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weiming1998
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Iodine is a known drug precursor, so it and it's salts are more hard to find than nitrates. The only thing I found was a 50ml iodine tincture bottle
that has 25mg/ml iodine and 25mg/ml potassium iodide. That would be only useful in microchemistry. I have tried extraction from 600 grams of DRIED
seaweed and boiling down the salts formed. The salts are mainly carbonates, which fizzed when I added sulfuric acid to precipate the iodine. There is
only about 10 grams of the salt.
[Edited on 25-1-2012 by weiming1998]
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AJKOER
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On Amazon KI pills, about 1 cent for each 10 mg. So, 1 dollar gets you 1 gram. Here is the link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004SF6AEI/ref=sr_1_2...
Shipping is extra, but if you order like $25 you may get free shipping!
Or, 6 cents per ounce and $5.99 shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000CFGNTU/ref=sr_1_1...
What do you think?
Also, you may be able to buy HIO3 directly at a good price and save some work in making it (min order 1 kilogram). See LINK:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/490813026/Iodic_acid.html
Now, per our synthesis equation:
5 H2SO3 + 2 HIO3 --> 5 H2SO4 + I2 + H2O
each mole of HIO3 yields 2.5 moles of H2SO4 and half a mole in Iodine. Theoretically, if the HIO3 is cheap enough, one could get H2SO4 for nothing as
you resell the Iodine for a profit after the cost of preparing the H2SO3. If the HIO3 is too expensive, one could get H2SO4 for nothing after you sell
Iodic acid at a competitive price & profit including the cost of H2SO3 and I2 purchased. Just a thought for those would be cottage industry
chemist.
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by AJKOER]
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weiming1998
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If I have access to buying things online, I can buy H2SO4 instead. And not very expensive at that. Cheaper than buying KI or HIO3.
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symboom
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what about bubbling so2 first making sulfurous acid then chlorine into water. Cl2 + H2O + H2SO3 > HCl + H2SO4
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AndersHoveland
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Quote: Originally posted by symboom  | | what about bubbling so2 first making sulfurous acid then chlorine into water. Cl2 + H2O + H2SO3 > HCl + H2SO4 |
Yes, that will oxidize the SO2 to sulfuric acid.
But the question is what is the maximum concentration of sulfuric acid obtainable?
For example, will bubbling chlorine and sulfur dioxide into 50% concentrated sulfuric acid solution absorb more of the water, further concentrating
it?
Also, there might be a maximum concentration achievable, because there is reason to believe that 99 percent concentrated sulfuric acid oxidizes HCl to
chlorine. And similarly, pure anhydrous sulfuric acid (free from water) might not be obtainable from the hydrolysis of sulfuryl chloride with water.
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AJKOER
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| Quote: Originally posted by symboom | | what about bubbling so2 first making sulfurous acid then chlorine into water. Cl2 + H2O + H2SO3 > HCl + H2SO4 |
I share the concerns on how far the reaction can be pushed to the right.
However, treating a hot solution with air (O2) could remove the HCl (see Lead Chambers thread somewhat detailed discussion on this reaction). Also,
it is know that:
4 HCl + O2 --Heat--> 2 H2O + 2 Cl2
and could further move the reaction to the right. So overall:
4 Cl2 + 4 H2O + 4 H2SO3 + O2 --> 2 H2O + 2 Cl2 + 4 H2SO4
or, upon netting:
2 Cl2 + 2 H2O + 4 H2SO3 + O2 --> 4 H2SO4
or, an interesting equivalent:
2 Cl2O + 2 H2O + 4 H2SO3 ---> 4 H2SO4
which equates to a known reaction (see Watt's):
4 HOCl + 4 H2SO3 ---> 4 H2SO4
namely, the oxidation of Sulfurous acid by Hypochlorous acid.
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | | Quote: Originally posted by symboom | | what about bubbling so2 first making sulfurous acid then chlorine into water. Cl2 + H2O + H2SO3 > HCl + H2SO4 |
I share the concerns on how far the reaction can be pushed to the right.
However, treating a hot solution with air (O2) could remove the HCl (see Lead Chambers thread somewhat detailed discussion on this reaction). Also,
it is know that:
4 HCl + O2 --Heat--> 2 H2O + 2 Cl2
and could further move the reaction to the right. So overall:
4 Cl2 + 4 H2O + 4 H2SO3 + O2 --> 2 H2O + 2 Cl2 + 4 H2SO4
or, upon netting:
2 Cl2 + 2 H2O + 4 H2SO3 + O2 --> 4 H2SO4
or, an interesting equivalent:
2 Cl2O + 2 H2O + 4 H2SO3 ---> 4 H2SO4
which equates to a known reaction (see Watt's):
4 HOCl + 4 H2SO3 ---> 4 H2SO4
namely, the oxidation of Sulfurous acid by Hypochlorous acid.
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Air in a hot solution? The problem is, when you heat a solution of H2SO4 and HCl, the equilibrium is shifted to the left:
Cl2+SO2+2H2O<======>2HCl+H2SO4. Both sulfur dioxide and chlorine will bubble out of the solution before you manage to oxidize the HCl (heat
reduces solubility of these gases). So you would end up with a (very) dilute solution of H2SO4.
Also, more HOCl chemistry?!?!
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AJKOER
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There is some validity in your comment as, for example, the quoted standard preparation of HIO3 via Iodine in water treated with Cl2:
I2 + H2O <===> HIO + HI
3 HIO --> 2 HI + HIO3
Cl2 + 2 HI --> I2 + 2 HCl
but, per one of my sources, the overall reaction does not completely move to the right without the presence of Ag2O to remove the HCl!
