Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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There's a new sheriff in town
And his name is Rosco <strike>P. Coltrane</strike> Bodine.
He is empowered to clean up the basement-bomber nonsense that has been posted in Energetic Materials of late.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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UKnowNotWatUDo
Hazard to Self
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Thank God
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dawson01912
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This is in no way personal, sir, but you're not helpful.
I am very disappointed with stifling of the discussions about safety and the shitty traffic Sciencemadness gets. 100 people is not enough.......
Good day.
[Edited on 28-11-2010 by dawson01912]
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Ozone
International Hazard
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Good choice!
Let the pithy joust begin! 
Cheers,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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psychokinetic
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Good idea.
Figuring out ways to kill yourself != pushing the boundaries of science and finding out new things.
Energetic materials are fascinating, but I'd rather learn about them.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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DDTea
National Hazard
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Can someone move the locked threads to detritus to remove the clutter in this section? Also, it would serve as a reminder of the type of threads that
we discourage on this forum.
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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dawson01912
Banned
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Then you clearly haven't learned enough about them. Working with secondary explosives is definitely safer than driving a car on a highway. And I'm not
even exaggerating, bud.
[Edited on 29-11-2010 by dawson01912]
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dawson01912
Banned
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Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  | | Can someone move the locked threads to detritus to remove the clutter in this section? Also, it would serve as a reminder of the type of threads that
we discourage on this forum. |
First, it would not serve as a reminder since it would be removed. Secondly, am genuinely confused as to what Energetic Materials section is about!You
can't talk about accidents, initiations, detonation setups......What the hell are energetic materials for? Looking at them? 
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: Originally posted by DDTea | | Can someone move the locked threads to detritus to remove the clutter in this section? Also, it would serve as a reminder of the type of threads that
we discourage on this forum. |
Good idea. It's done.
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DDTea
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dawson: here's what you are not getting, and you're in good company. There's a difference between creating/detonating explosive mixtures in a home
lab vs. actually studying, researching, and learning about energetic materials/compositions. Basically, the approach is completely wrong. Let me
illustrate by example.
Case 1: Someone, in their home lab, tests a new sensitized ammonium nitrate blend. He calculates the oxygen balance, calculates how much of each
chemical he's going to use, and he blends the mixture. Maybe he makes a "reference" charge using a sensitized ammonium nitrate blend with a familiar
power. He then detonates the two charges and documents the explosions on video.
Case 2: Someone is curious about a novel explosive that has been synthesized. He goes to his computer and loads up SPARTAN and does molecular orbital
calculations and bond energy calculations. He searches the literature for crystallography data. He runs simulations. etc.
The former is very sophomoric. The end goal is simply to make an explosion, not to *understand what is going on*--THAT is science. A proper
discussion about energetic materials should be dense with physics and theory.
As much as people bash theorists on this forum, I have to say that they are a lot smarter in their approach than many of the members here. Physics,
theory, and math are branches of science--they're the branch where experiments are a hell of a lot cheaper and less dangerous though. There is so
much that can be discussed about energetic materials without ever having to synthesize them. Do the easy stuff first; the remaining questions are
what should be answered by experiment. THAT is the way the scientific method works.
Also, in regard to topics about accidents. I get the feeling that people are interested in them but they aren't very good pedagogic tools.
Preventing accidents, really, is a topic more appropriate to industrial hygiene than home science. In regard to energetic materials, many labs have
standardized ways of handling them. Finding a particular lab's SOP's in regard to energetic materials handling might be an interesting--and
useful--discussion.
Really, some people here are more along the lines of home lab technicians rather than home scientists. Energetic materials are exciting and I know
that they attract a lot of people to chemistry initially. However, when it comes to setting off 50 g charges of organic peroxides or sensitized
ammonium nitrate in an empty field, don't call it anything else than what it is: bollocks.
EDIT: I'm going to include an attached journal article about HMTD to show you an example of what I mean by a scientific discussion of explosives.
This is just one example and there are numerous topics to discuss. Dr. Fourkas, btw, is a professor who really knows his stuff and who enjoys
mentoring students. He's a really great guy.
Attachment: Schaefer Fourkas 86.pdf (376kB)
This file has been downloaded 697 times
[Edited on 11-29-10 by DDTea]
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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I wouldn't go that far in favor of theory. Someone who systematically experiments with new sensitizers for ammonium nitrate explosives is indeed a
scientist. This sub-forum is not intended only for equations of state and computer models.
However, this forum is also not intended for people who are interested purely in the thrill of explosions. If you are not willing to read what experts
have written before, and to think and act like a scientist before the moment of explosion, this is the wrong place for you. I think it is the right of
everyone to decide how they are going to weigh risk vs. reward, but it should be done without self-delusion and without endangering others. So I will
criticize members who are deluding themselves about the safety of their practices, doubly so if they endanger others. Ignorance is the usual companion
of recklessness and I also quickly tire of members who don't do their homework before asking for help.
