</a>, yeh it will form the tetranitrate but the book contradicts its reference, the patent reference GB1107907 says only
1 nitrate group can be introduced via HNO3/H2SO4 and four with HNO3/AcO, where the book says both give the tetranitrate. Supposedly the tetranitrate
is too sensitive for practical use but the dinitrate has "significantly better properties" and must have been interesting enough to be studied by
Lawrence Livermore Labs as its designated "LLM-101". It can be made by HNO3/chloroform nitration.
It doesnt look it, but accordring to LLNL its energy is estimated to be simular to HMX  Must be more dense then it looks (though they dont define "energy". Its a simple reaction but crappy yields of dinitroinositol from NM +
glyoxal.
[Edited on 2-6-2007 by Axt]
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Mardec
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Axt
It can be made by HNO3/chloroform nitration.
[Edited on 2-6-2007 by Axt] |
Is a chloroform / HNO3 nitration the same as a DCM/HNO3 nitration?
And can CHCl3 extract HNO3 from a watery solution like DCM?
Or did I misunderstood?
I am currently working on HNO3 100% through DCM, but DCM is a problem for me, where as Chloroform is easely available form me.
[Edited on 3-6-2007 by Mardec]
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Axt
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Yes and Yes, though HNO3 is less soluble in chloroform then DCM, you will still need a dehydrating agent as I assume water is more soluble in DCM/HNO3
then DCM alone.
A progress report by LLNL mentions that diluting the HNO3 helps prevent the tetranitrate but not entirely and that the tetranitrate "is a very
sensitive material and should never be isolated dry". Though the dinitrate is insensitive and of interest because "of its energy, which is estimated
to be simular to that of HMX. LLM-101 also has an exceptionally high temperature at the Chapman-Jouguet state". Its also a potential precursor to high
energy polymers.
[Edited on 4-6-2007 by Axt]
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The_Davster
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Axt
<a href="http://mihd.net/g4c6io">Organic Chemistry of Explosives</a>, |
I have just spent the last couple days reading that pretty much cover to cover, seeing as this is the 'New energetic materials' thread, that book
covers much of the weird and wonderful energetics. Best overview of the recent developments I have seen. Fascinating sections on nitrogen
heterocycles.
[Edited on 5-6-2007 by The_Davster]
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woelen
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The link you quoted does not work. It asks for a password and both the whimsy and references passwords do not work. After login it tells me this is a
non-existent subforum. Could you (or Axt) give a working link of that book?
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Axt
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Link work for me but kmno4 originally found and uploaded it to here: http://mihd.net/g4c6io
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The_Davster
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http://mihd.net/g4c6io
How strange, at the time I found that link it took me to the right place.
The link has now been edited
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h0lx
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
...that an explosive based on hydrazine, proven human carcinogen, is somehow environmentally friendly, what a laugh... |
it is. It decomposes to H2O and N2, when burned. A crash would be a whole another thing.
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DeAdFX
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Hydrazine is rather reactive towards oxygen shouldn't the stuff convert to H2O/N2 after a few weeks or so?
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Phel
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The Sila-Explosives Si(CH2N3)4 and Si(CH2ONO2)4: Silicon Analogues of the Common Explosives Pentaerythrityl Tetraazide, C(CH2N3)4, and
Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate, C(CH2ONO2)4
Thomas M. Klapötke, Burkhard Krumm, Rainer Ilg, Dennis Troegel, and Reinhold Tacke
attached
Attachment: ja071299p.pdf (951kB)
This file has been downloaded 13313 times
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franklyn
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Phel
The Sila-Explosives : Silicon Analogues of the Common Explosives |
That's really cool , I thought for a long time about attaching oxy radicals to
silicones. To bad these " are extremely shock-sensitive materials and very
difficult to handle ".
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franklyn
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Alternate Propulsion Energy Sources
Take a walk on the wild side and read about speculative schemes for energetic materials
Metastable Helium , Free radical Hydrogen , Ultra cold neutron cataylsed fission , and so on.
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=B088771&Locat...
Advanced Propulsion Concepts
AFRPL-TR-72-31 , JUN 1972 , AD0750554
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD750554
or here _
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=0750554&Locat...
Abstract:
A study was conducted by an ad hoc group within the Air Force Rocket
Propulsion Laboratory during the calendar year of 1970 in an attempt to predict
the major propulsion developments that may occur in the next 30 to 40 years.
The report evaluates the future of conventional chemical rocketry based on
thermodynamic principles and revolutionary conceptual approaches to system
applications. Advanced concepts falling under the general headings of Thermal,
Field and Photon Propulsion are evaluated to a degree necessary to define their
potential.
The above was an earlier assessment of ongoing research in propulsion schemes which
reminds me ( though somewhat off topic ) of the subsequent Breakthrough Propulsion
Physics investigation that follows _
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/research/warp/warp.html
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/index.html
ABSTRACT:
In 1996, NASA established the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program to seek the ultimate
breakthroughs in space transportation: propulsion that requires no propellant mass, propulsion
that attains the maximum transit speeds physically possible, and breakthrough methods of
energy production to power such devices. Topics of interest include experiments and theories
regarding the coupling of gravity and electromagnetism, vacuum fluctuation energy, warp
drives and wormholes, and superluminal quantum effects. Because these propulsion goals are
presumably far from fruition, a special emphasis is to identify affordable, near-term, and
credible research that could make measurable progress toward these propulsion goals. The
methods of the program and the results of the 1997 workshop are presented.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/1997-J_AIAA_SpaceDr.pdf
1 9 9 8
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/1998/TM-1998-208400.pdf
2 0 0 5
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/2005-J_ANYAS_AssessBPP.pdf
A lighter primer on some proposals _
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Propulsion_Physics...
Alcubierre Warp drive _
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive
Unproven or discounted ideas _
Go here _
http://web.archive.org
and enter this
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/ComnErr.html
Jun 03, 2004 , is the last update
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