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BJ68
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@S.C. Wack
Yes, I have seen it...the story in short:
I think it was Sweden (not sure) which made the pressure in the EU and they made experiments with ridiculous high amounts. At one forum I made the
suggestion that with that method you can show that NaCl ist toxic, too.
Here the first lines from the abstract:
| Quote: |
Boric acid and sodium borates have been considered as being "toxic to reproduction and development", following results of animal studies with high
doses. Experimentally, a NOAEL (no observed adverse effect level) of 17.5 mg B/kg-bw/day has been identified for the (male) reproductive effects of
boron in a multigeneration study of rats, and a NOAEL for the developmental effects in rats was identified at 9.6 mg B/kg-bw/day. These values are
being taken as the basis of current EU safety assessments
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I think there is additionally some politics aspects in the issue....they want to ban chemicals for private use....and that is the reason why this
train will never stop.....
Bj68
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arkoma
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I frickin hate it for you poor bastards. I am A FELON and fired four different pistols the other day. Every society gets the government it deserves,
R.I.P Liberty in Europe. End product of the "everyone needs to be safe welfare state". BALLOT BOX
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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Mabus
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Someone should speak to the EU and tell them to ban adenosine diphosphate from use, it's responsible for all the criminal behavior in the world...
NO! WAIT EU, I was just joking! Oh my God, what have I done....
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Rosco Bodine
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It is important to protect the liberty of minorities
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S.C. Wack
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It's not about chemicals, it's about fear and control. This is a fear and control indicator.
This sometimes politically correct fear culture, the voluntary serfdom, it's not exclusive to Europe or the unranded. Fear is stronger than
rationality for a lot of people in ways that they may not realize. People are very trusting of studies (or anybody saying anything, really) when the
conclusion is that we need more fear and control. Yet it's full speed ahead towards the black hole, embracing root causes.
It's like the lone voice of reason is coming from Turkey, of all places. They won't stop saying WTF is wrong with you people. Only when there are
financial interests, someone will stand up to fear and control.
"Accordingly, classifying boric acid and sodium borates under "Category 1B" as "presumed reproductive human toxicant in the CLP regulation seems
scientifically not reasonable."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26511087
[Edited on 9-4-2016 by S.C. Wack]
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BJ68
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Yep....I found this:
http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/consumer_sa...
and I think that is the reason for the ban:
| Quote: |
However, the Panel also noted that exposure to boron from its natural occurrence in the diet and from other sources (food supplements, food contact
materials, feed for food-producing animals, cosmetics, oral hygiene products, etc.) may already lead to exposures exceeding the ADI.
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http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/3407
No matter how you look at it, it´s fact that the EU made the decision to categorize boron compounds as toxic for reproduction category 1B and even
partly as SVHC see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax#Risk_to_fertility_and_pr...
For me a example that this whole issue is questionable....and there are not only scientific arguments which are counting....
Edit:
| Quote: |
The effects of boric acid and boron compounds on reproduction and development indicate that a classification with Repr. 1B, H360FD (May damage
fertility and the unborn child) should be applied for boric acid. This was recently confirmed by RAC in their opinion on proposed harmonized
classification and labelling of boric acid (ECHA/RAC opinion (2014)).
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http://mst.dk/media/149704/eba-danish-borate-report_eba-comm...
Bj68
[Edited on 9-4-2016 by BJ68]
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phlogiston
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I previously wrote about my annoyance in this thread about a bottle labelled 'acetone' that I bought in a hardware store that had no acetone in it.
Perhaps they are reading along with this thread, because they have now have changed the label. I noticed today it says 'acetone substitute' ("acton
vervanger") now:
http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...
[Edited on 9-4-2016 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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woelen
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Thread Split
18-4-2016 at 13:15 |
gregxy
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A while back I accidentally glued my fingers together with crazy glue.
Fortunately I had some real acetone, to un glue them.
The alternative would have been a trip to the doctor or ER ??
I see no reason to restrict acetone.
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arkoma
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Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  | A while back I accidentally glued my fingers together with crazy glue.
Fortunately I had some real acetone, to un glue them.
The alternative would have been a trip to the doctor or ER ??
I see no reason to restrict acetone. |
Because of TATP
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
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Deathunter88
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| Quote: Originally posted by arkoma | | Quote: Originally posted by gregxy | A while back I accidentally glued my fingers together with crazy glue.
Fortunately I had some real acetone, to un glue them.
The alternative would have been a trip to the doctor or ER ??
I see no reason to restrict acetone. |
Because of TATP |
And because it is a drug precursor.
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OneEyedPyro
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I don't think acetone is a vital precursor to any illicit drugs though, rather just another solvent useful for the extraction or recrystallization of
those drugs. I could be wrong though.
