| Pages:
1
2
3 |
Tacho
National Hazard
Posts: 582
Registered: 5-12-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Bismuth from its Subsalicylate (Pepto-Bismol®)
I would like to make a few grams of metallic bismuth.
Any chance I could get it from Pepto Bismol (bismuth subsalicylate)?
Any sugestions would be appreciated.
<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: merged 4
threads; replaced subject of first thread, "Bismuth out of Pepto Bismol."]
[Edited on 8.8.13 by bfesser]
|
|
|
Organikum
resurrected
Posts: 2339
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: frustrated
|
|
I dont know how you can get it from Pepto Bismol, but I know that there are pellets for shotguns available which contain mostly bismuth. They are as
replacement for lead-pellets for not contaminating the environment with lead. Dont get the steel-shot so....
Every better sorted hunters/weapon shop will have it or can order it. As it is thought to get mostly dispewrsed all over the earths surface there
should be no problem at all to get it - cheap.
|
|
|
Friedrich Wöhler
Harmless
Posts: 42
Registered: 7-2-2004
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Tacho,
http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/pigmen13.htm#wismutmalerei
Its a German store for painting artists. ("Wismut" = Bismuth)
Well, Brazil is very far from here, but also there must be a source like this...
Kein Schwanz ist so hart wie das Leben.
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
Besides, you can get bismuth from arts supplies (not pigment supplies such as kremer), it is sold pure in kg amounts, and sold as low melt alloys 
[Edited on 13-2-2004 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
axehandle
Free Radical
Posts: 1065
Registered: 30-12-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: horny
|
|
Ah... yes! Now I also remember. Bismuth is indeed used as a replacement for lead shotgun pellets in countries where the politocrats haven't
realized that lead in pure form is NOT an environmental hazard. I know of only one such place: the US of A. Here, the politocrats are making laws to
replace the lead with iron. Idiots. A gun barrel wouldn't like that after a thousand shots.....
Edit: Try a local gun store that deals in equipment for hand loading.
[Edited on 2004-2-14 by axehandle]
My PGP key, Fingerprint 5D96 E09E 365D 1867 2DF5 C2FE 4269 9C19 E079 CD35
\"Verbing nouns weirds the language!\"
|
|
|
rikkitikkitavi
Hazard to Others
Posts: 192
Registered: 17-6-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
some lead/tin alloys for soldering and making of tin-caracters (I dont know the exact word, but you know the small figures all boys used to make when
12) contains Bi for lowering the melting point. Shouldnt be to hard to separate them chemically.
/rickard
|
|
|
hodges
National Hazard
Posts: 525
Registered: 17-12-2003
Location: Midwest
Member Is Offline
|
|
Electrolysis
If you really are intent on getting the bismuth from Pepto-Bismal, I would think electrolysis would do it. Sharpen both ends of two pencils. Connect
the two pencils to a 6V lantern battery and dip the other ends in the Pepto-Bismal. Metal should form on the negative pencil lead.
Obviously, yields are not going to be too great, but if you just want to do it, it should work. I hear you can also prepare mercury from
Mercurichrome (sp?) this way.
|
|
|
I am a fish
undersea enforcer
Posts: 600
Registered: 16-1-2003
Location: Bath, United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ichthyoidal
|
|
If you just want a small piece of bismuth, check out shops that sell rocks and fossils. They sometime sell bismuth crystals.
1f `/0u (4|\\| |234d 7|-|15, `/0u |234||`/ |\\|33d 70 937 0u7 /\\/\\0|23.
|
|
|
Geomancer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 228
Registered: 21-12-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Axehandle: Please check your facts before insulting people. Detrimental effects from the use of lead shot are well documented. Lead poisoning kills
about 2-3 percent of the US waterfowl population annually. Moreover, lead containing waterfowl present a hazard to anything that eats them. Problems
arising from sublethal doses have not been so well examined but undoubtedly exist. IIRC some indications are present of acccumulation in fish of lead
from elemental sources, but I'm not sure of the details.
As regards your gun barrels, only the ignorant would let hard shot contact them in the first place. Use a shot cup.
|
|
|
Mr. Wizard
International Hazard
Posts: 1042
Registered: 30-3-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Bismuth shot is a rather scarce item. I bought a box of shells from Cabela's and emptied out the shot. It is rather pricey. I was going to try
some of the diamagnetic levitation tricks.
|
|
|
Tacho
National Hazard
Posts: 582
Registered: 5-12-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thank you all!
