If_6_was_9
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terrorists planning chemical warfare
Very Nasty’
Potential Bomb Plot Involved Deadly Chemical
By Brian Ross and Christopher Isham
April 5 — British authorities believe terror suspects arrested last week were planning to make a bomb that would include a highly toxic, easily
obtained chemical called osmium tetroxide, ABCNEWS has learned.
Used primarily in laboratories for research, osmium tetroxide is known to attack soft human tissue and could blind or kill anyone who breathed its
fumes. According to the New Jersey Department of Health, it is a colorless to pale yellow solid with a strong, unpleasant odor.
"It's a nasty piece of work," said Dave Siegrist, a bioterrorism expert at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies in Arlington, Va.
"It irritates the eyes, lungs, nose and throat. It leads to an asthma-like death, what we call a 'dry-land drowning.' "
Scientists say if, for example, the bomb used in the 1993 World Trade Center attack had produced such fumes, they would have wiped out the first
police and rescue workers on the scene.
"They become overwhelmed by fumes," said Jerry Hauer, an expert on biological and chemical terrorism and director of public health
preparedness at the Department of Health and Human Services, describing what could have happened. "They can go blind. This is not a benign
chemical. It is very nasty."
Eight British citizens of Pakistani descent were arrested and taken into custody when 700 police raided 24 locations in and around London on March 30.
Investigators say British authorities moved in when they learned from electronic intercepts the dangerous chemical was involved in the plot. They had
been the tracking group's activities for several months.
According to sources, there was some indication the group in custody was targeting Gatwick airport, the British public transportation system and
enclosed shopping areas. British authorities feared it had the potential to be one of the worst attacks ever against the United Kingdom.
Even though the arrests were made in the United Kingdom, authorities say the operation was being run out of Pakistan by a suspected al Qaeda figure.
"They are creative in their planning," said Hauer. "They continue to work around our systems."
New Terror Link
This is the first time osmium tetroxide has been linked to possible terror use. It's sold, with few questions asked, on Internet sites, as are
many industrial chemicals that could be equally as potent.
"You never see the supplier and the supplier never sees you," said Siegrist. "A package arrives on the doorstep a few days later."
U.S. officials say the likelihood of a chemical bomb is much greater than a biological and radiological one. Yet the United States has still not
settled how to tighten restrictions on what are known as toxic industrial chemicals, which are well-known to al Qaeda bomb-makers and still easily
available.
ABCNEWS' David Scott and Madeleine Sauer contributed to this report.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/poison_bomb...
[Edited on 6-4-2004 by If_6_was_9]
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Nick F
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I can think of cheaper alternatives! They were either stupid or VERY rich...
Just checked one source - $145/g. Obviously that's for a pure reagent and in small quantities, but still...
And how much conc. sulphuric, or liquid chlorine etc could you get for that? Dispersed with a big ANFO charge, it would be infinitely more cost
effective.
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vulture
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This is pure scaremongering. The people arrested had plans for buying osmiumtetroxide, they didn't possess it.
Furthermore, it's not only hideously expensive, but also NOT easily acquired, contrary to what the article says. Osmium is a very rare element
and demand is low. Chem suppliers won't stock more than 50g or so.
An ANFO charge detonated under a few hundred liters of CCl4 would produce phosgene and be endlessly more effective.
[Edited on 6-4-2004 by vulture]
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Organikum
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| Quote: |
Yet the United States has still not settled how to tighten restrictions on what are known as toxic industrial chemicals
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Now everybody knows what is to come. Even higher restrictions for usual industrial chemicals will make chemistry a near to impossible hobby. 
And the terrorists will buy their stuff furtheron bulk like in Spain or use what they got as present some years ago from the US or other goverments.
As long chances to be accidentially shot by an policeman are much higher than chances to die from terrorists bombs, I would like to say thats barking
against the wrong tree.
Some facts:
- They are suspected to be terrorists - there is no prove obviously.
- authorities "believe". Again, they dont know shit, they just make something up as they have probably nothing against the
"terrorists".
- "highly toxic, easily obtained chemical" - thats a plain lie as was shown by vulture.
The main terrorists around are the authorities and the press as they steer fears and feelings of insecurity and menace in the population and THATS the
definition of terror.
