aldofad
Hazard to Self
Posts: 56
Registered: 30-6-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Lead styphnate vs AP, TATP, HMTD
Hi all,
I got a simple question.
Why does most of the people involved in using primary explosives loses much time laboriously preparing AP/TATP /HMTD instead of easily getting lead
styphnate from cartridge's primers?
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
lead is toxic ? btw that compound is kind of instable
[Edited on 5-7-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Such idea can only be given by a guy who has no clue. The AP will initiate reliably almost any secondary, when allowed to detonate down a thick walled
tube, with the secondary at the bottom. You'll have to bust a lot of caps and build a solid container with styphnate/secondary to be able to initiate
anything.
|
|
|
aldofad
Hazard to Self
Posts: 56
Registered: 30-6-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_explosive_detonation_velocities
Lead styphnate's speed is 5,200 m/s
Acetone peroxide's/AP/TATP speed is 5,300 m/s
Lead styphnate is so widely used in primers directly in contact with metal provoking no spontaneus reactions. Acetone peroxide's/AP/TATP cannot be in
touch with any metal.
Lead styphnate is a realiable factory product with quality certification, Lead Acetone peroxide's/AP/TATP is home made.
Opening a large rifle magnum primer to extract lead styphnate just take 10 seconds.
The are no restrictions buying large rifle magnum primer
Looks like you are wrong
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well I guess I am wrong. I'm sure they try to use the most efficient primaries in these caps. After all who doesn't want a nice good detonation of the
double base(NG/NC) powder in his weapon 
|
|
|
dangerous amateur
Hazard to Others
Posts: 148
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Because
-its most likely mixed into some pyrotechnical composition and not pure. Also the amount of styphnate per round will be very low.
-it's extremely sensitive to static, and static is something that is hard to control for hobbyists
If you have problems getting raw materials rather get some old airbags and try to get azide that way.
|
|
|
chemcam
Hazard to Others
Posts: 423
Registered: 18-2-2013
Location: Atlantis
Member Is Offline
Mood: I will be gone until mid-september, on a work contract.
|
|
The m/s is not the only factor that makes a good primary, you have to take into account brisance, sensitivity, stability, cost, time to make and
others as well. Opening up hundreds of primers to accumulate weight will take a lot more time than synthesizing the other primaries you suggest. To me
It doesn't really matter that it is unaffected by metal because amateur's shouldn't have it in a metal case anyway, shrapnel I avoid.
Comparing lead styphnate to organic peroxides would obviously make it seem like a better choice on paper because lead styphnate is a completely
different beast. Start comparing it to other primaries used by the industry and you will find Mercury fulminate, lead azide and silver acetylide are
great initiating compounds and much safer (besides Hg vapor) than peroxides, even cheaper than the bullet primers too. Basically, compare any primary
to an organic peroxide and it will seem much better because they have such a bad reputation.
Somebody posted above extract the sodium azide from an airbag to make lead azide, that's definitely going to be better than opening up the bullet
primers and quite a lot is in each airbag. I have never done it but I have looked into it.
|
|
|
golfpro
Banned
Posts: 179
Registered: 18-5-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cap Sensitive
|
|
Cam, it is true there are accidents w/ peroxides, my uncle is a professional blaster and he has never even heard of AP, HMTD etc.. Do you think it may
have to do with how easy they are to make and thus many people make it or is it really true that .5 grams HMTD is 25x more likely to accidentily det.
than .5 grams Lead Azide under the EXACT same conditions, if that's not the wording, then think of it this way, would the HMTD accidently go off
considerably more often than the Lead Azide if 100 caps were made the exact same way, but 50 were LA, 50 HMTD, I would think the LA wouldn't ever go
off accidently in a trial like that, but I would be interested to see how the HMTD would do, by the way, this is from the time the material is made to
some time after the cap is finished..
Think of how many people make HMTD and AP caps to detonate whatever, whether it is .05 grams - 2 grams pressed into a straw
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
Lead styphnate is a shitty primary. It is a useful primer as its detonation is so shitty that it will merely ignite propellant and not cause
detonation. Take a look in Federoff, I think it takes over 1g of styphnate to initiate TNT (compared to tens of milligrams for lead azide or a good
primary)
det velocity means almost nothing for primaries. Look at silver fulminate, it is around 1700 ms-1, however something like 1-2mg will initiate tetryl.
What matters is the DDT run time. Look for plate streak studies. Quality primaries like silver azide, fulminate, nitrotetrazolate all show
essentially 0 time before deflagration turns to detonation. Styphnates take extended amounts of time, and this is manifested in large masses for
initiation.
(above masses for initiation are from memory and may be off, however the magnitudes for comparison are correct)
The fact that you have AP/TATP/HMTD in such a way in the title tells me you have no idea what you are doing yet. AP and TATP are the same compound,
and certainly not difficult to make.
However, unlike chemcam, I will advise against lead azide. If crystallization is not controlled properly, it can spontaneously detonate. TATP is
actually safer for synthesis (but not for any storage). and is certainly safer than scraping styphnate out of primers .
|
|
|
papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster  |
Lead styphnate is a shitty primary.
...
det velocity means almost nothing for primaries.
...
What matters is the DDT run time. Look for plate streak studies. Quality primaries like silver azide, fulminate, nitrotetrazolate all show
essentially 0 time before deflagration turns to detonation. Styphnates take extended amounts of time, and this is manifested in large masses for
initiation.
|
Well does this mean that it can be a good booster charge or even that if a very little LA is admixed to it (to shorten DDT run time) it'll turn into
an excellent primary?
