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Volanschemia
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AU Competition #1 ~ Copper Carnival
I have been following the competitions that have popped up on SM for a while now and I think they are a great thing to get involved in.
Now, I am a big fan of strategy games, and decided to make a competition that involves chemistry, is fairly easy to do, but requires you to carefully
evaluate the many pathways that can be taken to go the furthest. Hopefully it will pique the interest of some SM members and get them thinking. So
here it is, my first competition!
First of all, as in every competition: Read the Rules
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
Disclaimer: This is not a Rador Labs endorsed competition. It is run independently by me.
[Edit] Changed rules document Re. Woelen's suggestion.
[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]
[Edit] Changed link to rules document. This was asked by TheAustralianScientist.
[Edited on 3-6-15 by woelen]
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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woelen
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Nice game.
I would add one extension to the rules. All pictures must include the sciencemadness nickname on a piece of paper, handwritten in a clear script. The
same piece of paper must appear on each of the pictures. This makes fraud much more difficult.
[Edited on 1-6-15 by woelen]
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Volanschemia
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Quote: Originally posted by woelen  | Nice game.
I would add one extension to the rules. All pictures must include the sciencemadness nickname on a piece of paper, handwritten in a clear script. The
same piece of paper must appear on each of the pictures. This makes fraud much more difficult.
[Edited on 1-6-15 by woelen] |
Thanks Woelen.  Rules have been altered.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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j_sum1
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I like the look of this comp. Alas I won't be playing this time. Good luck to all who take part.
J.
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Amos
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So in the rules, I've found this statement to be a little bit confusing:
4. CuCl₂ + 2NaOH = Cu(OH)₂ + 2NaCl <- This process creates Cu(OH)₂, when it has already been made in point 1.
As I understand it currently, you can produce Cu(OH)2 multiple times in the competition in order to produce precursors to other copper compounds, but
it doesn't count toward your total because it's not a unique compound.
Is this the correct interpretation? Or will adding a solution of hydroxide ions to a copper salt solution be illegal once Cu(OH)2 has been prepared?
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Metacelsus
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AU? You should do a gold contest.
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aga
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Ag Ag Ag Ag Ag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTDUuBWGtpU
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by Amos | So in the rules, I've found this statement to be a little bit confusing:
4. CuCl₂ + 2NaOH = Cu(OH)₂ + 2NaCl <- This process creates Cu(OH)₂, when it has already been made in point 1.
As I understand it currently, you can produce Cu(OH)2 multiple times in the competition in order to produce precursors to other copper compounds, but
it doesn't count toward your total because it's not a unique compound.
Is this the correct interpretation? Or will adding a solution of hydroxide ions to a copper salt solution be illegal once Cu(OH)2 has been prepared?
|
Yeah, I'm a bit confused about that too. I will participate regardless. Unless of course the competition is
only for Australians...? The title makes it slightly unclear. 
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woelen
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| Quote: Originally posted by Amos | So in the rules, I've found this statement to be a little bit confusing:
4. CuCl₂ + 2NaOH = Cu(OH)₂ + 2NaCl <- This process creates Cu(OH)₂, when it has already been made in point 1.
As I understand it currently, you can produce Cu(OH)2 multiple times in the competition in order to produce precursors to other copper compounds, but
it doesn't count toward your total because it's not a unique compound.
Is this the correct interpretation? Or will adding a solution of hydroxide ions to a copper salt solution be illegal once Cu(OH)2 has been prepared?
|
I see it as a chain, and each step in the chain may only be used once. So, I interpret this as it
is not allowed to make Cu(OH)2 and use that for different compounds.
So, CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2 --> CuCO3 --> Cu(ClO4)2 --> CuO is a valid chain.
CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2
Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(ClO4)2
Cu(OH)2 --> CuCl2 is not valid. This branching would make things quite easy, just prepare Cu(OH)2 and then use many different acids to make many
other copper compounds.
One thing, however, is not clear to me yet. How precise should we be with hydrates? E.g. CuBr2.2H2O is a blue/green compound, which has salt-like
character, while CuBr2 is a black covalent compound with very different properties. Do these count as two compounds? CuBr2 will be quite hard to make,
but CuCl2 can be made from CuCl2.2H2O fairly easily by means of very careful heating.