To my knowledge Rosco is no orbital-wielding theorist. He is however a good model for amateur scientists in the subfield of energetic materials: a man
who reads the published literature, adds his own ideas, refines them with experimentation, and takes precautions sufficient to retain all eyes and
fingers after decades of tinkering.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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DDTea
National Hazard
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What I mean in regard to theory: it's a starting point. Theory is the basis of hypotheses which are tested by experiment. It gives you an idea of
what you are expecting and something to work off of in the event of an unexpected observation. Basically, the scientific method.
You said it though:
| Quote: | | Someone who systematically experiments with new sensitizers for ammonium nitrate explosives is indeed a scientist.
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Good experimental design ought to focus on the "systematic" part to fully and thoroughly address a question.
Even a very crude attempt at making predictions is better than *no* attempt. Of course, on the side, you can always enjoy the explosions.
In my humble opinion, a bit of time with software, a calculator, a pencil and paper really cuts down the overall workload and narrows down
questions/hypotheses to be tested.
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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psychokinetic
National Hazard
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Location: Nouveau Sheepelande.
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| Quote: Originally posted by dawson01912 |
Then you clearly haven't learned enough about them. Working with secondary explosives is definitely safer than driving a car on a highway. And I'm not
even exaggerating, bud.
[Edited on 29-11-2010 by dawson01912] |
I don't do that, either.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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dawson01912
Banned
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Registered: 26-11-2010
Location: U.S. Atlantic Coast
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Mood: Creative!!!
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@DDTea
I am doing explosives for the thrill of explosives. True.
I do not care about minute chemical reactions going on in explosives. Also true.
However, you are forgetting that explosives are not meant to be studied in the lab! They are to be used in doing work, whether it is digging a canal,
demolitions, or killing innocent Iraqis . When you are doing something, you have to
keep an objective in mind of why you are doing something. I have an objective, I want to have fun and do it with 100% feeling that I am safe and if
anyone is around, that they are safe too. I also want to give kids out there a device that they can safely use without having to make AP or HMTD.
I have set out to create an ultimate NPED device that a 15 year old Phone could have made safely and still had fun. Kids are desperately jumping to AP
and HMTD because they want the thrill and are young enough to ignore dangers of those chemical, while not having the resources and knowledge to make a
more complex, stable primaries.
I am at the last testing stage of this device. For 18 months I've came up with bunch of flawed methods and now I got it. As long it passes the
effective initiation of kinepack mixtures, I'm giving out for the kids to use. Kids who are already making AP/HMTD/MEKP will have a safe option. And
kids who are too young definitely won't be able to make it.......it's not like flash powder "bang". And the ill-intentioned won't be able to employ it
because it can't be set off remotely/fuse in any way shape or form nor can it pass metal detection in any public place.
I have looked for an effective method for someone to make explosives truly safe and accessible and was disappointed. What exactly can you contribute
by calculating energy release of some formula? Squat, that's what.
Me, I'll actually save people's lives because I did not do chemistry with blinders on and looked for a problem solution.
[Edited on 29-11-2010 by dawson01912]
You ask me if I have God complex? I am God.
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gregxy
Hazard to Others
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This section on the forum really needs a "sticky" on safety. It could prevent
some accidents. Plus if these comments (and horror stories etc) were in one place
then maybe members would not feel the need to keep repeating them
every time a new guy shows up asking how to make ETN.
Here is a thread that I started a while back, perhaps it could be cleaned up for
this purpose.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13466#...
Another suggestion:
Create a sticky where the senior members that
actually know about these things writes a page each for all the common
compounds. (or just cut and paste from Davis if appropriate). Telling
people to "use the search engine" does not help when there is so much bad
information.
[Edited on 29-11-2010 by gregxy]
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dawson01912
Banned
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@ Polverone
In 3 weeks I will be> than any amateur scientist you know. Except maybe Gerald Hurst, cause he came up with kinepack and I need kinepack for my
invention. 
[Edited on 29-11-2010 by dawson01912]
You ask me if I have God complex? I am God.
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dawson01912
Banned
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@gregxy
There is one thinking person. These stiffos are trying to pretend that just by covering their eyes on accidents that happened and telling people to go
read a book is gonna solve anything. That's why forums lose young kids. Cause of those stiffos who never give useful advice, act arrogant, and don't
know jack sh*t about teenage psychology.
You ask me if I have God complex? I am God.
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
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Mood: analytical
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The energetic materials section is not a freewheeling chat room or blog. This is a science forum. Thread topics here should have some technical
merit as topics for discussion and the discussion replies should be relevant. In discussions involving chemistry, equations and stoichiometry and
references can say plenty to add clarity to the discussions. Please search for earlier discussions of contemplated new topics and reply to an existing
topic if the subject matter is pertinent.
Safety is something that is too general to be made a topic pretext for a wave of topic threads that will use safety as the entry point for broad
discussions. Experiments with energetic materials is simply not a safe "hobby" for kids.
If there is a Lab Safety section established, then safety related topics can be properly posted there.
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Rosco Bodine
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Thread Closed
28-11-2010 at 23:18 |
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