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roXefeller
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Quote: Originally posted by ecos  | I can reach around PH=7 with water and NaHCO3
I have a problem to understand how can I handle it or even transport it !
[Edited on 9-3-2014 by ecos] |
That's when many historical accidents with nitroglycerin happened, on transport. Have you thought any about sawdust, diatomiceous earth, or other
absorbent things and filling pill bottles. That is what set NG apart from dynamite in history, one being hated and banned, the later being praised.
The assets of the Nobel prize came afterall from the sale of dynamite not NG.
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Ral123
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Dubai, roXefeller, you have absolutely no experience with these materials do you? You have no idea where the real pitfalls are and what makes the two
compounds interesting for a hobby use.
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ecos
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Thanks all for the great support , I really learn here a lot.
I know the steps to convert NG to gelatine dynamite, I would follow the same steps with nitroglycol.
I have the steps but I want to make sure about the percentage :nitroglycol 90% , nitrocellulose 10%
would that be a better form ?
[Edited on 9-3-2014 by ecos]
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underground
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If you really want a liquid explosive, try NM. It is safer than NG/EGDN or you can also try DEGDN
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roXefeller
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No I'm not personally familiar with EGDN, I keep backing off when I ponder the tragic history of NG. I can tell plain enough that he is going to
boldly attempt it regardless the admonishment not to (from persons besides myself). And since he isn't keen on researching it for himself, I'm going
with the common warnings. You'll have to forgive me for speaking of safety on materials I haven't worked with.
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Turner
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Hence, do not store liquid explosive in glass bottle, instead pick some flimsy plastic container.
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Ral123
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| Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller | | No I'm not personally familiar with EGDN, I keep backing off when I ponder the tragic history of NG. I can tell plain enough that he is going to
boldly attempt it regardless the admonishment not to (from persons besides myself). And since he isn't keen on researching it for himself, I'm going
with the common warnings. You'll have to forgive me for speaking of safety on materials I haven't worked with. |
I suppose we both agree a novice in the hobby is very likely to have a series of nasty little(hope so) accidents and failures if he begins with
nitroesters(NC is slightly less dangerous).
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ecos
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what i know that NG is very poisonous since it can be absorbed by skin , is EGDN the same?
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hissingnoise
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Exposure to EGDN produces headaches which are more intense than those of nitro ─ they are shorter lived, however, and both effects are due to
EGDN's high volatility . . .
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ecos
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yes , but this is due to high volatility but what about dealing direct with hands ?
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packetforger
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I never did handle it without gloves, so I cannot say if it absorbs through the skin or not (and nor do I intend to go find out... handling anything
like this is a gloves and goggles job!) but better safe than sorry.
Just wear gloves, and you will be fine. The vapors can give powerful headaches though, which aspirin do not help with. Instead a paracetamol and some
coffee works wonders with nitro-headaches 
Other handling precautions: Use thin walled plastic containers is my advice for storing these compounds. Also not storing them "straight" is another
point - when I would store NG, I would store it mixed with Acetone. About 6:4 NG:Acetone by volume made it "safe" to store in a plastic bottle in the
dark. I presume the same can be done with EGDN, though never stored that material.
[Edited on 10-3-2014 by packetforger]
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ecos
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Thanks packetforger , I will take what you said into consideration,
can I store nitroglycol gel in the same way with acetone or this is not needed ?
would the nitroglycol or even nitroglycol gel lose its power with time ?
I read it would loose a lot of power if stored more than 1 month !
can the acetone used in storage used again or i need to throw it ?
[Edited on 10-3-2014 by ecos]
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Turner
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Ral, Ph of 7 can be achieved or very close with EGDN and sodium bicarb, why would it not? EGDN is already slightly soluble in water, no acetone needed
to dissolve it, with a good amount of water, plenty of rinsing I say sure you could get neutral EGDN w/out acetone.
This is the second inaccurate post I've seen from you, last time you were saying max density ETN needs a 5-10g booster just because you found the
cast bit in a straw did not detonate. This is wrong, ETN cast in small amounts just simply may not detonate, or poor detonation because of CD
limitations and critical mass to some degree.
[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Turner]
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Ral123
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| Quote: Originally posted by Turner | Ral, Ph of 7 can be achieved or very close with EGDN and sodium bicarb, why would it not? EGDN is already slightly soluble in water, no acetone needed
to dissolve it, with a good amount of water, plenty of rinsing I say sure you could get neutral EGDN w/out acetone.
This is the second inaccurate post I've seen from you, last time you were saying max density ETN needs a 5-10g booster just because you found the
cast bit in a straw did not detonate. This is wrong, ETN cast in small amounts just simply may not detonate, or poor detonation because of CD
limitations and critical mass to some degree.
[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Turner] |
I agree, achieving neutral Ph with just water and NaHCO3 is theoretically possible, it's just that I haven't been able to do it and haven't heard of
someone who did.
For the max density ETN, I said cast ETN, max density would be even worse. I said I recommend 5-10g high power pressed crystalline material. If C4 can
be set off by a det cord, why won't cast ETN be initiated efficiently with modern No8 cap. It's just that I've made more then 4 tests with cast ETN
and I've never got good results. In one of the tests, the diameter was about 9mm, initiation was azide-Tetryl-ETN in larger amounts then in cap No8
and aluminium confinement. There's also a video of 300g ETN/NG failure due to poor initiator design.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | yes , but this is due to high volatility but what about dealing direct with hands ? |
All of the liquid nitric esters penetrate skin to produce vasodilation, causing headache . . .
