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Cou
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RANT from "such experiments are normally done in university/school/industrial settings"
This forum thread is pretty depressing to read:
http://www.realpolice.net/forums/ask-cop-112/101560-amature-chemistry-what-do-police-think.html
The second post says that the reason police are suspicious of home labs, and prosecutors will find SOMETHING to convict you of, is because chemistry
experiments are always done in school labs. High school or college. This pisses me awf! How the hell am I gonna do experiments if I'll go to jail for
"Public endangerment" doing it at home, and I can't do experiments with chlorine gas in the school lab, even with supervision, because "Oh liability,
what if you get poisoned, and we don't want students messing around with our glassware, oh chlorine is VERY poisonous, you can't use it even if you
have every safety precaution, fume hood AND face respirator, NO we can't do this in the lab, no". It's so sad because school labs are INTENDED for
experimentation; schools are a ****ing academic institution, meaning school isn't just about taking classes and making grades, but also pursuing
academics such as painting in the art room, playing an instrument... so what's the point of building those expensive school labs and ordering all
those expensive reagents if you just let them sit there? What's the point of having a chemistry class in a laboratory if you're just gonna do lame-ass
stuff like make calcium carbonate? Hope this is better in university.
For example, I asked the IB chemistry teacher at my school if I could film a demonstration of a chlorine gas reaction for a science club video; I
wanted to make a video to revive kid's interest in chem, show them it isn't just boring math and letters and numbers once you apply it to real life.
Because my entire chemistry class is bored as hell, I'm the only one in the entire class who likes it. But she said that I can't do it even with a
face respirator, because chlorine can make you unconscious! And I have all 100s in chemistry, I'm not just some kewl who wants to watch exciting
reactions! FFS, so much for being an "academic institution laboratory"! She even told me that I shouldn't be doing it at home, because chlorine is too
dangerous, and I can't even get supervision at a school lab because of liability!
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Cou]
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Cou]
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Texium
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I think that forum thread that you linked has been brought up here before in another thread. I don't feel like digging it up right now though.
Also, what's with you and messing with chlorine? Is that all you do?
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Cou
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Quote: Originally posted by zts16  | I think that forum thread that you linked has been brought up here before in another thread. I don't feel like digging it up right now though.
Also, what's with you and messing with chlorine? Is that all you do? |
Chlorine is my favorite element because it doesn't require professional glassware to make/use (which is a good thing in texas), it's reactive enough
to be easy to ignite reactions with it, but not so reactive as fluorine to kill you with the tiniest whiff; green gas makes it visible so easy to tell
if it's there; it's toxicity is only acute, not carcinogenic, and easy to make from store-bought products. Even though it's toxic, the harsh smell is
a warning to get away from it, similar to H2S. Not explosive unless mixed with hydrogen, and it has some practical uses, such as bleaching or bubbling
it in pools to chlorinate them, sanitizing objects.
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Cou]
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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See, I thought everyone in that thread was reasonable except Samuel. The other two basically say make sure to know your zoning regulations, and keep
in mind that if your place winds up smelling like a meth lab and/or you order a lot of precursors, it's likely you'll wind up being investigated.
There's a general air that you'll be better off working in a "real" lab, and the painful thing is this is true, so why shouldn't they say it?
EDIT: Just film the video at home.
[Edited on 3-5-2015 by Etaoin Shrdlu]
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cou | | Chlorine is my favorite element because it doesn't require professional glassware to make/use (which is a good thing in texas), it's reactive enough
to be easy to ignite reactions with it, but not so reactive as fluorine to kill you with the tiniest whiff; green gas makes it visible so easy to tell
if it's there; it's toxicity is only acute, not carcinogenic, and easy to make from store-bought products. Even though it's toxic, the harsh smell is
a warning to get away from it, similar to H2S. Not explosive unless mixed with hydrogen, and it has some practical uses, such as bleaching or bubbling
it in pools to chlorinate them, sanitizing objects. |
Look man, I live in Texas too. We've been over this a few times, but you can't seem to get out of your self-victimized state of believing unreasonably
that the state government will hunt you down and incarcerate you if you so much as own one RBF or other so-called "precursor glassware"
I suggest branching out a bit, try a broader scope of experimentation. The more variety you have, the more likely it is that you'll appear to be more
respectable, anyway.