As soon as Cu(OH)2, CuO and CuCO3 are used in the chain, this will become a hard (and interesting one) to continue. I find this a nice contest and
hope to find time to participate.
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DraconicAcid
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Just to clarify, you don't have to use the same stuff for each step, right? If I make copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate in my fifth step, I can use
copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate from a jar in step number six, rather than limiting myself to the actual product of step 5.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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aga
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It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate.
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DraconicAcid
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate.
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Are you going to come up with a working definition of a complex that will exclude compounds, hydrates and double salts?
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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blogfast25
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Less is more! 
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gatosgr
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Will the processes be posted here after the contest is over? I have exams going on now and can't participate.
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aga
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As you can clearly see, any of that would be well beyond my capabilities.
At my low level of knowledge of the intricacies of chemistry my own efforts would be pointless, so i'll leave this one to the experts and await
enlightenment.
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DraconicAcid
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
As you can clearly see, any of that would be well beyond my capabilities.
At my low level of knowledge of the intricacies of chemistry my own efforts would be pointless, so i'll leave this one to the experts and await
enlightenment. |
You never know. The experts might not have time to contribute anything.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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aga
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Best observe Rule41 in teaching : stamp on the idiot after they did the work.
My workload reduced, yours increased.
DA:0 aga:1
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Zephyr
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate.
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Although complexes can sometimes be difficult to synthesize, they also occupy some of the most interesting metal compounds, and for that reason I
think they should be included in this competition.
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aga
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Probably best to include all possibilities.
Us noobie onlookers will learn a lot from the sheer variety of the things that can be made.
Best of luck to all !
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: | | AU? You should do a gold contest. |
I should! Hmm, ideas forming...
| Quote: | So in the rules, I've found this statement to be a little bit confusing:
4. CuCl₂ + 2NaOH = Cu(OH)₂ + 2NaCl <- This process creates Cu(OH)₂, when it has already been made in point 1.
As I understand it currently, you can produce Cu(OH)2 multiple times in the competition in order to produce precursors to other copper compounds, but
it doesn't count toward your total because it's not a unique compound.
Is this the correct interpretation? Or will adding a solution of hydroxide ions to a copper salt solution be illegal once Cu(OH)2 has been prepared?
|
| Quote: | I see it as a chain, and each step in the chain may only be used once. So, I interpret this as it is not allowed to make Cu(OH)2 and use that for
different compounds.
So, CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2 --> CuCO3 --> Cu(ClO4)2 --> CuO is a valid chain.
CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2
Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(ClO4)2
Cu(OH)2 --> CuCl2 is not valid. This branching would make things quite easy, just prepare Cu(OH)2 and then use many different acids to make many
other copper compounds.
One thing, however, is not clear to me yet. How precise should we be with hydrates? E.g. CuBr2.2H2O is a blue/green compound, which has salt-like
character, while CuBr2 is a black covalent compound with very different properties. Do these count as two compounds? CuBr2 will be quite hard to make,
but CuCl2 can be made from CuCl2.2H2O fairly easily by means of very careful heating.
As soon as Cu(OH)2, CuO and CuCO3 are used in the chain, this will become a hard (and interesting one) to continue. I find this a nice contest and
hope to find time to participate.
|
Woelen is correct here. Once you have used ANY copper compound in the chain, it cannot be used again (hence the need for strategy). Hmm, about the
hydrates. You are right in saying that there are some interesting properties that can be observed by changing the hydrate Woelen, however it will
also open up a lot of VERY easy changes. What do you guys think?
| Quote: | | Just to clarify, you don't have to use the same stuff for each step, right? If I make copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate in my fifth step, I can use
copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate from a jar in step number six, rather than limiting myself to the actual product of step 5. |
Hmm, good point. I think yes, you can use alternate stock as long as the picture you include in your submission is of the synthesized compound. Of
course you can still use your synthesized stock in the next reaction as well.
| Quote: | | Will the processes be posted here after the contest is over? I have exams going on now and can't participate. |
Yes, they will be posted here after the closing date.
| Quote: | | It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate. |
| Quote: | | Although complexes can sometimes be difficult to synthesize, they also occupy some of the most interesting metal compounds, and for that reason I
think they should be included in this competition. |
I have to agree with Pinkhippo11 here. Complexes will remain.
| Quote: | | Unless of course the competition is only for Australians...? The title makes it slightly unclear. |
The competition is open to anyone in any country. Even interstellar competitors are welcome!