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NeonPulse
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ethylene glycol is toxic on its own and EGDN more so. if ecos has ever experienced nitro headaches he
really has not had a headache.. they are truly evil. beleive it or not i did happen to get one by prolonged handling of ETN to roll it into a
plastique and it is not nice, the hot sweats and prickly feeling of the skin on the forehead. Panadol did little and icepacks placed on the head made
it worse and it lasted 16 hours. so the handling of EGDN being much more volatile and a liquid the onset will be much faster. Do not handle without
gloves or inhale its vapor.
A little more reseaching on your part would help you alot,and possibly prevent an accident should you go ahead with proposed synthesis.
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packetforger
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NeonPulse: nitric esters of polyols have a vasodialatory effect, the best way to counteract them in my experience has been vasoconstrictors combined
with analgesics that do not have a vasodialatory effect, so aspirin based medicines are out.
Paracetamol and caffeine worked wonders, though prevention is better than cure, so I quickly learned to stop handling the stuff with bare hands or let
it get in touch with me at all.
I would advise other experimenters take precautions, as they tend to be quite toxic in small doses (the inventor of nitroglycerin described the
effects of a drop of NG on the tongues of dogs being fatal to them! Poor dogs!) I no longer bother handling such materials, other areas in chemistry
(analytical chemistry!) have captured my interests!
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ecos
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Ok , I will take super care when dealing with it.
Now , I prepared my first sample of EGDN , it is just a tiny amount.it is under
(cold water + NaHCO3 ) now
I am willing to make it in gel form , here are the methods i will follow :
1- boil Acetone
2- add nitrocellulose (10%) and keep steering till it dissolve.
3-add EGDN slowly (90%)
4- leave it to cool.
I hope it will be more stable and less volatile after this transform.
I hope if somebody would provide me with more info about the new properties of this gel form and its power vs storing time.
any texts/reference to read would be highly appreciated.
[Edited on 11-3-2014 by ecos]
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Bert
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| Quote: Originally posted by ecos |
I hope if somebody would provide me with more info about the new properties of this gel form and its power vs storing time.
any texts/reference to read would be highly appreciated.
[Edited on 11-3-2014 by ecos] |
Start by downloading this book, specifically you will want to read chapters XVII and XXII:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/nitroglycerine_e...
Then read THE WHOLE BOOK. Ask questions if you don't understand.
Then download and read this, ALL of it:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_chemistry_of...
Do this reading & ask your questions BEFORE mixing chemicals again, sometimes the dragon you have tweaked the tail of won't wait for a PM
response.
Ignorance is no defense in the courtroom against charges related to removing part of your neighborhood. Or in the lab against over pressure,
projectile dammage and pulmonary edema.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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ecos
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Bert, I highly appreciate your reply.
I have recently downloaded some books and I was confused which one should i start with ,I will start with your links.
I hope my little dragon stay calm till i finish my readings 
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Turner
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 | | Quote: Originally posted by Turner | Ral, Ph of 7 can be achieved or very close with EGDN and sodium bicarb, why would it not? EGDN is already slightly soluble in water, no acetone needed
to dissolve it, with a good amount of water, plenty of rinsing I say sure you could get neutral EGDN w/out acetone.
This is the second inaccurate post I've seen from you, last time you were saying max density ETN needs a 5-10g booster just because you found the
cast bit in a straw did not detonate. This is wrong, ETN cast in small amounts just simply may not detonate, or poor detonation because of CD
limitations and critical mass to some degree.
[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Turner] |
I agree, achieving neutral Ph with just water and NaHCO3 is theoretically possible, it's just that I haven't been able to do it and haven't heard of
someone who did.
For the max density ETN, I said cast ETN, max density would be even worse. I said I recommend 5-10g high power pressed crystalline material. If C4 can
be set off by a det cord, why won't cast ETN be initiated efficiently with modern No8 cap. It's just that I've made more then 4 tests with cast ETN
and I've never got good results. In one of the tests, the diameter was about 9mm, initiation was azide-Tetryl-ETN in larger amounts then in cap No8
and aluminium confinement. There's also a video of 300g ETN/NG failure due to poor initiator design. |
Exactly, you simply cannot expect a charge of diameter only 9mm consisting of cast ETN to reliably detonate, your test showed that max density ETN
(cast) is not a good candidate for the base charge in a blasting cap. I'll do a test of my own in the near future with cast ETN in amounts (20 grams
or more) unconfined initiated with nothing more than a no. 8 detonator (that is a compound cap), you will be able to compare the results well to 20g
of rubberized ETN/RDX I tested on this same heavy steel plate which showed decent power with a slight indentation, so we'll know if the ETN detonates,
and if high-order.
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Ral123
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I'm looking forward to it. Make sure to make a good video and upload it. My tests showed reduced performance, not no performance. Even a straw with
SADS-pressed ETN, strapped on the main cast charge will explode somehow.
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packetforger
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With cast ETN, I found one needed a decently sized booster charge to get it to go at all, my first attempts with caps simply resulted in lumps of
burned ETN scattered all over the place. Cast ETN is a funny one in how insensitive it is compared to the parent material...
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