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Anders Hoveland
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Idea for Energetic Ring
#1 nitrosyl bisulfate, made by bubbling NO and NO2 into concentrated H2SO4, adds the NO group, similar to Nitration of urea, yielding nitramine.
#2 anyhydrous ammonia, can be made with NH4Cl and CaO, which I bought at Home Depot (lime).
#3 TrifluoroAcetic anyhydride, which if you do not have, chlorobenzoic acid anyhydride can be used instead. This adds a protecting group which is
electron withdrawing, sparing the NH from oxidation, this can be seen in the Fox/ DADNE synthesis.
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Anders Hoveland
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Is anyone going to comment on this post? I think the above is an excllent idea. Pure urea pellets are available at many gardening stores for
fertilizer. I have performed step #1, nitrosating urea. I added NH2OH, which presumably condensed to
H2NC(=NOH)N=NOH
This would form an explosive salt with dilute perchloric acid. Can someone try this?
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JohnWW
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But do you think you would live to tell the tale, if you tried it?
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psychokinetic
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As it would seem, no.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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quicksilver
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Quite realistically, theoretical chemistry is something that demands to be implemented by those who drew up the lab & have a grounded interest in
energetic materials. Unless it's a known phenomenon, most everyone with a ounce of common sense will simply look it over and move on.
If you want to engage people in conversation regarding potential energetics, they had better be a tried & documented lab. Even if it's in the
milligram range: no one will be doing any experimenting with unknown energetics in your place.
Some of these ideas have more than passing interest, especially if your dealing with an OTC lab!
But theorizing an unknown and leaving it to another to take a chance in their lab...is quite frankly, not very polite.
You would get a wonderful response, should you have completed these synthesis & directed the conversation to the results. Otherwise, the
discussion is simply in the area of theoretical chemistry; which can only go so far.
[Edited on 28-6-2010 by quicksilver]
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-=HeX=-
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While theory is great and all, and the maths works, and it 'looks safe' of paper... You gotta remember. Paper won't blow up and shower you with
nitrating mix or worse at the slightest provocation.
I looked at the theory behind Pentaerythritol Tetraperchlorate and thought 'hey, I may have something useable here'.
All I got was noises like someone was firing a fucking shotgun in my lab, a pile of broken glassware, and a lot of lost money. And probable hearing
damage. When I tried to make another 'interesting' compound by subbing two of the Nitrate groups in NG with an Azide and a Perchlorate, I got toxis
gases, fires, and loud bangs along with a godawful mess.
To think this was with my OWN theoretical chemistry made into practice, no fucking way would I test someone else's theory...
Oh and all the N=N in that ring makes me shit a brick. Unless I am mistaken... That CANT be stable. Well, I probably am mistaken but better an alive
coward than a dead hero-chemist who HAD to try 
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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mfilip62
pierced by a crossbow under a bridge while eating Billy goats
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OK,we have great Idea and now we need some suicidal chemist...
Oh?...me,me,me!!!
Unfortunately I cant obtain chemicals for this,darn....
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Anders Hoveland
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Quote: Originally posted by mfilip62  | OK,we have great Idea and now we need some suicidal chemist...
Oh?...me,me,me!!!
Unfortunately I cant obtain chemicals for this,darn.... |
Perhaps I will have another synthesis that will be within your capability and will be within your risk tolerance. If I design an interesting enough
compound with a not too difficult synthesis, perhaps someone will try it.
I am glad to see all these comments, it lets me know that people are taking a look at my designs, even if they do not always leave a post.
[Edited on 29-6-2010 by Anders Hoveland]
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497
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After some research, I'm afraid the prospects for this don't look too good.. According to references simple carbon substituted 1,2,3,5 oxatriazoles are not known to exist (although polysubstituted ones are known but unstable).. So that
doesn't bode too well for you synthesis.. Even if it could be somehow synthesized, I really doubt it would be nearly that easy.
If anyone still wanted to play with oxatriazoles, this patent might be a good place to start.
