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THErAPIST
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most appropriate material to topple tree
Heya folks. Little back story. I haven't experimented with anything energetic in the last ooooh 12 years or so past the odd reactive rifle target, so
i'm looking for a few opinions I can trust. I'm older,Ii respect my life a little more, and I care about my limbs and I'd rather get all the info I
need before I make any decisions
Anyway I've got a large oak tree with 2 extremely large dead pine trees lying ontop of it. There's zero way to safely cut the tree down without
calling in professionals who will want something near 6 grand give or take to climb the trees. This is at a private golf course and its a danger to
golfers (already had a couple close calls with falling branches)
So. I have keys to this place and can do what I need to do with nobody around. We're set well away from the public. While this tree needs to come
down, I'd rather not use something with a low vod, which takes options like redneck exploding target tree demolition off the table. Id like to use
something a little more brisant so i can hopefully avoid hurling huge chunks of tree all over and be a little more sure that it'll come down. I can
put whatever I need to inside the tree to maximize effects. (I've already cut a block out of the center)
My real options are ETN, picric acid, or ammonium picrate. I have everything needed for ETN and its relative ease to make is attractive but in my
overly cautious state I'm fairly nervous about its sensitivity. I'm no clumsy fool that's gonna throw it around but I keep reading conflicting reports
about how sensitive it is, and I've read plenty of stories about some kid maiming himself. How sensitive is it exactly? Stable enough to make a couple
hundred grams? stable enough to have loose in a ziplock without it getting unhappy about being shaken about? god I shudder at the thought but
compared to the sensitivity of HMTD?
Also I have some commercial caps but they're on the weaker side and I was thinking about making a small booster charge of ETN anyway if i went for
something like Ammonium picrate.
I get that ETN would likely benefit from being recrystalized and stabilized with urea but how much does that help to stabilize? I'm not really looking
to keep the stuff around and I'm not really looking to melt cast it because that seems kinda sketchy but I could manage if need be
ooooor does anyone have a better option for something I could shatter the base of the tree with that doesnt require a full lab setup? I've got a hot
plate, a buchner funnel, tripple beam scale, and some lab glassware but that's about it these days since I gave up on chemistry.
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clearly_not_atara
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Put ropes on the tree, securely anchored, then cut the base. It can't fall down until you release the ropes.
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violet sin
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Chainsaw, judiciously applied is an outstanding answer. I like the ropes, but add a truck in there for good measure. One is inclined to think
explosives are uncalled for = your basically creating excuses to play.
[Edited on 6-2-2018 by violet sin]
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j_sum1
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Predictability is what you want in a scenario like this. That's what people pay the pros big bucks for. The scenario you don't want is one where the
tree is not felled but visibly weakened such that it is dangerous to approach. Th that end you want to avoid explosives. Leave those for removing the
stump.
One good solution can be to affix a long sturdy rope as high in the tree as possible. Then attach the other end to a truck/dozer/tractor or some other
heavy vehicle - at a sufficient distance that the tree cannot fall on it. Then drive forward to put some tension on the rope. Cut with a saw
alternating with applying more tension. This way there is no one near the stump when the tree goes over. Again, the kick-back at the stump during
felling is also unpredictable to a non-pro. That's the location where trees kill people.
This method minimises the risk and enables reasonably precise felling. I have done some quite large trees with a car and hand saw this way.
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Vomaturge
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I think that we could figure out even safer, better solutions with more information. For instance:
Approximately How tall/wide is the tree? If it's 10 m high, 50 cm at base, that's way easier for DIY removal than 50 m high and 2 m wide.
We know you have access to the golf course, but do you have specific permission to remove the tree at a given time?
Assuming that the tree needs to be taken away after you have felled it, what equipment/vehicles do you have or need? They might also come in handy for
the actual felling, as well. Again, this part depends on the tree's size and weight.
What kind of tools (rigging, chainsaws, etc) do you have? Do you know how to use them safely and effectively?
These are just questions to help us understand the situation, and give appropriate advice. Nothing personal, at all.
Now, for my own preliminary advice. I've never cut down a tree thicker than 7-10 cm diameter, and the only high explosive I've set off were "pop-it"
fireworks, so I don't really know WTF I'm talking about, and you probably shouldn't take my advice to seriously.
I think the ideas of cutting the tree while directing its fall with ropes are sound, although it's hard to tell since I'm inexperienced in this and
don't know all the details of your situation.
Always be aware of where the tree could fall, where pieces could shift once it falls, etc.
Try not to cut in places where the cut will squeeze shut and pinch your sawblade. This will make it hard to cut, and might also break the saw or even
injure you.
I know that practical applications of explosives are not really supposed to be discussed here, but I will give some thoughts on what I've read and
watched. I tend to agree with everyone else-I don't think you should blow it up.