TATP being so easy to manufacture and hard to detect makes its precursors a major target for the coward law makers.
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arkoma
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| Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro | | I don't think acetone is a vital precursor to any illicit drugs though, rather just another solvent useful for the extraction or recrystallization of
those drugs. |
Correct. MgSO4 dried acetone is a WONDERFUL solvent for cleaning up various substituted phenylethyl-phenylisopropylamines.
*edit* spelling
[Edited on 4-21-2016 by arkoma]
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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BJ68
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To all which may be interested....
there is a "SVHC Roadmap to 2020 implementation" at
http://echa.europa.eu/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/substa...
which includes "PACT – RMOA and hazard assessment activities".
At http://echa.europa.eu/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/substa... you will find the list and you can see if there will be some actions from the
authorities.
Source in German: http://www.reach-clp-biozid-helpdesk.de/de/REACH/SVHC-Roadma...
Overview in English: http://echa.europa.eu/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/substa...
In short: The SVHC-List will grow....
E.g. according to this list Sweden thinks that metallic lead has CMR-properties and there is a RMOA "Risk management option analysis" running now....
see http://echa.europa.eu/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/substa...
Bj68
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S.C. Wack
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They'll probably be wanting to not totally outlaw everything, just make it so businesses have to spend a lot on licenses and fees, to support the
agency while making it as large as possible. Everyone else is SOL, but not at risk of risk and that's what's important isn't it.
I note that here in the good old USA, arsenic herbicides for lawn use were removed from stores years ago (a couple years after nitrates), to the
delight of crabgrass, but cotton, etc. farm use wasn't regulated. The purpose of the arsenic regulations was to lower the amount of arsenic in water,
by eliminating a fraction of the total arsenic used; the most users, representing the smallest share. Somehow, this policy has had no effect on
arsenic in rice baby food, but oh well.
Quote from Reuters last week, different agency, same animal: "Over four decades, [the IARC] has assessed 989 substances and activities, ranging from
arsenic to hairdressing, and found only one was "probably not" likely to cause cancer in humans."
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Rosco Bodine
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The abolition of science experimentation and other small liberties is such a small sacrifice which must be made by all for the wonderful return that
is enjoyment of perpetual dhimmitude. Now don't fret children, the nanny state must run a tight ship for the greater good of everyone, and if you
know what is good for you then you will simply go along with whatever the nanny says is "the rules" for your life reduced to kindergarten. Wait until
you get your own school uniform so you will better fit in here at the little red school house. Won't you be proud!
Doesn't it all just make ones heart swell with joy to give up all that is doing ones fair share? It's such a wonderful time to be alive as a fellow
traveler always moving Forward and enjoying Progress towards realizing utopia. Wake me up when the bandwagon arrives in tomorrowland. Oh wait....we're
here.
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BJ68
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Little glimpse in the future:
CoRAP with The List:
http://echa.europa.eu/information-on-chemicals/evaluation/co...
Here you find such nice things like "methyl salicylate" which should be a CMR- and ED-Substance....
That are candidates for the PACT – RMOA and hazard assessment activities-List and later a part of it e.g. CMR-Substances will be moved in the Annex
XIV of REACH ("Authorisation List") or Annex XVII (Restriction List). Both lists will have an impact at the public and the private use of this
compunds.
Bj68
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woelen
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That list really is insane.
Even methanol, silver, sodium silicate, silicon dioxide, and sodium sulfite are on the list. Nearly every solvent I know of is on the list. Actually,
half of the chemicals I have in my lab is on this list.
So, after a few years we are not allowed anymore to have silver in the house? And mundane stuff like sodium sulfite, used for home brewing, is not
allowed anymore?
I hope that they make these lists so long that really everything useful is on it. Then they never can make it happen.
I think that nearly every chemical, also naturally occurring substances, are more or less "toxic", with "toxic" meaning that they put some strain on
our body. Our bodies metabolize all kinds of things, and while doing so, the body "wears out". This process is called "aging". Even oxygen, which we
breathe from the air, slowly damages cells in our body. Our body repairs things, but this ability is not infinite and sooner or (hopefully) later our
bodies get old and ill. What these lists tell us is that indeed nearly everything puts some strain on the body, even things like being exposed to fine
particles of SiO2 or wearing silver jewelry, but I see this as natural life.
A similar discussion exists for what we eat and drink. Red meat is a class I carcinogen, ethanol is also, but I also see that as a natural limitation
of the mechanisms in our body. We don't have infinite lifetime, we wear out.
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crystal grower
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Oh my god ! All the seasides rivers and deserts full of toxic SiO2 !!!!
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woelen
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This list holds many chemicals, but for some of them it is the form in which the chemical is used. E.g. SiO2 in the form of fine particles is regarded
as problematic, the same is true for TiO2 and CeO2.