They are not fighting terrorism, they are fighting our freedom.
[Edited on 6-4-2004 by Organikum]
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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a bad moon rising.......
| Quote: | Originally posted by Organikum
They are not fighting terrorism, they are fighting our freedom.
[Edited on 6-4-2004 by Organikum] |
Yes they are! And rather cleverly I might add.
Even though I may disagree with thier intentions, I must say, I admire the simplicity and efficacy of their tactics.
It seems to go something like this.
1. Identify a boogeyman
2. Frighten the sheep with stories of the boogeymen.
3. Offer to protect the sheep from the boogeymen (at a price).
4. Fleece the sheep.
Note....Boogeymen can and have included "Immigrants, nazi's, japs, foreigners, commies, muslims....whatever happens to be in style at the
time"
It's not very original, but it has enduring popular appeal. It just works.
I think, what would be the wise thing to do, from our point of view is to identify those items which may become vastly more difficult to get
in the near future, and stock up on them while we still can.
That way, no matter what way the political wind blows in coming months/years, we'll still be able to do useful chemistry.
I believe that trying to fight city hall is a LAST resort. It's no use trying to make sense of PR bullshit.
It IS however, a wise idea to use this kind of silliness to gauge which way the wind is blowing.
So, personally I think I'm going to scrape together my pennies and stock up on certain things.
This cesium thing, and other news "expose's" give me the impression that they will be targeting heavy metals sooner than later.
In the meantime, what compounds do you guys feel are useful and might be banned or restricted soon?
[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Hermes_Trismegistus]
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
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Magpie
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buy toluene
When I started reading this forum about 1 year ago I began to become aware of what chemicals were available in my local hardware stores. If I
remember correctly, in the paint section, I could find toluol (toluene). Now all I see is xylol (xylene). I have assumed that toluene was too handy
as a drug precursor and official people must have intimidated the suppliers into making a substitution. Does anyone in the US still find toluol on US
shelves?
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The_Davster
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I've seen toluene by the 20L bucket up here in Canada. A couple years ago when I was in hawaii I saw some toluene too, I'm sure this is
probally not really sugnificant to you but it being in Hawaii shows that theres probally no national ban on it now in the states.
[Edited on 7-4-2004 by rogue chemist]
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BromicAcid
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My local hardware stores in Michigan sell toluene by the 5 gallon metal bucket. But they used to sell it in 1 gal and 1L containers, but those are
mysteriously missing.
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Geomancer
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Used to be, prior to September 2001, a least one of the home improvement warehouse things (I think it was a Lowe's, but there are a few Home
Depots about, too) sold toluene. I look for it every time I go there, but haven't seen it since then. Same deal with sodium nitrate, which used
to be in the nursery sections of several of those stores. The irony is, I have 10lbs of KNO<sub>3</sub>, but want
NaNO<sub>3</sub>.
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vulture
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Thinner usually contains up to 85% toluene, cut with acetone or MEK. One run with a fractionating column should get you fairly pure toluene.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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darkflame89
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Osmium tetraoxide is interesting, never seen such chemical for. What is for actually, i have never actually seen osmium before , much less to say
pictures of it.
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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Pyrovus
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Would osmium tetroxide even be stable at explosion temperatures? It's in a pretty high oxidation state (+8!), and compounds in unusually high
oxidation states do tend to decompose on heating.
Never accept that which can be changed.
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Magpie
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OsO4
I had never heard of osmium tetroxide until last year when I took a course in organic chemistry. My instructor presented it as an oxidizer for the
formation of a diol from an alkene. The example was cyclohexene to cis-1,2-cyclohexane diol. This can also be done with cold KMnO4/OH-. It was
noted that OsO4 is toxic and expensive, as we now know. KMnO4 is used more often even though OsO4 gives a better yield of diol.
The way the diol intermediate is formed makes me wonder if Os is at an oxidation state of +6 in OsO4.
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Pyrovus
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| Quote: |
The way the diol intermediate is formed makes me wonder if Os is at an oxidation state of +6 in OsO4
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This would make it even less stable, as this would require not all of the oxygens to be in a -2 state, making it a peroxy compound. This would make it
pretty useless as a poison gas dispersed by an explosive.