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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j_sum1
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My two cents on hydrates -- I think that a certain amount of knowledge of the hydrates is necessary to exploit them so I think it should count. After
all, you have to be able to ascertain which particular hydrate you have and know that it is relatively pure.
I think a certain amount of leniency should be extended for recreating a hydrate that has already been visited however. Suppose you create some
CuSO4.5H2O. You then make anhydrous coper sulfate. If your next step is to dissolve that in water, then technically you will revisit all the
hydrated forms on your way to dissolution.
I propose that hydrates produced should count towards the final tally but that any of the hydrated variants be able to be used as a precursor to the
next compound.
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Volanschemia
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A couple of other points bought to my attention:
Can metallic copper be counted?
Yes it can. CuCl2 + Zn = Cu + ZnCl2 is a valid step.
Do all of the compounds need to be dried? What if I make them in a solution with other stuff which would be a pain to seperate but thats gets
purified by the next step?
This is a tricky one. Pictures of a dry compound would be preferable however this question has a valid point. Separating two soluble compounds from
the same solution for display of the copper compound would be a bit of a pain. Although since it is not mandatory that you use the synthesized
compound in the next synthesis (you can use alternate stock of the same compound), yields are not that important. Any feedback on this?
[Edit] Thanks for your feedback on the hydration j_sum. What you propose sounds very reasonable. Does everyone else agree?
[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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j_sum1
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I, for one, am really looking forward to your entry woelen. I think with your knowledge and skills you could blitz this. But I also think that if
you don't have a whole lot of time you could present a short chain with multiple compounds that no one else has heard of or thought of. Combined with
some pretty pictures it could be an extremely interesting and educational exercise.
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j_sum1
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| Quote: Originally posted by TheAustralianScientist |
This is a tricky one. Pictures of a dry compound would be preferable however this question has a valid point. Separating two soluble compounds from
the same solution for display of the copper compound would be a bit of a pain. Although since it is not mandatory that you use the synthesized
compound in the next synthesis (you can use alternate stock of the same compound), yields are not that important. Any feedback on this?
|
That's an easy one. If you don't dry it you miss out on the possibility of all the hydrates. Bonus if you do. Ok if you don't.
Another thought -- I propose that intermetallics be excluded -- if only because determining that you have made an intermetallic and not just a mixture
pushes the competition outside the realm of what is accessible for most people.
(Successively casting a series of Cu-Zn intermetallics and then leaching the zinc only to do the same again with Cd would appear to be outside the
spirit of the competition.)
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: | That's an easy one. If you don't dry it you miss out on the possibility of all the hydrates. Bonus if you do. Ok if you don't.
Another thought -- I propose that intermetallics be excluded -- if only because determining that you have made an intermetallic and not just a mixture
pushes the competition outside the realm of what is accessible for most people.
(Successively casting a series of Cu-Zn intermetallics and then leaching the zinc only to do the same again with Cd would appear to be outside the
spirit of the competition.) |
OK then, assuming we are going ahead with hydrates (ie. I receive no objections in the next 20 hours) then we'll go with what j_sum says. If you are
not drying your compound, the picture must instead be of the solution.
I also agree with excluding intermetallics as it does indeed go against the spirit of the competition.
The rules will be changed shortly to include intermetallics exclusion.
I also agree with the fact that leniency is required with the hydrates. Therefore, you can continue the chain with any hydrate as long as a hydrate
is not counted twice.
Eg.
CuSO4.5H20 -> CuSO4 -> CuSO4.5H20 -> CuCl2 is valid, as long as you don't count the pentahydrate twice.
I am going to add the hydrate related rules to the rule book for now, but if people would like it removed, it can be as long as it is done before the
opening of the competition.
[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]
[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]
[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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