Just because you use an explosive with a high detonation velocity does not guarantee that there will be no big pieces of flying debris. Don't count on
anything within at least a few hundred meters being safe.
Depending on how big the tree is, the explosion might not fell it completely. Now you have a dangerous situation where it could fall any minute. Also
something to keep in mind when you have to estimate the charge.
If it's on a golf course, lots of people will know exactly how you got rid of the tree. If you use an explosion, some will also just know that you
made a bomb and blew up something or another in the golf course. DON'T EVEN THINK Of blowing it up unless you're 100% SURE it's legal, and everyone
will be cool with it.
In general, as cool as it would be, an explosive demolition is probably not the kind you need here.
However you plan on getting rid of this tree, only do it yourself if you have the mindset, skill set, and tool set to do it safely. Your life and
health are worth more than $6000.
Good luck!
[Edited on 6-2-2018 by Vomaturge]
[Edited on 6-2-2018 by Vomaturge]
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aga
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If it's Golf Course, $6,000 is peanuts, especially if the trees endanger the paying customers.
Let the pros do what they do so well.
i.e. Survive the event and dispose of the huge mass of wood that would definitely get in the way of those little white balls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FRKU4RmeD0
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joseph6355
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You don't have to blow it up. Its a tree.
If the only problem is falling branches, just cut the tree a bit below them.
Blowing it up with brisant explosives isn't a good idea at all. There would be wood fragments flying at all directions and very fast. It would
certainly pose a danger to anyone close to it.
Cut the tree. It isn't hard or unsafe to do, unless it is a huge one.
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Fulmen
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If you read the first post more closely you'll see he's talking about an oak with two fallen pines on top. That's a big and dangerous mess to handle
with a chain saw. Now I don't know how big this oak is, and I certainly won't address the legality of such an adventure, but explosives could be the
simplest and safest approach. Around here they routinely use explosives to clear fallen trees from power lines, fallen trees can be extremely
dangerous to work with.
I do agree that non-explosive methods should be thoroughly explored first though. If explosives are the only way, there are basically 4 routes I can
think of:
1. External charges. These will require high brisance explosives, and a lot of it.
2. Internal charges. More effective and is far more forgiving when it comes to the explosives used.
3. Shaped charges. Hard to make and produces very high velocity metal fragments.
4. Stump blasting. Requires only low VOD explosives.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Bert
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1: If it's a business with PAYING CUSTOMERS WHO CAN AFFORD GOLF EXPENSES AND HAVE LAWYERS ON RETAINER- The ONLY sane course is to hire an insured
professional with enough experience and good references. Seriously.
2: If you wanted any kind of useful advice, you would need to at least post good photos from several sides with something to show scale in all.
Sorry, choosing an explosive as your first question is putting the cart a couple of 1000 meters per second in front of the horse battery staple.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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THErAPIST
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Sorry i should have been more specific. It was late. Its NOT possible to cut it down safely unless I rent a crane. Im well versed in cutting down
trees. Due to monetary constraints hiring a tree service will NEVER happen. After multiple floods and hurricanes we're pretty broke. I'm in no rush to
do anything about it to be honest, this is all really more theoretical conversation than anything. To be clear, if in the off chance it was destroyed
with explosives there wouldn't be a soul around with the exception of myself and 2 other people who would be an extremely safe distance away behind
cover. This issue exists miles away from people in a swamp thats inaccessible except from one direction which is gated before and after a certain
time.
It's an oak thats more than 2 feet wide at the bottom. The top splits off 2 directions. There are 2 pines that are even larger that have fallen in a
V with the tops intertwined. Theyre both lying on the same side of the split about 4/5ths the way up their trunks and theyre dead and brittle. The
root balls are still connected to the pines. Cutting the oak would result in being caught by either the oak tree or the pine. Its all far too large to
anchor and then release after any felling cuts have been made. There aren't any other trees close enough, and I dont have chain or rope anywhere thick
enough or long enough. The pines cant be tied off to because theyre too brittle so climbing would be complicated even for experienced folk. Local tree
services are shit anyway.
I would only need the pines off the top. Once they're down it can all be cut up. The way I'd like to do it is cut the pines at the base to release
root ball tension and weaken the oak branch that the pines are on so that the pines and oak branch fall down. The pines are big enough that if the
branch theyre on goes down, theyll fall relatively straight down and strip other branches out of the way in the process.
Now im now exactly sold on explosives or even large charges if theyre used. I realize now that im more awake that in addition to ETN, picric acid,
and ammonium picrate, I also have the ability to use use ANNM, nitrocellulose (used to be my favorite synth), double base smokeless, and probably a
couple other more simple things. Again I'm looking for theoretical solutions. If I really wanted I'm entirely capable of jacking this thing with 10
lbs of annm with aluminum added and blowing it into the ether. Or rednecking it with 20 lbs of reactive target mix and plugging it from 400 yards with
a rifle. Not exactly what im getting at here though heh. I can of course take pics.