However, in the current case, to quote from the allured to Lead Chamber thread:
| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | Actually the Lead Chamber thread on pages 8 & 9 says some very good things about the H2O + H2SO3 + Cl2 ==> H2SO4 + 2HCl route (on the middle of
page 8 starting with un0me2),
Here is a convenient link to the Lead Chamber thread:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2824&a...
In particular on page 9 of Lead Chamber thread, and off topic for that thread, but on key for this one:
| Quote: Originally posted by Formatik | References in Gmelin verify the reaction goes as thought: when SO2 and Cl2 are led into water, this exotherms a bit and accumulates the H2SO4 as the
HCl concentration decreases. Neumann described the reaction is going rapidly and almost completely (95-100% theoretical amounts were converted), the
sulfuric and hydrochloric acids result immediately as fine droplets/fog, these are difficult to absorb and also pass over, as gases and water
initially interact.
The patent mentioned of Stolle, leads same parts SO2 and Cl2 into water, eventually raising the temperature to 250 deg., yielding 90% H2SO4 and conc.,
free from Cl2 and SO2, aqueous HCl. Neumann's process is much more descriptive.
Neumann also described despite having used a Cl2-excess, a significant amount of SO2 got solubilized in H2SO4, since SO2 solubility increases with
H2SO4 concentration. Though experiments also showed conc. H2SO4 which had Cl2 or SO2 solubilized in it, after blowing in air for 15 minutes, were
almost completely removed.
It seems this thread is the designated stickied sulfuric acid thread. I would retitle it as the sulfuric acid preparation thread, or remove the
non-Chamber discussions and sticky those with said title instead. Good eye on that reference, I also found it through Gmelin.
| Quote: Originally posted by 497 | | Do you think bubbling Cl2 + SO2 into water could get H2SO4 concentrated past azeotropic? I don't remember if there are any side reactions that could
occur in a mixture of HCl, conc. H2SO4, Cl2, SO2 and H2O... I can't think of any off the top of my head, besides formation of sulfuryl chloride, but
that should not occur without a catalyst right? |
I doubt it's of concern. Neumann described that after the reaction heat slows down, that the gases come out ununited. This heat is especially large
when water is first consumed in the reaction. Their later experiments used additional heat (60-92 deg), to make the reaction go much faster.
Concerning the concentration of H2SO4 obtained by combination of SO2 and Cl2 with H2O, Neumann says it is that of the Chamber acid or Glover acid
(66-88%). That's the raw figure then, it can be concentrated further by regular means. For practical purposes, instead of H2O, conc. HCl was
recommended. Then when a specific gravity of 1.6 is reached, the hydrochloric acid content has been nearly completely removed.
[Edited on 20-8-2010 by Formatik][/rquote
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symboom
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my thought is the more chlorine is added to the sulfurous acid of course cooling it with an ice bath so SO2 is absorbed more in the water forming
Sulfurous acid at the same time bubbling clorine gas
forming HCL and Sulfuric acid.
now i got a question there must be a point where the concetration of suluric acid gets strong enough to release
just like this reaction
2 CuCl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 CuCl + 2 HCl + H2SO4
just with out the copper
Cl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 HCl + H2SO4 so you dont have to filter out the copper 1 chloride
as the concentration of sulfuric acid increases as does the hcl
the sulfuric acid takes the water from the hcl and the hcl just comes off as a gas as the concentrated sulfuric acid forms
so i think this happens
first Cl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 HCl(liquid) + H2SO4(liquid)
as the hcl dissolves in the water to and the acid.
the concentration of both acids increases much as the sulfuric acid takes the water from the hcl as the hcl has nothing to dissolve in it comes of as
a gas.
Cl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 HCl(gas) + H2SO4(liquid)
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by symboom | my thought is the more chlorine is added to the sulfurous acid of course cooling it with an ice bath so SO2 is absorbed more in the water forming
Sulfurous acid at the same time bubbling clorine gas
forming HCL and Sulfuric acid.
now i got a question there must be a point where the concetration of suluric acid gets strong enough to release
just like this reaction
2 CuCl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 CuCl + 2 HCl + H2SO4
just with out the copper
Cl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 HCl + H2SO4 so you dont have to filter out the copper 1 chloride
as the concentration of sulfuric acid increases as does the hcl
the sulfuric acid takes the water from the hcl and the hcl just comes off as a gas as the concentrated sulfuric acid forms
so i think this happens
first Cl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 HCl(liquid) + H2SO4(liquid)
as the hcl dissolves in the water to and the acid.
the concentration of both acids increases much as the sulfuric acid takes the water from the hcl as the hcl has nothing to dissolve in it comes of as
a gas.
Cl2 + SO2 + 2 H2O → 2 HCl(gas) + H2SO4(liquid)
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So a chloride salt can be used instead of chlorine? But the hydrochloric acid in there wouldn't come off as a gas, it would come off as chlorine. the
hydrochloric acid will also decompose the sulfuric acid formed to SO2 and H2O. If there is no way of removing the hydrochloric acid, then this method
won't work.
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aliced25
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weiming - there is a paper online about the freeze-thaw cycles with sulfurous and nitrous acids, to give sulfuric & nitric acids respectively
after several cycles.
I've done it and the pH of the solution changed dramatically over several cycles, check it out and see what you find. You'll also find out what
clathrates are (I did ), when the funky ice melts it is time to refreeze it.
The other alternative is to find an old PC power supply, then use that to build a lab power supply (I believe there is a silicon chip magazine issue
online that costs about $7AU detailing precisely that). Then use that to oxidize the SO2. I may have to go that road myself in the near future,
getting H2SO4 in Oz is a biatch.
From a Knight of the Realm: "Animated movies are not just for kids, they're also for adults who do a lot of drugs." Sir Paul McCartney
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