[Edited on 3-5-2015 by zts16]
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Cou
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| Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu | | See, I thought everyone in that thread was reasonable except Samuel. The other two basically say make sure to know your zoning regulations, and keep
in mind that if your place winds up smelling like a meth lab and/or you order a lot of precursors, it's likely you'll wind up being investigated.
There's a general air that you'll be better off working in a "real" lab, and the painful thing is this is true, so why shouldn't they say it?
|
Yes but how can you work in a real lab, such as in school/university, if concerns such as liability and "we don't want 16 year olds playing around
with acid" make that impossible? The only way for 100% paranoia-free and 100% legal chemistry is by purchasing a commercial zone for manufacturing,
such as a factory, and starting a business that somehow makes profit from that chemistry. I had an idea for a line of ester-scented perfumes that
actually has the name of the ester on it.
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Cou]
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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Yes, it is very sad that liability rules everything these days.
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Cou
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I've been digging through my high school's website and I can't find a single handbook or document that shows laboratory rules. All I can find is
general safety stuff like "Always wear goggles".
And there must be some liability waiver you can get your parents to sign, to remove liability. Essentially telling the school that if you maim
yourself from a chemical (which the chance is lower than getting in a car crash if you take safety precautions), they don't have to pay for it and you
can't sue them.
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Cou]
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aga
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Basically they won't let a 16 year old mess with shit because they are 16 year-olds.
Your body and Mind are not even fully formed yet and you want to mess with stuff that could kill you and possibly others.
That's what it's about.
Well, that and the fact that it's too hard to prosecute (i.e. Blame) anyone under the age of 18 when it all goes tits up and people get
killed/maimed/slightly damaged/really annoyed/disgruntled.
It is hard for intelligent teenagers to accept this kind of treatment.
Take it on trust that you do Not know best, and there are far more things involved in stuff like this than you imagine : they're not saying No simply
because you might make their glassware dirty or make them look bad.
Youth ! Nothing good ever came of it.
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Cou
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But don't think I'm a kewl because of my writing style; in my chem class I have gotten all 100s in every single quiz and test and lab this semester.
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Molecular Manipulations
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Cou you are weird, and that's OK.
Furrys chlorine attack.
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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Cou
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Someone here said that a lot of users here have a mental illness, and chemists are known for being more aloof than physicists. Guess the "mad chemist"
stereotype is true.
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aga
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Yep.
Simply being fascinated by abstract stuff like Chemistry, Programming, Physics, Electronics etc marks you as a Wierdo.
I think i might start a School for Wierdos, a bit like that school Xavier Startrek(ng) Captain made for Mutants in the X Men movie.
It does seem Silly to keep 'differently mentated' people in the same educational stream as Normal people.
On the other hand, the Strange Ones will probably want to Breed as well, so separating them from Normals early on in their education might not work so
well.
Tricky one to call.
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Cou
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What is your high school's policy on reagents and using the chemistry lab? My school's website doesn't have a single handbook or documentation on it;
just general safety guidelines like "Always wear goggles!" but nothing about doing your own chemistry demonstrations, experiments, and liability
issues.
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aga
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My School's Rules are Do what you Will (not just Want).
Implies thinking about it, and taking Responsibility for all and any outcomes as well.
Apart from that, no holds barred !
(NB : i just shifted all the Blame, thinking work, Clearing up the Mess etc onto you).
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Basically they won't let a 16 year old mess with shit because they are 16 year-olds.
Your body and Mind are not even fully formed yet and you want to mess with stuff that could kill you and possibly others. |
And when you're 17 and a day your mind is fully formed?