Im not above drilling a couple holes into the top branch, loading, and then electrically igniting (hundreds of feet of wire around there) to make the
top branch fall and drop the pines.
Also I'd like to point out that the average golfer these days isn't exactly rich and neither are the courses. You can get out and play for $30 to $50
in most places around me in the off season. Doesnt exactly bring a lot of money in when you consider the power bill alone for a single course is 9k a
month.
I do appreciate everybody's attention to safety though. Thats exactly why I posted this here instead of somewhere else.
I thought about linear shaped charges from cardboard or plastic, but from demo stuff ive read before 2 holes drilled at 90° that meet will take the
90° section out of a tree and will make it fall that direction but I haven't tested that theory on a large enough tree. The trees ive tested it on
were 6 inches or so and the whole thing splintered
[Edited on 6-2-2018 by THErAPIST]
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unionised
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Quote: Originally posted by THErAPIST  | S After multiple floods and hurricanes we're pretty broke. I'm in no rush to do anything about it
[Edited on 6-2-2018 by THErAPIST] |
You seem to have answered your own problem.
Incidentally, setting a big enough fire at the bottom of a tree, lighting it, and walking away will solve the problem.
The issue is how to define "big enough".
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happyfooddance
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Good job, unionised... I was gonna say, wouldn't a well-played controlled-burn, do the same job? Less risk except for a big scorch, which I doubt you
would avoid going the energetic route.
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j_sum1
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Do you just want the pines gone while saving the oak? Or is the plan to rid all three?
And how brittle is brittle?
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unionised
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I'm not sure if it's easier to clean up a scorch mark or a mass of splintered timber.
Fire is cheap.
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JJay
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Dead standing pines burn like they are soaked in gasoline.
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Bert
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If you have NM, double based propellant powder and can get microbaloons, this combination has the brissance and small enough critical diameter for
augering 1.25 or 1.5" holes mostly through the tree and placing 2 charges of the NM blasting jelly analogue disclosed here by Laborarory of Liptakov
at 90 degrees to each other at the point you want to cut the wood. For insurance, you can do a pair of small charges above and below your snapping
point on opposite sides to "scissor cut" at the same rime as you "cut on the dotted line". The scissor charges can be just about anything fhat
detonates, amonal would be adequate. Det cord makes this kind of project work easier and with smaller but more numerous charges , so less annoyance
to the neighborhood, broken windows & etc.
Look at one of the online versions of US Army demolition manuals for tree and timber cutting scenarios and rules of thumb for choosing charge weights.
US Army FM 5-25 Explosives & Demolitions 1967
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=33...
| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | Nitromethane gelatin: NM 81% + NC2 15% (cont.12,4%N) + 3% Al (use silver flakes for color, no dark german, no spheric) + 1% microballoons. It is
better to use not NC2, but gunpowder containing nitroglycerin. In this case gelatin is extremely dense, like jelly. All components, their
representation can vary widely. For example, Aluminium 3-20%, NC 6-18, microballons 0,5- 3%. Initiation No.8-10. Attention, gelatin is rapidly losing
nitromethane content. Within a few hours. The charge must be gas tight. Hermetically sealed... ...LL |
Don't work alone. Think about fire supression BEFORE the shot.
[Edited on 6-2-2018 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Sulaiman
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Starting at the end;
you will probably want to remove or at least kill and rot the roots and stump,
earth conducts heat away from roots well enough to prevent them burning,
so you will need to accelerate the rotting, or dig them up.
Maybe with a digger machine you could dig down to the roots on the 'safe' side,
before you start collecting wood for your 4th July celebration, or halloween if you are as proactive as me
In the meantime you could drill long thin holes into the trunk(s)
to allow a daily dose of sodium chlorate solution to infuse the trunk 
Allof the above is based on very little experience (3 trees) so please treat it more as inspiration than solid advice.
OR
use a rocket tethered wire to bring lightning from a passing storm down on the evil tree(s)
OR
start a rumour that there is an Al-Quaida secret base beneath the trees and hope for an air strike. 
[Edited on 6-2-2018 by Sulaiman]
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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THErAPIST
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I synthed about 25g ETN to run my own tests on. Its not that i dont trust what i read but... Well yeah that's actually kinda it. Ill do my own hammer,
drop, and friction tests. My materials differ from other folk's stuff.