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by papaya |
[/rquote]
Well does this mean that it can be a good booster charge or even that if a very little LA is admixed to it (to shorten DDT run time) it'll turn into
an excellent primary? |
Absolutely not a good booster! A good booster will overdrive the secondary by a large amount. what is 5000ms-1 going to overdrive? Not to mention
the whole sensitivity issue of using a primary on booster scales....
Styphnate or picrates can be crystallized with azide giving a clathrate type compound as described on this board. Patented for use in primaries. But
not just mixed. Then you get the worst of both worlds, the ESD sensy of styphnate and the impact and friction sensy of azide.
|
|
|
Trotsky
Hazard to Others
Posts: 166
Registered: 6-2-2013
Location: US
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Just wanted to correct a false statement. Acetone peroxide is not incompatible with metals. That is a problem solely for HMTD.
|
|
|
Motherload
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline
Mood: Shitty
|
|
Lead Styphanate in pure form is a decent primary and is by far more stable than any of the peroxides.
I'd rather use a gram of PbSty over a half gram of peroxide. They would probably take up the same amount of room. If I make a cap and don't end up
using it for a week .... I won't be as high at risk as with peroxide..
Cartridge primers are designed to produce a flame..
If you check MSDS .... Federal primers only have 8-15% styphnate and few percent azide.. It has tetracene, antimony sulphides, lead nitrate etc in
large proportion.
It probably is very similar for Winchester and CCI primers.
I have tested caps with primer powder and it won't even detonate ETN.
I am hopefully going to make PbAzide soon.
Always remember .... There is no safe primary/explosive .... Just safer ones than others.
@ Davster
I was unaware that straight primary could detonate TNT ....
If this is true .... I could detonate it without a booster.
@ Dangerous Amature
"-it's extremely sensitive to static, and static is something that is hard to control for hobbyists"
Are you implying that peroxides are less static sensitive ?
[Edited on 6-7-2013 by Motherload]
[Edited on 6-7-2013 by Motherload]
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
|
|
|
aldofad
Hazard to Self
Posts: 56
Registered: 30-6-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Today I've spent 45 minutes to extract 1.2 grams of lead styphnate from 40 primers of type large rifle magnum.
The primer can be quickly opened using a small pin, after I put a single drop of acetone to grasp off the powder more quickly.
I use goggles, anticut gloves and my feet are naked on the floor with no shoes to be well grounded
|
|
|
chemcam
Hazard to Others
Posts: 423
Registered: 18-2-2013
Location: Atlantis
Member Is Offline
Mood: I will be gone until mid-september, on a work contract.
|
|
How do you know all 1.2g is lead styphnate? I am pretty sure there are other compounds present in primers so you must have recrystallized it, what
solvent(s) did you use?
Also, you should buy an Anti-Static Wrist Strap and keep your shoes on. You wouldn't walk into any manufacturing plant or lab and see bare feet. Also to release static
you can touch the screw holding a plugin face plate as long as the plugin is properly grounded. At least that's what I was taught when I worked at an
electronics plant.
Edit: Added link for wrist strap.
[Edited on 7-6-2013 by chemcam]
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
I believe that is true. Styphnates have some insane ESD values.
Yes, TNT can be detonated without a booster.
|
|
|
dangerous amateur
Hazard to Others
Posts: 148
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: |
@ Dangerous Amature "-it's extremely sensitive to static, and static is something that is hard to control for hobbyists" Are you implying that
peroxides are less static sensitive ? |
I don't know. There is hardly any data out there for the peroxides.
But for the lead styphnate there is, and it's the highest value of any stuff.
How does Tetracene work as initiator, it seems to be rather slow? But it's less sensitive than the lead salts.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It's extremely dependent on the physical state. Cast TNT requires booster. Also it depends if the primary is in contact with the TNT or there are
thick walls between them.
Do they use styphnates in bazooka detonators? I've heard of some piezo electric system.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Its not and INITIATOR, its a firing primer, and is ment to reliably IGNITE propellants, not INITIATE ezxplosives.
The 2.1 grams you collected will not initiate an insensitive secondary, and maybe only MHN or ETN through DDT or heat shock, as it is not pure Pbsty
but rather a mix designed to reliably spit fire into Propellants...
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm pretty sure, if picrate/styphnate is allowed to detonate in thick walled iron tube, at the end it would develop it's maximum velocity and be able
to initiate even ammonium picrate.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1681
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
you guys are aaaaall forgetting heatshocking ETN
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
yeah, clathrates(sp) are great. and het shock NPED can work, but they are a bit bulky and unrelible, which can cause safety issues of there own.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist | Its not and INITIATOR, its a firing primer, and is ment to reliably IGNITE propellants, not INITIATE ezxplosives.
The 2.1 grams you collected will not initiate an insensitive secondary, and maybe only MHN or ETN through DDT or heat shock, as it is not pure Pbsty
but rather a mix designed to reliably spit fire into Propellants... |
That's true. I can add that extract primaries from cups is very bad idea. Lead stiphnate can be used as a primer, but in large quantities. Here is the
link to russian book on primaries: pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost&author=bagal-li&book=1975 . I think, numbers and
formulas can be understood even by these who do not know language.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