I also checked the details of the entry for silver and this is for particles smaller than 1 mm. These can easily get into water and silver metal is
considered very toxic. So, we still may wear our silver jewelry, but small silver granules or powders soon are not allowed for private use anymore.
For most chemicals, the concern simply is for the chemical itself in whatever form (e.g. methanol, sodium sulfite, many solvents), but for some inert
chemicals the concern is for granules or powders or particles of a specific shape.
If we summarize all these regulations, then we can conclude that by 2020 or so the general public will not be allowed anymore to use and possess:
- strong oxidizers (explosives precursors)
- strong acids (solutions with pH < 1, explosives precursors)
- strong bases (solids and solutions with pH > 13, toxic, corrosive)
- many transition metal salts (toxic, some of them carcinogen or reproductive risk)
- fine powders of inert materials (inhalation risk, lung issues)
- metal powders (explosives precursors, some of them toxic for water life)
- organic solvents (most of them are toxic and the few non-toxic ones are either explosives precursors or carry the label F+ for extremely flammable)
- a selection of elements either as element or in compounds (arsenic, antimony, lead, beryllium, cadmium, barium, mercury, boron, thallium)
- a selection of very commonly used pure chemicals (e.g. graphite, methanol, C-7 and higher alcohols, sulfites, soluble silicates)
These classes partially overlap.
I get the impression that these regulations are meant to ban the private use of ANY pure chemical (except some really mundane stuff like some selected
metals in bulk form, salt, sodium bicarbonate and dilute acetic acid). Nearly all chemicals fall into a certain class, even very common ones.
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phlogiston
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In the column 'initial grounds for concern', many entries list 'consumer use', which I find confusing.
Do they mean that the listed compound is used by consumers? Would that not be an argument to hesitate with regulation, lest you ban a consumer product
for which no good substitute exists?
Similarly, 'high (aggregated) tonnage' seems odd. If a large amount is used, it is probably a very useful chemical. If it is banned, manufacturers or
consumers will try to find an alternative. That alternative may not be on the list, because it is currently not used in large quantities, and perhaps
more expensive (or even more hazardous!). So, then the list will be expanded to include this alternative compound that is now also used in large
quantities, and consumers will find yet another alternative. It goes on and on until every thing is on the list.
I wander how they will deal with the use of these compounds in products. Even if they are not available as pure compounds to consumers, exposure of
consumers will continue to occur.
A few decades from now, we will look back with amazement at the times when we were allowed to paint our own house and fill our own car with gas. No
joke, I actually believe that may happen.
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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BJ68
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It´s bad but not so bad...
a) If you look at the PACT – RMOA and hazard assessment activities List http://echa.europa.eu/en/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/sub... you will find substances which this outcome:
"No need to initiate further regulatory risk management action at this time."
Practical example: Sodium hydroxide http://echa.europa.eu/en/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/sub...
If you look at the PDF "RMOA conclusion document / Hazard Assessment outcome document" http://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/eeec3441-d96a-4c46-b91... you will see, that the target where drain cleaners and the Swedish EPA thinks
until now no further actions are needed. But read the points 3. and 4. of this PDF.
So there are small chances that substances are not regulated even they are on assessment...
b) If you go further in the list you will find this "nice" link from the Danish EPA:
http://mst.dk/service/publikationer/publikationsarkiv/2011/m...
I am asking me if the assessments are truly at scientific facts or if they are partly made from political prospects....
c) "Nice" found:
Oil of Wintergreen Methyl salicylate should be CMR and ED
http://echa.europa.eu/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/substa...
Edit: I mentioned before, but here is the Link....
@phlogiston
Yes that thing "Consumer use" hits me, too.....but if you look at page 3 at this PDF http://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/13628/background_doc_c... you will find this:
| Quote: |
Exposure related selection criteria:
Wide dispersive use5
o The number of sites of use
o Pattern and amount of releases/exposure
o The number and type of reported uses and exposure scenarios from different registrants
o The substance is incorporated into mixtures or articles used by the public (e.g. consumers)
o The potential size of the exposed population
Number of using sites if emission due to industrial use
Consumer use and exposure of sensitive subpopulations such as children
Aggregated tonnage
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so it´s a little more understandable, but it shows IMHO a tendency to a general chemical prohibition or at least restriction for public use.
Bj68
[Edited on 28-4-2016 by BJ68]
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Chem Rage
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An earlier poster remarked that the wicked actions of A. Brieveik and extremists of a certain religious persuasion have given the political elite an
excuse to clamp down on our liberties further; the repressive blanket bans and restrictions of useful and common "work horse" chemicals we take for
granted being one end result of this.
