| Pages:
1
2 |
SM2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 359
Registered: 8-5-2012
Location: the Irish Springs
Member Is Offline
Mood: Affect
|
|
KMnO₄ Listed as Precursor
I had no idea, until reading several threads here, that potassium permanganate was considered such a great threat. I mean it's somewhere on DEA list,
but so is pretty much everything else. The only reference I can remember were it's uses perhaps in cocaine production, but the thresholds were in
multi-Kg quantities.
Enlighten me, please, if anyone knows why this reagent is (apparently) so demonized. Other than the fact it looks a lot like I2.
<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: changed
subject from "KMN04"]
[Edited on 13.2.14 by bfesser]
"Old men who speak of victory
shed light upon their stolen life
they - drive by night- and act as if they're
moved by unheard music." B. Currie
|
|
|
Pyro
International Hazard
Posts: 1305
Registered: 6-4-2012
Location: Gent, Belgium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
it's a strong oxidizer...
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro.  |
|
|
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by SM2  | | I had no idea, until reading several threads here, that potassium permanganate was considered such a great threat. |
What threads? I've never been given this impression by anything I read here.
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2539
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
It can be used to make methcathinone from pseudoephedrine. (Again, isn't restricting the pseudoephedrine enough?!?)
|
|
|
SM2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 359
Registered: 8-5-2012
Location: the Irish Springs
Member Is Offline
Mood: Affect
|
|
Are you highly confident that that is the main reason? We never hear of KAT devestating communities, or methcathinone face. I believe it's the
method which uses lots of water, and just a tiny amount of oxidizer
"Old men who speak of victory
shed light upon their stolen life
they - drive by night- and act as if they're
moved by unheard music." B. Currie
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
It can be employed to make benzaldehyde from a common solvent...
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
Probably its use as a common oxidizing agent. I'm guessing the restriction has to do with k3wls who want to use it "for to maek things go BOOM."
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
True, but I dont think thats why the DEA would list it...
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
KMnO4 is a strong oxidizer and that makes it more watched than other chemicals. Many oxidizers can be used to make benzaldehyde from toluene or benzyl
alcohol, but is that a real problem. Where I live, benzaldehyde is easy to obtain (it has uses in small amounts because of its lovely smell). Only if
you buy large quantities things will look fishy.
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Among the thousands of other uses, potassium permanganate is also used in the processing of the crude coca leaves extract as an oxidant that destroys
some unsaturated non-cocaine alkaloids. This treatment allows for the better purity of the final product. For this reason, the USA's drug enforcement
agency tries to regulate its international traffic, apparently for reducing the quality of the black market cocaine (I doubt that reducing its purity
is going to lower consumption, but this is just my irrelevant opinion). I guess it is just one of the unusual policies the drug enforcement agency has
for enforcing drugs.
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/coca2cocaine...
PS: SM2, note that the empirical chemical formula for potassium permanganate is KMnO4 - it is not "KMN04" as you seem to believe - Mn as a
symbol for manganese, and it O for oxygen (instead of 0).
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
|
|
|
SM2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 359
Registered: 8-5-2012
Location: the Irish Springs
Member Is Offline
Mood: Affect
|
|
Mn - just wasn't paying attention Nicodem. Well, this certainly clears things up. I had known (like A Anhydride) that there were export
restrictions, just as there are for MEK, apparently. But the three reasons mentioned, taken together reasonably demonstrate why it is a chemical of
concern.
Anyone remember when Remove was Removed? I wonder how that happened. Did Sally just sell out of stock, or did they have to pick it from the shelves.
"Old men who speak of victory
shed light upon their stolen life
they - drive by night- and act as if they're
moved by unheard music." B. Currie
|
|
|
jock88
National Hazard
Posts: 505
Registered: 13-12-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Its used for cleaning boilers. You can get it sometimes at a pump shop or boiler shop
|
|
|
PeetPb
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 24-5-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Potassium permanganate
Hi,
About a year ago I bought a kilo of KMnO4 from a chemical company. After a year they mailed me a form that I had to fill out which included things
like what did I use it for who issued the permission (WTF?!) and stuff like that. After a bit of searching I found the regulation they were referring
to (here). KMnO4 is listed as a Category II of precursors to drugs. My question is ... is this normal ? I mean KMnO4 is readily available in
pharmacies as a disinfectant. Do they have to scare the shit out of people ? And secondly what on Earth is KMnO4 used in drug manufacture for ? .. I
seriously question the relevance of this regulation .. mainly because category III includes things like HCl, toluene, MEK and ether .
God does play dice.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
It's presumably used as an oxidizing agent - more info than that, I don't care to know.
Are you required to fill out the form?
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
PeetPb
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 24-5-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yes I deduced as much ... I don't plan to use it in preparation of drugs obviously ... I just can't imagine why would one use such an aggressive
non-selective reagent as KMnO4 in preparation of substances that are supposed to go INSIDE your body.
I had to fill out the form, however I obviously don't have any permission ... I wrote to them and the lady told me that I bought less than a hundred
kilos so it's enough to fill out what for am I going to use it/ used it.
God does play dice.
|
|
|
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Answer: "Scientific Research."
No need to give further detail.
|
|
|
Nicodem
|
Threads Merged
13-2-2014 at 06:49 |
Mailinmypocket
International Hazard
Posts: 1351
Registered: 12-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by PeetPb | I just can't imagine why would one use such an aggressive non-selective reagent as KMnO4 in preparation of substances that are supposed to go INSIDE
your body.
|
Have you ever noticed what reagents are used to synthesize some normal and legal medicines? Some are far more evil than potassium permanganate (which
you can actually injest in small quantities when it is used to disinfect water) My bag of pretzels lists sodium hydroxide as an ingredient, speaking
of harsh chemicals 
[Edited on 13-2-2014 by Mailinmypocket]
|
|
|
SM2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 359
Registered: 8-5-2012
Location: the Irish Springs
Member Is Offline
Mood: Affect
|
|
The Na0H readily turns into washing soda upon exposure to ambient air (C02, H0H). And the only way to make good NY street vendor pretzels, is by
diping them in a vat of lye.
