bolbol
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Difference between nitrates and chlorates? and nitrates/chlorates with different cations?
I know that when these chemicals are mixed with coal, sugar, or whatever that burns, they give the extra O2 for combustion and boost up everything but
I want to know if theres any difference between them at all.
the chemicals I want to know about are:
NaNO3
KNO3
NaClO3
KClO3
I made some sodium nitrate the other day and when I mixed it with sugar, the burning was a bit less strong than the KNO3+sugar mixture that I had done
before this.
But then again I tried doing it with red phosphorus. I made a line of red P and another line near it that had a small amount of NaNO3 and when I
burned them the line containing the oxidizer burnt in less than half a second with a really bright flash while the red P line was still burning after
the smoke of the first line was out.
I would be interested to try this same method with the other 3 chemicals that ive listed to do a comparison but just wondering if it would be a waste
of time&money or I could actually get different results
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gdflp
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Chlorates are more powerful oxidizers than nitrates, this is partly because chlorates can give up all three oxygen atoms, while nitrates cannot.
Theoretically, the cation shouldn't make a difference, but the sodium salts are hygroscopic while the potassium salts are not, so traces of water in
the oxidizer can cause a slower burn. A mixture with red P will most certainly burn faster than one with sugar.
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bolbol
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I see, and in that case perchlorates are even stronger right?
So if there was no water involved KNO3, NaNO3, or even RbNO3 would work the exact same way if the quantity used was the same in case of moles of anion
involved
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Volanschemia
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Yes, I don't think it matters what you use as the cation.
Chlorates are actually more reactive than perchlorates because in a chlorate, the Chlorine has a pair of valence electrons left unpaired, whereas in a
perchlorate the extra oxygen atom takes that spot.
From Wikipedia:
"The greater reactivity of chlorate is typical – perchlorates are kinetically poorer oxidants. Chlorate produces chloric acid, which is highly
unstable and can lead to premature ignition of the composition. Correspondingly, perchloric acid is quite stable."
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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bolbol
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Oh... well I've read a lot about perchlorates being scary especially the heavy metal ones.. so I thought it was due to the oxidizing properties
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woelen
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If you ever get your hands on chlorates, DO NOT MIX CHLORATES WITH RED P. You will regret doing that. Such a mix almost certainly will set off while
you are still fiddling with it.
Chlorates are much more reactive than either perchlorates or nitrates. I would say that in pyrotechnic mixtures reactivity of perchlorates is
comparable to reactivity of nitrates. If you mix red P with perchlorate (e.g. KClO4) then the mix can be ignited easily and it burns with a nice flash
and a WHOOMP sound.
Perchlorates are not scary at all, as long as they are ionic. Covalent perchlorates (e.g. anhydrous HClO4 or organic perchlorate esters) are extremely
dangerous, but you'll never encounter them in an amateur/home setting.
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Volanschemia
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Quote: Originally posted by bolbol  | | Oh... well I've read a lot about perchlorates being scary especially the heavy metal ones.. so I thought it was due to the oxidizing properties
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I've never heard of perchlorates being any more dangerous than their chlorate counterpart. Obviously something like Lead Perchlorate (if that even
exists!) would be more dangerous than potassium perchlorate, but I've heard the opposite if you're talking about comparing chlorate and perchlorate
with the same cation.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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bolbol
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Well that sounds scary but now that uve said it... its tempting lol
The mix of Red P and nitrate that i ignited I got no sound out of it just a quick flash like gunpowder burning and it was a bit less intense than
magnesium burning.
I'll definitely have to try the red P + perchlorate mix though.
It was a long time ago on reddit that I was talking about the potential use of Silver perchlorate/copper perchlorate for electrolysis purifying of
sterling silver when everyone said that it was an explosive hazard, now that I think of it tho reddit people have always been trollish and
oversensitive
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AJKOER
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| Quote: Originally posted by bolbol | | I know that when these chemicals are mixed with coal, sugar, or whatever that burns, they give the extra O2 for combustion and boost up everything
..... |
If one where somehow able to safely combine the moist NaNO3 with "whatever that burns", which could include any compound that reacts explosively, or
nearly so, with water forming a flammable gas (which IS highly dangerous and should never be actually performed), one would probably change their
opinion on the normal drag that water presents. The mixture of the flammable vapors together with oxygen released from heating of the NaNO3 could
detonate or be ignited providing an oxygen boost to a fuel air mixture. Unexpected is the extreme temperature, as I noted in another thread on N2O,
that such mixtures can achieve.
Be careful on mixing chemicals.
[Edited on 27-1-2015 by AJKOER]
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