The poster may indeed be correct. It could be that some- if not all- of these wicked actions attributed to extremists are False Flag operations
carried out by a hostile political "elite"- a foreign entity- firmly entrenched in Western governments; this hostile "elite" are the ultimate masters
in deception, psychological manipulation and subversion.
The same "elite"- a hostile foreign entity firmly entrenched in Western governments- are trying to curtail freedoms in the USA; their powerful
lobbying groups are at the forefront in the push for the criminalisation of handgun ownership by law-abiding and peaceful American citizens.
Hypocritically, however, the same lobbyists are silent over the fact that ordinary citizens in Israel are allow to carry submachine guns!!
See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDr6SjPMRzs&bpctr=146234...
[Edited on 4-5-2016 by Chem Rage]
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen |
In only 5 years time the climate for amateur chemistry has gone from quite relaxed to extremely restrictive. I think the EU will soon be among the
most restrictive areas in the world when it comes to amateur chemistry.
[Edited on 8-4-16 by woelen] |
Everyone say "Thank you Anders Breivik"
All this was put in motions way before we had Djihadis coming back from conflict zones...
I am Lucky enough to have a good relation with the people at an online drugstore and they tell me a couple of things about why this or that is
happening and what's coming next.
Oddly enough they still sell 35% H202 but dont sell Boron compounds anymore for the reasons you mentioned.
They tell me of stories about grand mothers who used boric acid and sugar to kill ants that are now disappointed. Same stories about trichloroethylene
(cant imagine how old people asking for this are: thats an old ban!).
We were talking about Crystal growing and they told me that the next product to go will be... copper sulfate !
Considering the first time I contacted them was for advice on how to remove grease stains from this and that I'm glad we got into a good Relationship
otherwise they might frown at my current orders of NaNO3 and H2SO4 
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Rosco Bodine
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Fertilizers are now over regulated and overpriced "jihadi safe" inferior formulations due to the exclusions of needed nitrates and substitutions
generally of sulfates in those formulations of what nitrates should correctly be there.
Avoiding a correct identification of what / who EXACTLY is the security threat that is causing a loss of QUALITY OF LIFE generally for others who are
not a member of the precisely identified problem demographic that is turning life to shit for others, is practicing the deceit that is in effect a
type of blasphemy law where it is forbidden as being "hate speech" to with absolute precision correctly and truthfully identify the problem that is a
particular demographic identity as a common denominator about that distinct demographic.
To blame any generic "extremists" as being the "neutral identity" PC handicapped / redesignated amorphous kind of "generalized threat" is a huge lie
and disinformation.
Does anyone really need to review the case of Brevik to understand that he was by a brutal and evil means attempting as it were to fight fire with
fire for the shock value it would have simply to attempt to call attention to an alarm being raised? The sad case of Brevik to me seemed to be like a
man who saw a building on fire and was shouting the alarm to none who would listen, so as a misguided "reverse psychology" and "aversion therapy" he
had the bright idea to make hotter the fire that was being ignored .......and make it so hot it could not be ignored any longer. Of course it was a
fine madness and evil to inflict such "shock therapy" to try to call attention to an already existing problem and more serious "threat" than any one
person like Brevik or a dozen Breviks. Brevik was calling alarm to the thousands of others who do not have a scandanavian name but who are foreign
invaders destroying the racial and cultural identity of Europe .......at a cost more dear than any hundred Breviks .......while Europe ignores that
threat and denies what is the identity of that threat because the dhimmitude of Europe has put in effect blasphemy laws which have redefined simply
speaking the truth as being prohibited "hate speech". A virtually identical "blasphemy law" has been put in effect on this discussion board.
So everybody knows what is the real problem but no one will speak it. Does that policy of censorship make the problem go away or solve it? No, that
dishonesty simply empowers a lie that seeks to redefine reality and deny what the actual problem is.
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aga
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Not sure why everyone thinks the EU is one single entity.
Here in Spain you can go to any supermarket for 20% HCl, Distilled water and sodium hydroxide, all cheap.
At any Ironmongers' you can buy :-
1 litre 98% H2SO4 for 5 euros (also at a plumber's shop).
12% sodium hypochlorite (20 litres, 17 euros)
At a Garden Centre you can buy :-
Nitric Acid (min 30 litres, 9 euros)
Phosphoric acid (min 20 litres, 26 euros)
Potassium Nitrate (min 20kg)
Ammonium Nitrate (min 25kg)
Flowers of Sulphur (1 euro a kilo)
Cannabis seeds
Bee Hives
Live chickens
It is Illegal here to keep Bees without a licence, although you can have as many chickens as you like.
In the UK you'd be burnt at an equal-opportunities stake for trying to buy Any of those items !
Seems i can have some guns and ammo as well if i want, same as Switzerland, Germany, France, Austria etc.
(i don't want one because their single purpose it to just kill things)
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