This is all about liability. When I was Cou's age I bought stuff from the local village pharmacy without any problems. In a big town I bought stuff
that I could't buy locally, no questions asked. Now at A-level, you can barely carry out at titration at 0.1 M!
At Uni we weren't really allowed to distil barely anything other than water. Same thing: heaven forbids something goes wrong! The liability, the
paperwork etc etc...
| Quote: Originally posted by Cou | | But don't think I'm a kewl because of my writing style; in my chem class I have gotten all 100s in every single quiz and test and lab this semester.
|
Then don't write like one! What's 'cool' about pretending to be a moron?
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Zombie
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Eugenics...
That leaves zombies out.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Cou
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The saddest thing about these school lab liability and "no 16 year olds" rules, is that if curious kids can't do stuff at school, with proper safety
equipment and supervision, they are forced to do stuff at home. Where they are in more danger than if they could just do it in an academic lab.
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by Cou]
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aga
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More danger, less danger, depends on what you got.
As far as the school is concerned, Not on Their Turf.
Clearly that have to cover their asses, so if you mention Home Lab, they simply have to say 'Nay !' and they're covered.
The whole 'Who Is To Blame' nonsense is seriously stifling.
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blogfast25
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The Unformed minds have become Fully Formed, all of a sudden?
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blogfast25
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| Quote: | | Even if you aren't making controlled substances, there is a good chance that something you're doing, not doing, or possessing is still illegal...
|
Or, how to embrace totalitarianism and be too stupid to realise that!
'Whatever you do/not do, we can arrest you anytime, anywhere, for anything (but please be happy for that sorry state of affairs! [or we'll arrest
you])'
[Edited on 5-3-2015 by blogfast25]
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aga
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It's all Nuts.
Personally i prefer Dry Roasted.
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diddi
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one of the problems that has not been identified here is the notion of permission. if the school grants permission for students to work in a lab at
lunchtime as a club, for example, then the school also assumes legal responsibility (and hence liability). If your local county decrees that
chemistry is cool and that experiments of a non precursor nature are encouraged by home chemists, then when there is a mishap, the county is liable.
by granting permission, or in these days even being construed as condoning or "not discouraging", entities are being found negligent and are open to
litigation. so if you can get permission from the police to do some chemistry, and a problem occurs, then they are liable as well.
this is the problem with a litigious society. and it will only become more and more restrictive imho
Beginning construction of periodic table display
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Cou
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Again, I'm sure there are liability waivers to tell the school that "If I inhale chlorine gas and end up in the hospital with pulmonary edema, I can't
sue you"
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j_sum1
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cou | | Again, I'm sure there are liability waivers to tell the school that "If I inhale chlorine gas and end up in the hospital with pulmonary edema, I can't
sue you" |
Nope.
In legal terms, the school has a duty of care. No signed waiver will release a school from its duty of care. And it doesn't matter if everyone
thinks it is a nice idea.
The school where I teach is very risk-averse. Risk assessments are a fine art. They are exhaustive and exhausting. And they are done to demonstrate
that the school has a culture of safe practice. For the sciences, our risk assessment documentation is archived and stored permanently. We pay for a
system that means we can look up details of what was done and what precautions were taken 50 years from now.
At the same time, the school's attitude is that a litigious environment does not dictate to us what we should do. Educational benefit does that. And
it is our job to ensure that everything is done safely. For me, this means learning as much as I can and making good use of the resources I have
available. I have students making halogens. We did that two weeks ago. I do have students handling concentrated sulfuric acid. We do dramatic and
exciting demonstrations and the students have some latitude to (and indeed are expected to) conduct their own investigations. Last year I did my
level best to use some old chemicals that had not been touched for years -- and replace them with new stocks if they proved useful. This year I would
very much like to use up the remaining 30g of potassium and buy some more.
So Cou, I very much sympathise and I think I understand better than you do why you are experiencing the restrictions that you are. But this fear of
legal reprisals is by no means universal. And if you are determined to extend your scientific knowledge there will always be ways of doing creative
and interesting things and doing them safely while keeping within the restrictions that you face.
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