Random
International Hazard
Posts: 1120
Registered: 7-5-2010
Location: In ur closet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Energetic
|
|
Products of dry distillation of sucrose
I have been experimenting with this like 2 years ago in a small distillation vessel made from aluminium foil directed into a cooled test tube. It was
a bad yield due to a bad apparatus, but I still remember the results.
I produced a yellow liquid and a small brown droplet of oily liquid floating on it. It smelled strongly of caramel. It smelled so much that just like
a mL of this in the test tube could be smelled around the room where I left it. I guess the majority of this (yellow liquid) wasn't water since I
covered the entire test tube in aluminium foil and it all evaporated the next 2 days, unlike water which stays there for a long time, especially if I
cover it with Al foil.
So I thought to myself, what are the products? I tried to research the subject here:
http://sciencegeist.net/the-chemistry-of-caramel/
| Quote: |
But, when fructose and glucose start to break down into smaller, more volatile compounds, your brain can very easily detect that there are new
molecules present. Some important molecules that are produced during caramelization are the furans (have a nutty aroma), diacetyl (smells like
butter), maltol (toasty), and ethyl acetate (fruity). |
But this is just one piece of what I found. But I do think there was at least a big part of only few compounds in my distillate.
What was it, maltol? Furans? Diacetyl? How would the product look like if we dry distilled about a kilogram of sucrose? To investigate the
products, we would need a lot of this distillate.
It seems like an interesting field to research, because the chemistry of caramel is not yet fully understood.
Since I don't have any way to distill a large amount of sucrose, would anyone be up for this experiment? Maybe we could get some very useful
precursors to other compounds this way. I see people dry distilling like 500g of corn for 10g of furan? Maybe this would give a better yield for
example.
|
|
|
simba
Hazard to Others
Posts: 175
Registered: 20-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How much sugar did you dry distill and how much distillate did you get? Even if this produces any useful amounts of chemicals, it would still be a
pain to purify them, doesn't sound much attractive to me.
|
|
|
Random
International Hazard
Posts: 1120
Registered: 7-5-2010
Location: In ur closet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Energetic
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by simba  | | How much sugar did you dry distill and how much distillate did you get? Even if this produces any useful amounts of chemicals, it would still be a
pain to purify them, doesn't sound much attractive to me. |
About a tablespoon of sugar for 1-2mL of distillate. Keep in mind a lot was lost because apparatus wasn't very convinient.
Aldehydes can be separated by bisulfite adducts, water soluble and insoluble stuff etc.. it is doable.
I guess it would be about 80-160mL of distillate per kilo of sugar by rough estaminate..not bad considering how cheap it is.
[Edited on 11-4-2013 by Random]
[Edited on 11-4-2013 by Random]
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2284
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
Is Levulinic Acid present?
Also of note: Levulinic Acid has been hyped as being fairly non-toxic. Possibly by folks who would like to promote the use of its esters as
alternative fuels for internal combustion engines.
As I recall, Levulinic Acid, used to scare the piss out of me. The bottle bore the inscription "Danger! Levulinic Acid in eye, will cause loss of
the eye."
[Edited on 1-5-2013 by zed]
|
|
|
Random
International Hazard
Posts: 1120
Registered: 7-5-2010
Location: In ur closet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Energetic
|
|
Possibly
More efficient way to levulinic acid is on versuchschemie.org, using HCl as catalyst on glucose
|
|
|
Random
International Hazard
Posts: 1120
Registered: 7-5-2010
Location: In ur closet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Energetic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by zed |
As I recall, Levulinic Acid, used to scare the piss out of me. The bottle bore the inscription "Danger! Levulinic Acid in eye, will cause loss of
the eye."
[Edited on 1-5-2013 by zed] |
Yes, I recall it has been posted here that it's fairly dangerous, but I am sure dry distillation doesn't produce much of it alone if acid catalyst is
not used in H2O. Just because we all eat caramel and I think nobody died from eating burnt sugar etc..
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2284
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
Perhaps someone should attempt to update Wiki.
When I first discovered that folk were trying to market "production facilities" to produce Levulinic acid esters as "Green" fuel....I was amazed.
Fuel it may be. Safety of such fuel is questionable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levulinic_acid
[Edited on 1-5-2013 by zed]
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As far as I know, the pyrolysis of carbohydrates produces mainly H2O, CO2, and ethanol.
As for that caramel smell, you might read about sugar browning reactions:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16766
[Edited on 2-5-2013 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
Paddywhacker
Hazard to Others
Posts: 478
Registered: 28-2-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by zed | Perhaps someone should attempt to update Wiki.
When I first discovered that folk were trying to market "production facilities" to produce Levulinic acid esters as "Green" fuel....I was amazed.
Fuel it may be. Safety of such fuel is questionable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levulinic_acid
[Edited on 1-5-2013 by zed] |
Yes, you wouldn't want to get it in your eye, but you wouldn't want formic, acetic, propionic or butyric acid in your eye either. Levuinic acid is
not especially bad.
|
|
|
Paddywhacker
Hazard to Others
Posts: 478
Registered: 28-2-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Chemicals from pyrolysis of sucrose. It seems to be a bit of a mess, from this paper, and not very high yield.
Attachment: Johnson et al., 1969, Sucrose Pyrolysis Products.pdf (310kB)
This file has been downloaded 592 times
|
|
|
brew
Hazard to Self
Posts: 96
Registered: 25-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: enthralled
|
|
This may be off topic, but there is that sugar substitute called splenda, that in short, its a disacharide, with 3 or so OH groups transformed into Cl
atoms attached,so in short doesnt get metabolized and simply tastes sweet but passes through the gut etc. Well it may have some merit as a
chlorinating agent. If an oxygen atom from a molecule acetate anion eg, acts as a nucleophile and attacks a carbon that a Cl has been attached, then
the Cl- is a good leaving group, and the disaccaride an even better one, due to its size. ITs just a thought. *Its called splenda. Worth a look, but
im a newbie, and it is of topic, but what the hell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucralose
[Edited on 30-5-2013 by brew]
|
|
|
aliced25
Hazard to Others
Posts: 262
Registered: 31-7-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
N-Halosaccharin is a known halogenating agent.
From a Knight of the Realm: "Animated movies are not just for kids, they're also for adults who do a lot of drugs." Sir Paul McCartney
|
|
|
brew
Hazard to Self
Posts: 96
Registered: 25-4-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: enthralled
|
|
Thankyou aliced25. Soz about going of topic, but I gave the N-Halosaccharin a look, and found a - it dont get much easier that this type situation.
SYNTHETIC COMMUNICATIONS
Vol. 33, No. 6, pp. 935–939, 2003
Typical procedure for the preparation of N-halosaccharin: To a well stirred solut
ion of sodium saccharin (10.25 g, 50 mmol), Na2CO3 (2.65 g,
25 mmol) andKC l or KBr (3.78 g or 6.00 g, respectively—50 mmol) in
water (250mL), a solution of oxone (30.75 g, 50 mmol) in water (30 mL)
was added slowly at 0C. After stirring for 24 h at room temperature, the
solidwas filtered off, washed with cold water and dried to give the pure
N-halosaccharin.
Thankyou.
[Edited on 31-5-2013 by brew]
[Edited on 31-5-2013 by brew]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