[Edited on 29-6-2010 by 497]
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-=HeX=-
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Well. If you were to design something in theory, and provide references to the reactions being workable, etc, and potential OTC workups for some of
the precursors, I would be happy to try on a sub-gram scale sometime. Like, write pretty much a paper on it. Theoretical amounts of reagents, what to
use in excess and what is the limiting reagent, etc. Would make one feel better about testing it.
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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Sedit
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| Quote: Originally posted by Anders Hoveland | | Quote: Originally posted by mfilip62 |
Perhaps I will have another synthesis that will be within your capability and will be within your risk tolerance. If I design an interesting enough
compound with a not too difficult synthesis, perhaps someone will try it.
[Edited on 29-6-2010 by Anders Hoveland] |
Perhaps though, just perhaps... It would be best to take your knowledge and try to fill in the blanks on other peoples synthesis or spend my time in
the lab and less in a book instead of flooding the board with theorys you have no intent of ever attempting. You do not seem an ignorent chemist in
the book sence but as far as practical lab work I feel you may have little if any experiance. I am the opposite and damn proud of it. I would rather
mix A and B in the lab any day then read in a book what A and B does. Books leave out so much information that you just don't gather until you watch A
and B react. |
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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mfilip62
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I vey much interested in new energetic designs and have more than decent risk tolerance and many
experience in handling sensitive energetic substance and I know that there is no such substance on this planet that can hurt you in sub-gram
quantities if you are in full safety gear including military grade gas-mask, something to protect neck and heavy rubber apron and thermo gloves with
iron net...
Only real problem might be destroyed glassware(expensive) and super toxic/corrosive media of reaction.
In my case, biggest problem is lack of chemicals that can't be legally obtained for hobby.
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-=HeX=-
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Well... Acidic spray caused my explosion... Along with glassware-shrapnel... But they invented blast screens, Fume hoods, water-dump tanks, gas masks,
etc.
If I ever get around to it, I may try some of the ideas here. Sadly, due to the death of our fellow scientist, Thomas Fay (Yafmot, its a backwards
'Tom Fay' BTW), I have a lot of work to catch up on.
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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mfilip62
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What happened!?
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-=HeX=-
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Thomas seems to have had a stroke. He had some in the recent past, IIRC before/directly after christmas. It was that general timeframe. He told me
that if he vanished to check up. I went, I checked, and I found an obituary. Died on May 2nd, 2010. Thomas Fay, Sacramento, California.
We were working on a project, and well... With the loss of his guidance I am totally lost.
He was a wise man, one I respected a lot.
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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mfilip62
pierced by a crossbow under a bridge while eating Billy goats
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I am sorry to hear that.
Pardon my ignorance,but what was a project!?
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-=HeX=-
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You may have seen my efforts to create a caseless detonator system?
Well, I came up with over 100 variants, all worked like a charm. Now, I then came out with the CLD v2.0 series using more impressive techniques, then
finally the v3.0 which was the 'ultimate caseless initiation system'.
We figured it was patentable, so we discussed ways to integrate it into modern munitions technology to make any 'changeover' easier, hence making
capitalizing on it far easier. He had many an interesting idea, all of which helped improve and refine the system a bit more.
Seeing as he cannot benefit from it anymore, and I would feel bad taking some of a dead mans work and making money, I am making it open source for
everyone to mess with.
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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mfilip62
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Well,I am pretty sure he would like that you make money instead of some big company...
Can you give me some details on that,I didn't heard anything aout it,but it sounds very interesting!
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-=HeX=-
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I will link you to the thread on SRX where I posted certain writeups. They are more archival than anyhthing, and they are all 'older series'. I am
working on a nice .pdf for the new ones.
BTW, if I have not already said it, Microtek was the inspiration for them originally.
http://www.shadowrx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60
That is the thread at the moment. It contains the original write ups of, IIRC, two of em.
After that, the thread goes a bit messy.
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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mfilip62
pierced by a crossbow under a bridge while eating Billy goats
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Actually,you are using some kind of polymerized / peroxide bounded NC and HMX.
That is a great idea, but I don't really see how this might be useful.
First, using metal blasting caps allows you to crimp cord inside, it is much more resistant on conditions and
allows you to use shaped charge design.Only use of this that I can see are terrorist attacks.