Personally, I think Nicodem is closest in hypothesis when I take into account all the information I am privy too (regarding permanganate controls).
It's still somewhat of a queer thing in how certain chemicals are available in certain states/areas of US, whilst others are scarce. Where I live,
one can purchase a 5 lb. pail of KMn04 as a de-ruster for ~$7.
I think the whole sham in regards to pseudo ephedrine is one stinking lie. I remember when companies who sold ephedrine sulphate tabs complained that
next, DEA would restrict pseudo-ephedrine, and DEA responded that they had no such plans for doing so. The fact is, phenylepherine is NON-EFFICACIOUS.
That's right! It just plain does not work as advertised. It does almost nothing. The most viable substitute for pseudo is a simple neti pot.
Medicines like those contained in Afrin, build up tolerance very quickly, and after 3 days of use, the reverse tolerance can make your symptoms worse
than they started out as.
There is no substitute for pseudo-ephedrine, and I feel like a stupid fool on rare occasion when I need to purchase an over price box of generic
pseudo, and sign en triplicate, drivers license and all, because the authorities all know in their sick, Nixon, McCarthy Victorian minds, that anyone
who purchases pseudo must be a meth cook. IDIOTS! Make something very comparable to pseudo, or make it freely available again. It's not like the
average person will easily obtain iodine, red phosphorus, lithium, ect.
The current price for a 50Kg. bag of pseudoephedrine from India is just over $30USD. $10 of that is probably silly administrative fees, so $20 is
probably more reflective of what the commodity price should be. I wonder what the black market price of pseudo is per 50Kg. bag. I'd say at-lease 1
dollar more than the $30 price!
"Old men who speak of victory
shed light upon their stolen life
they - drive by night- and act as if they're
moved by unheard music." B. Currie
|
|
|
PeetPb
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 24-5-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket | | Quote: Originally posted by PeetPb | I just can't imagine why would one use such an aggressive non-selective reagent as KMnO4 in preparation of substances that are supposed to go INSIDE
your body.
|
Have you ever noticed what reagents are used to synthesize some normal and legal medicines? Some are far more evil than potassium permanganate (which
you can actually injest in small quantities when it is used to disinfect water) My bag of pretzels lists sodium hydroxide as an ingredient, speaking
of harsh chemicals
[Edited on 13-2-2014 by Mailinmypocket] |
I was referring to the non-selectivity of KMnO4 rather than it's oxidizing properties. I think that after the oxidation of a complex molecule (such as
many drugs are), there will be a lot of side products.
God does play dice.
|
|
|
Chemosynthetic
Harmless
Posts: 19
Registered: 12-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I could gripe about some aspects of FDA ANDA guidelines for hours, I'm sure. Who knows, your impurities might healthily put you at hormesis threshold
: ).
|
|
|
hydride_shift
Harmless
Posts: 23
Registered: 25-7-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: sp3 hybridised
|
|
Lol i just got some from the chemist today, im pretty sure its availible world wide OTC atleast in small amounts.
|
|
|
PeetPb
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 24-5-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yeah it's available in pharmacies (at least in Europe) as disinfectant or for water purification, however it is sold in packs of 10g and when I said
in the pharmacy that I need about 10 packs the lady looked at me very strangely and started to explain how a tiny crystal is enough to disinfect a lot
of water. And above all ... it's very overpriced a kilo in packs comes out around 50 euros or so .. I got the 1kg pack from a chemical company for
about 7 euros ...
God does play dice.
|
|
|
testimento
Hazard to Others
Posts: 351
Registered: 10-6-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
In my country you can end up in jail for buying certain chemicals from drugstore or chemical dealer, but you can buy them otc in customer products.
Dont ask me why, but I got once raided by the state force for asking potassium nitrate from drug store. That was the last time I visited a drug store.
Chemicals like ammonium nitrate, ammonium chloride, hexamine, zinc chloride, sodium acetate, sodium carbonate(yes...), sulfuric acid and most others
are restricted and the sales must be reported.
[Edited on 18-2-2014 by testimento]
|
|
|
HoH
Harmless
Posts: 15
Registered: 15-11-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Interesting
| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | KMnO4 is a strong oxidizer and that makes it more watched than other chemicals. Many oxidizers can be used to make benzaldehyde from toluene or benzyl
alcohol, but is that a real problem. |
Interesting. Could 30% H2O2 be used as a oxidizer in this specific reaction scheme as well or does the H2O in the 30% become problematic?
| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | Where I live, benzaldehyde is easy to obtain (it has uses in small amounts because of its lovely smell). Only if you buy large quantities things will
look fishy. |
I think I read benzaldehyde is found rich in essential oils like bitter almond oil, and to a lesser degree, almond oil itself? It has been a while
since I researched this topic. I am curious why potassium permanganate is the only mentioned oxidizer.
I don't think potassium permanganate would be a hassle to acquire, it is available. I am sure you are using it for something legit, but buying a lot
might attract some attention. A few kg's.. probably no big deal.
[Edited on 3-3-2014 by HoH]
Spinnbarkeit in my flask.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
KMnO4 is the only one mentioned because it is the most common, both among drug cooks, home chemists and explosives enthusiasts.
It's not at all a hassle, if you know the right suppliers.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