@sulaiman you win with the comments lol
Its all gonna go eventually. The oak is dead because of the trees ontop of it
When I say brittle I mean to say that the wood is very fragile, very dry, and incapable of holding a load. Likely all the sap has settled into the
lower trunks. Btw does everyone know what fat wood/ fatlighter is? Also realize that turpentine comes from pines. How flammable is turpentine?
japanese planes ran off of it in wwII hence why i havent yet caught this mess on fire. I did mention it though! The idea made the superintendent
nervousness
I'm not so worried about fires. Im surrounded by swamp and Ive got an irrigation system run by almost $75k worth of pumps (that 9k power bill make
sense now?). I'm also notmworried about stumps as those are easy to get rid of. I like the responses. You guys are the shit. I'll def look up micro
balloons. You'd be surprised what our chemical licenses allow us to buy btw so throw anything out there. This is all theoretical after all! Anything
could be possible!
I have pics but dont know how to post them. I guess I could go start another photobucket acct. I dont remember board code anymore and my pics are
probably trash anyway
Correction! its ONE pine lying on top of a long slender water oak that are on top of the upright oak, not 2 pines. But that it really matters but I'm
trying to keep the situation accurate
[Edited on 7-2-2018 by THErAPIST]
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j_sum1
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Posting pics is easy. Simply preview post. This will bring up a screen that allows uploading of files. Hitting preview post again will enable you
to position the pictures within your text as you wish.
Ok, maybe it is a bit convoluted but it works fine.
Sounds like you have a few options an the tree.
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violet sin
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Block and tackle + truck + decent standing tree = yard down the fellers one by one
https://youtu.be/_Wb8XuxUaW4
This one is putting a cedar tree back up to standing. Pretty cool. Not really a practical fix for the problem here at all. But you could drag them
some' bitches sideways like a boss. Mechanical advantage is fire friendly
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SWIM
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Sounds like the thing might be in a position to topple with enough of a huge shove:
What if you just took a post-hole digger extended with some pipes, bored a hole, and put a good sized charge well under one of the stumps?
If you could heave that thing just a bit up out of the ground, smash a few big roots, maybe the whole mess would tumble down?
I known nothing about the actual application of explosives and this is just a thought.
I just like the Idea of a few tons of dirt tamping the blast.
But what do I know, maybe you'd just get a rock-shower all over the county doing it that way.
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Vomaturge
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| Quote: Originally posted by THErAPIST | Btw does everyone know what fat wood/ fatlighter is? Also realize that turpentine comes from pines. How flammable is turpentine? japanese planes ran
off of it in wwII hence why i havent yet caught this mess on fire. I did mention it though! The idea made the superintendent nervousness
[Edited on 7-2-2018 by THErAPIST] |
I have seen someone burn a small but very dry pine. It was the heat of summer, and it was their Christmas tree. It still had most of the needles, but
they were red and crumbly.I've also burnt similar material as fallen pine branches. It'll start slow (as in flame spreading a few cm/sec) but will
accelerate rapidly after that.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zEuVGKXKVyc
The tree will burn violently, but not until you've had time to get away. So all you have to do is stuff an old newspaper in the lower branches of the
pine (to get a big enough flame to jump between the first few branches), light it, and let our nifty oxidizing atmosphere do the rest As long as there's nothing flammable nearby, this just might be your best bet. Once
the pine is mostly burning (probably less than 1 minute) you can turn on the sprinklers to protect the grass from radiant heat. As Bert and
Happyfooddance aptly pointed out, an explosive might set the whole mess on fire anyhow
And, to SWIM, yes, that might very well work, and yes, it could be a rock shower.
Especially with a 20 kg charge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6PGKcVr-8s&app=desktop
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roXefeller
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By Dr Liptakov's description, that NM gel will probably need a booster beyond the low power caps that the original poster owns.
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THErAPIST
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The pictures dont do the size any justice but you can see the tangle
The extendable chainsaw will get a lot of the smaller stuf and will reduce the chance for sideways kicks. It's the trunks on top that am scary,
they're certainly nestled
Admittedly its been a couple weeks since i looked at it last. It we as far harder to see things as clearly then as there were too many leaves. All the
storms and ice weve had lately stripped all the leaves and some.of the amaller branches. Very much not as difficult as it first seemed. Thanks for all
the replies though
[Edited on 7-2-2018 by THErAPIST]
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NEMO-Chemistry
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Sorry but thats a chainsaw job, extremely easy at that angle.
The distance of the pines poses zero risk felling them first, the first pine is safe because the second will pin the oak.
The second is safe because the first will pressure the Oak away from you.
We got a small commercial woodland, I live in timber country and the UK's largest forest, timber is the main industry where I am. Seriously that is
not difficult to fell. Here its roughly £350 a tree at most, and they will be robbing you at that.
The other point I would make, thin that lot out or take the bigger trees at the front out. The groundsman should be shot for letting it get like that.
[Edited on 7-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
[Edited on 7-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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