anacharsis
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 17-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
H2SO4 + NaCl
Can anyone tell me what you would get if you mix Sulfuric acid with Salt? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
Choking gas.
|
|
|
Highlander.
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 15-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
2NaCl + H2SO4 ---> 2HCl + Na2SO4
Hydrogen Chloride gas and Sodium Sulfate in solution.
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
You get an A+ on your homework if we answer the question correctly for you and scolded by the moderators for not placing this in the beginners section
of the forum or for failing to use the search engine.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You're such a harlot, you... 
Next anacharsis will be trying it with battery acid and wonder why he's not choking... It might induce a catharsis...
[Edited on 28-6-2010 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
The bisulphate is formed at ordinary temperatures.
Sodium sulphate forms only on strong heating. . .
. . . 2HCl + 2NaHSO4
|
|
|
Anders Hoveland
Banned
Posts: 208
Registered: 15-6-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I tried CaCl2 and NaSO4H. Interestingly, both of these are byproducts of the chemical industry, NaSO4H from making HCl, as described above, and CaCl2
was a big byproduct from the now outdated Solvay process for making baking soda. They used to try pawning off CaCl2 for road ice salt, and NaHSO4 was
made into pool pH (-) for cheap.
CaCl2 + NaSO4H --> CaSO4 (precipitate) + NaCl + HCl. I found I could boil out some HCl and condense it.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The Solvay process is now obsolete?
|
|
|
watson.fawkes
International Hazard
Posts: 2793
Registered: 16-8-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As much as the correspondent might want to change the laws of physics,
the Solvay process continues to work just fine. It's not used in North America any more because the mineral trona is easier to dig out of the ground. I learned about trona when I ran into a fellow that worked on one of the mines, but it's also mentioned
in the Wikipedia article about the Solvay process.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ah, yes, Trona, of course...
|
|
|
psychokinetic
National Hazard
Posts: 558
Registered: 30-8-2009
Location: Nouveau Sheepelande.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Constantly missing equilibrium
|
|
Sticky test tubes.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
|
|
|
Anders Hoveland
Banned
Posts: 208
Registered: 15-6-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I was under the impression that a lot of HCl was made from the electrolysis of salt water (the chlorine generated was burned with the hydrogen
generated) to make PVC for pipes, and that NaOH was a byproduct from this, and a little CO2 is bubbled in to make Na2CO3. That was out of my science
encyclopedia set that now is discarded.
I am uncertain though.
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Anders Hoveland  | I was under the impression that a lot of HCl was made from the electrolysis of salt water (the chlorine generated was burned with the hydrogen
generated) to make PVC for pipes, and that NaOH was a byproduct from this, and a little CO2 is bubbled in to make Na2CO3. That was out of my science
encyclopedia set that now is discarded.
I am uncertain though. |
Most HCl is not manufactured - it is a waste product.
Production of vinyl chloride and (when it was still used for
dry cleaning) perchlorethylene produces large amounts of
HCl which is then used down stream.
Electrolysis is an expensive way to make an low value
product.
|
|
|
peach
Bon Vivant
Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
2NaCl + H2SO4 ---> SHIT that SMARTS!
|
|
|
MttLsp
Harmless
Posts: 15
Registered: 11-7-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There are two possible reactions
2NaCl + H2SO4 --> Na2SO4 + 2HCl
This reaction is good if you intend to run the HCl through water to get H3O+ and Cl- (Hydrochloric Acid) since it will produce a higher yield of
hydrogen chloride gas.
However, if your are looking to make some Sodium Bisulfate (NaHSO4) then the reaction will be:
NaCl + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HCl
*Carry out both reactions in a fume hood!!!*
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
A nice reaction for generating a steady stream of anhydrous HCl gas is to mix H2SO4 with CaCl2. It does tend to foam, which can be mitigated by
silicone oil, and by only filling the container like 1/4 full. This reaction is a more efficient use of H2SO4 than using NaCl, since it uses every H+
ion. However, the NaCl reaction is better if you have plenty of H2SO4, since NaHSO4 is more soluble in water and thus much easier to clean up
afterwards.
|
|
|
MttLsp
Harmless
Posts: 15
Registered: 11-7-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm confused...if I used two moles of NaCl for the reaction or 1 mole of CaCl2, I would have 2 moles of HCl either way. So aren't both methods of
equal efficiency if stoiciometric amounts are used?
|
|
|
bbartlog
International Hazard
Posts: 1139
Registered: 27-8-2009
Location: Unmoored in time
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
See what hissingnoise posted, above. At normal temperatures, NaCl only gives you NaHSO4, so you only get one mole of HCl from a mole of H2SO4. Whereas
CaCl2 gets you two moles of HCl from each mole of H2SO4.
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2284
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
Sigh. I remember when reagents were so plentifully available, and so cheap, that getting a little extra HCl from your H2SO4......Would never have
been a consideration.
|
|
|
Chainhit222
Hazard to Others
Posts: 138
Registered: 22-8-2009
Location: peach's mailbox
Member Is Offline
Mood: grignard failing to start
|
|
This is known as the salt cake reaction. I have done it before to get sodium sulfate. I mixed it up in a glass salad bowl in the fume hood (like 400
grams of salt and however much h2so4 you need), then I poured it into a baking dish and put it on the barby at a low temperature to get rid of the
HCl. You can then recrystallize it.
The practice of storing bottles of milk or beer in laboratory refrigerators is to be strongly condemned encouraged
-Vogels Textbook of Practical Organic Chemistry
|
|
|
peach
Bon Vivant
Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hmmmm, I'm not so sure about this CaCl2 mentioning.
I was just trying to work out which would be economically cheaper for producing HCl, NaCl or the aforementioned CaCl2.
Seems I can get 25kg bags of table salt for around £17 - 18. CaCl2 is around £35, plus £8-10 delivery, making it about £43 - £45. Whereas I can
pick the table salt up somewhere in person. I think both table and Ca salt are around .2H2O hydrates, putting them on equal footing there. But,
looking at the boxes of CaCl2 I can get, it says they're around 70-80% pure, whereas table salt is more like 99%. Assuming the impurities won't
produce HCl(g), which may be incorrect, I get...
1kg table salt = ~68p
1kg CaCl2 delivered = ~£1.76
I'd also need around 20% more CaCl2, making it ~£2.11 per equivalent kilo. The calcium salt produces double the moles of gas, chopping it back down
to ~£1.06 for the same volume of gas, 38p more than the table salt.
Even if I use the raw price of the 25kg bag, undelivered, and assume it's 100% pure, it still works out at roughly the same price per mole of gas
released.
The densities of the two are theoretically almost identical, the CaCl2 does tend to come as flakes, which won't pack as nicely.
One advantage of it is obviously getting more gas per unit volume of salt; more from the same size flask essentially. The financial cost per unit of
gas is about the same it seems.
A massive sack of pure, cheap, dry CaCl2 would be nice though. 
I've had the cake pop the flask on rinsing. I'll probably use plastic for that part in the future (xDPE).
[Edited on 17-7-2010 by peach]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Both NaCl and CaCl2 are usually completely dry when bought in retail.
You can buy anhydrous CaCl2 OTC from hardware stores as 'Drymate' or such: as a dehumidifier for cupboards, wardrobes etc. Slightly more expensive
than NaCl (but about as pure, in fact the main contaminant will be NaCl).
How much HCl are looking to produce and what for? For small scale the cost of the chloride isn't worth taking into account.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