Never accept that which can be changed.
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Magpie
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Os valence in OsO4
A little research showed that Pyrovus is correct and that the Os oxidation state in OsO4 is +8. Sorry for the idle speculation on my part.
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fritz
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Hm, this is bigwig-terrorism! shooting with gold-bullets, using CL-20 in platinum-tubes and OsO4 as chemical-warfare -agent!
By the way: while some reading on Chemical-warfare agents I stumbled over a mixture the Germans stockpiled in WWII:
"aeroform" an incendiary consisting of Mg/Al/As2O3 when burning it forms Mg/Al-arsenides which release AsH3 in contact with water (when
trying to extinguish burning objects or whatever). This compound seems to be "usefull" it has a Ct (product of concentration in mg per m3
times the time in minutes someone is in contact with the stuff) of 1000...2000 in forrests when 50...100g of the stuff is distributed over a place of
1m2. Th British who found some of the stuff tested it after the war in tropical forrests and got a "better" effect which perhaps led to some
further development of the device...
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If_6_was_9
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This looks scary. Check this out:
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/Sto...
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AngelEyes
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myuo is right.
They could have said that they'd caught terrorists with hundreds of gallons of 'weapons grade DiHydrogen Monoxide' and caused a
widespread panic...until people realised that DiHydrogen Monoxide is just water. And that weapons grade just means it will work in a squirter...
It's all semantics, buzzwords and soundbytes becuase the authorities regard the general public as thick and gullible.
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vulture
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*Applauds*
Razor sharp analysis myuo! If only journalists were like you...
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Magpie
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another ricin incident
A man in Kirkland, Washington was recently arrested for possesion of ricin. It was noted that he was mentally ill.
This was discoverd by "authorities" as they had been notified by a seed company that the arrested man had ordered 5 lbs of castor beans.
This just adds to my feelings of paranoia about being an amateur chemist. I know that any raw material that can be construed as a precursor to
anything potentially harmful is being watched by officious clerks everywhere.
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fvcked
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Whats next? Tighter regulation of aspirin? I mean come on, this is getting rediculous. And Im sure that if I order 10 smoke detectors with Americium
the feds will be knocking on my door.
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unionised
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Just a few random thoughts;
Which would make a better chemical weapon, £100 worth of OsO4 or £100 worth of Cl2? (that's about a gram and about a pound respectively).
If I bought a few castor beans and grew plants from them , harvested the seeds, grew them, and so on; how long would it be before I had 5Lbs of castor
beans?
Do the "authorities" really have that little clue or was that a set-up of some sort?
(BTW, buy your smoke detectors at the supermarket, one at a time with the groceries and pay cash)
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Proteios
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meh... again as a professional chemisty... OsO4 is one of those chemical, like cyanides, BuLi etc, which you try not to use.... for a long and happy
life! It really is quite toxic, and absorbs through the skin pretty well. Kills you in a pretty nasty fashion too!
However as a terrorst weapon ITS A JOKE!
1) Its very expensive
2) Due to its niche uses, its increadably easy to trace. Theres proably only a few Kg of the stuff in the UK!
3) delivery (getting it to kill people) is virtually impossible.
4) clean up is a joke, just flush the area with lots of water.
Nasty chemical for cleanup are things like
dioxin, chlorodiphenols, no biodegradabiliy, v. carinogenic.
Anyone who has put pen to paper and done the calculations will have come to the simple conlcusion that in order to use chemical as a WMD you need an
army. Terrorist CANNOT deploy chemical weapons as WMD. Small scale attacks on enclosed areas such as subways are plausible.
Making chemical weaponry is a mugs game. Without good facilities the manufacturer has a high chance of killing himself. When the weapon is deployed
(practically difficult), people just have to leave the immediate vicinity to not die.
In all the above respect convential weapons are better (Madrid), bombs seem to be old school and dont seem to capture people imagination like chemical
weaponry.
The best terrorist weapon yet deployed has turned out to be nothing more sophisticated than box cutters and plane tickets.
[Edited on 18-4-2004 by Proteios]
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If_6_was_9
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What ever gets people into church.
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