Posting info on how to make something ingenious that can have pretty malicious use and can't be easily
detected on airport in these times it may only get you into troubles.
I would like to work on that project with you, my goal is to make fully working, inexpensive, stable, powerful and cheap primary explosive
and put it into actual working design. But believe me,it is best to patent it now and let it for some better times.
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-=HeX=-
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Well, I won't go into the ethics (terrorism) of the design... But in 'safety' and performance it out-did the #8's that I got my dirty hands on...
Those were the 'original' designs. The current ones use the same idea - no inert bits - and also happen to be EBW or Micro-Shock Tube (my own design)
fired. They also incorporate a nifty booster system that was VERY fun to fuck about with.
Ever thrown a blasting cap in a fire? It explodes. Caseless ones do not. Anyways, I believe not using metals would lower costs, no?
Also, if you wish to discuss primaries... Well lets just say I have messed with a lot of them. The one (2,4-nitroaniline reacted with HNO2 to
'diazotize' (wrong spelling) then perchlorated) can initiate PETN in amounts my scale called '~1mg'. It can initiate TNT in as little as 14mg amounts.
I still cannot find anything that 'hot'. It is also incredibly safe to 'play with', far safer than HMTD in my opinion. Anyways, gotta head - more job
interviews await.
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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quicksilver
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-{please excuse my OT post:}-
I certainly don't mean to butt in but a lot of us are older or have health issues or both. On this discussion board I believe (including myself) there
are certainly over a dozen guys well over 50 yrs old). As time moves on, you hear more & more of the folks you've written to have passed on.
I am also sad to hear of his passing. He was a polite, intelligent fellow.
[Edited on 1-7-2010 by quicksilver]
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The_Davster
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| Quote: Originally posted by mfilip62 | Only use of this that I can see are terrorist attacks.
Posting info on how to make something ingenious that can have pretty malicious use and can't be easily
detected on airport in these times it may only get you into troubles.
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Then many scientists would be in trouble. I know of several publications in journals producing a new explosive that will not be detected by
conventional means. This is not their stated goal of course.
Furthermore, a caseless det that contains HMX and nitrate esters is already detectable. It just removes the x-ray signature of a tube.
While I do not doubt the energetic abilities of your dets there are other issues for a initiation system to find practical use.... Notably thermal
stability.
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mfilip62
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Hex,that might be true,disposal of warheads with such fuse might be more safer,
but other than being cool idea...I still prefer No.8 and I can get them any time.
(I know it is very hard to find them In EU and USA so this makes sense...)
I doubt that would be less costly than metal casing, it is negligibly sawing compared to the new machinery required for that.
Other issue is stability, metal are much more durable and resistant to conditions than compressed HE alone
and any military is fanatical about reliability.
Other ethical problem than terrorism might be use in totally undetectable landmines,for example only metal part in most AP mines is
metal in blasting cap which makes them very hard to detect, without that...
(To make myself clear,I don’t give a damn about ethics, just trying to mention all cons and pros!)
Other than that it might be great invention if you find great primary ,but only problem being it's reactivity with metals, that makes sense!
Still, I would be very glad to have my hands on those blasting caps of yours!
(Do you know how to synthesize that stuff your mentioned!?)
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-=HeX=-
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I have a synth, try the following link:
http://www.shadowrx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59
It is the methods I used. It is a BEAUTIFUL stuff 
That is where i posted the data. It is a copy of a post I wrote elsewhere. Hope you find it useful. BTW, props go to Microtek and PDB for those two
energetics...
Perhaps if I went with the traditional #8 design, and used different primaries/secondaries to the usual... However, I suppose I am a tad biased toward
my design
Though, it is hardly soldier proof! Dropping it, it falls to little bits 
Oh, as for those 'nitrate detectors', they don't work. A year ago I went through Shannon, Heathrow, and Birmingham airports with sheets of flash paper
(nitrocellulose) in my pockets. Nothing was said. Though when my belt buckle beeped in Birmingham Sgt. Pat Stroke started feeling me up
I appreciate, BTW, all 'ripping apart' of my design. It helps me improve it
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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