I'm pretty sure I'll get some elemental bismuth soon using all these tips!
Hodges, to get it from pepto bimol, yours was a very good Idea. I just found out that adding some HCl to the thick pepto bismol emultion turns it into
a clear colorless solution, ready to electrolisys. Ill try this Idea first. I was thinking of reduction with carbon at high temperatures, but that
would be messy and, maybe, useless.
If my math is right, there is 5,7g of bismuth to every 10g of dry, pure subsalicylate.
Reagent grade elemental bismuth cost the equivalent of about 50 euros for 100g around here!
I want it because I'm curious about it's unique magnetic properties. It is reppelled by magnets.
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
Heating it strongly should work. Organic heavy-metal salts decompose to the carbonate and then the carbonate decomposes to the oxide. The carbon that
is made during the decomposition should then reduce the oxide, however I think there's going to be an excess of C, so the resulting metal
isn't going to be very pure.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
IIRC you can reduce bismuth (III) compounds with tin(II) in alkaline solution.
|
|
|
Tacho
National Hazard
Posts: 582
Registered: 5-12-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you basify the pepto bismol and dilute it 1:2 in water, the bismuth salt sediments.
If you acidify and pass through a sieve the sedimented salt, dilute in water, you end up with an almost clear solution.
I found out by accident that if you put a thick aluminum foil in this clear solution, dark gray powder precipitates from the foil.
A-ha! A reduction of bismuth by aluminum! Al reduction potential= -1,66, Bi red. pot.= -0,46 , 0,32 or 1,8. Well, I don’t know why Bi has 3
different potentials but they are all bigger than –1,66, so reduction by Al foil makes sense I guess... The only table I could find that had Bi
in it is very confusing.
Well, then things started going wrong! I washed, filtered and dried this precipitate, but when I tried to melt it down, it didn’t. It smoked and
glowed as if it were burning. Remained a black (not yellow as oxide and hydroxide should be) oxide-like thing, about 1cc of it. I tried to flux it
with borax, but made things worse.
I would appreciate comments about this, specially opinions about if that precipitated could really be bismuth and, if so, what flux can I use to melt
it to a nice shiny blob.
|
|
|
kaviaari
Hazard to Self
Posts: 80
Registered: 21-12-2005
Location: Finland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Going green
|
|
Metallic bismuth from diarrhea medicine
This process might be quite well known.
I found out that certain diarrhea medicine contains over 0.5g of bismuth subsalicylate per pill. Every pack has the total of ten pills in it. First of
all I thought that if I would like to take bismuth out as a metal I had to figure out how to dissolve it. First I tried 2M hydrochloric acid. The
piece off pill only formed a white precipitate. I thought that if the bismuth subsalicylate had broken down to ions I could reduce the metal out with
zinc. I took a piece of zinc sheet and dropped it into the tube. Hydrogen was formed but I didn't recieve the black bismuth precipitate. Ok, so I had
to make a bismuth compound that dissolves easily to acid. It took a while, but then I came up with heat. If the salicylate could be turned to oxide. I
went outside and heated the pills in a crucible. Some smoke came off and after few minutes I could clearly see some yellow spots of bismuth oxide. I
turned off the heat and dosed few millilteres of 1M hydrochloric acid in a test tube. I poured the yellow-black-brown stuff from cucible among the
acid. The tube was shaken and then left alone in hot water bath for few minutes. The organic stuff didn't dissolve so I filterated the solution in
another tube. When I added the piece of zinc in I saw the most beautiful sight. The heavy bismuth was precipipating and falling at the very bottom of
the tube. When all of the bismuth had reduced I filterated it.
The product is quite crude and one can see some impurities on it. Any ideas for purification? It would be neat to melt it and have those beautiful
bismuth crystals.
[Edited on 23-12-2006 by kaviaari]
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nice experiment.
I don't know how experienced you are in this sort of thing so I'm hesitant to say this but I have reduced bismuth from the oxide using charcoal with
sodium hydroxide as a flux. Obviously the molten sodium hydoxide is very nasty stuff. It eats glass so I used an tin can as a cheap "crucible".
If you are sure you know what you are doing then this might be a suitable way to clean up the stuff you have. The NaOH will dissolve any zinc
compounds. (I'm away visiting my family over Xmas and the new year so I won't be able to offer any advice until I get back.)
I wonder if anyone else has any experience with this sort of thing.
|
|
|
kaviaari
Hazard to Self
Posts: 80
Registered: 21-12-2005
Location: Finland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Going green
|
|
That sounds very good. I'll convert all of my pills to oxide and then give it a try. I'll report the results as soon as I can.
[Edited on 23-12-2006 by kaviaari]
[Edited on 23-12-2006 by kaviaari]
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
With such a supply of Bi-209, if you can then get your hands on some Ra-226 and Be-9 and intimately mix them to result in a neutron source, you can
then make your own Po-210. You could then use this to poison any ex-KGB agents whom you dislike, or anyone else with whom you disagree.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you had that big a Ra226 source you could use it to poison people with rather than mess about making Polonium. Also, the neutron capture cross
section of Bi is pretty small so you would need a serious neutron source. If you were going to embark on this pointless exercise then it would
probably not be worth converting the Bi to the metal first.
Speaking of not converting it first, I think that heating the bi subsalicylate with excess NaOH would probably work anyway. The organic bits would act
as a reducing agent. Just be very wary of the molten alkali and, of course, do it outside unles you have a propper fume hood.
(What's the weather like in Finland?)
|
|
|
kaviaari
Hazard to Self
Posts: 80
Registered: 21-12-2005
Location: Finland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Going green
|
|
I am quite familiar with molten alkalies (I made sodium by electrolysis a while ago) and I have red bromicacids experinments too  . It's not snowing or raining here in Finland (nor is here any snow) so I suppose that
I can easily do the experiment outside. Of course a fume hood would be very nice . Problem is with the outlet. And when living with parents one can't just drill a hole in the wall. My lab is also getting too small in every
possible way. Chemicals and glassware are eating up space and I have no idea where I am going to place the rotary vaporator that I'm going to recieve
after new year.
[Edited on 23-12-2006 by kaviaari]
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"And when living with parents one can't just drill a hole in the wall. My lab is also getting too small in every possible way."
I know what you mean, I live alone and have my own house. I still don't have enough space.
(BTW, at the risk of sounding very English and talking about the weather, would you normally expect to have snow by late December. We have had a
remarkably warm Autumn/ Winter so far and I wonder how widespread it is.
|
|
|
kaviaari
Hazard to Self
Posts: 80
Registered: 21-12-2005
Location: Finland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Going green
|
|
| Quote: |
(BTW, at the risk of sounding very English and talking about the weather, would you normally expect to have snow by late December. We have had a
remarkably warm Autumn/ Winter so far and I wonder how widespread it is. |
True. In normal winters we would have snow by late December, and to speak truly so did we have this time too. It snowed a lot, I mean a lot in just
few days and after that it all melted away. From there we haven't had much snow.
Shall we blame the global warming?
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
We also have a remarkably warm autumn and winter. Over here in the Netherlands, we had more than 20 C in October, and up to now, we didn't have a
single day of frosty weather!
But back on topic, I have some basic bismuth nitrate. I did some experiments with reducing that, but it seems it does not work. The basic nitrate
needs a strongly acidic environment to keep the bismuth dissolved and under those conditions, the metal seems not to precipitate (too much nitrate in
it?).
|
|
|
UnintentionalChaos
International Hazard
Posts: 1454
Registered: 9-12-2006
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline
Mood: Nucleophilic
|
|
It's depressingly warm here in the Northeastern US. It's warm enough to be outside without any jacket (although I wear tee-shirts year round anyway).
It was freezing cold for most of october and part of november, but It's quite warm now. At least I can do some of my experiments outside later than I
thought I would 
I'm with you Kaviaari and Unionized. I've consumed my father's workbench in the garage (not that he uses it too often anyway) and have absolutely no
way to vent fumes. I have to go outside for that kind of thing.
I think I may have some of those pills around so I may have to try this...now for my minor acid problem, and by minor, I mean extremely irritating.
I'd just distill HCl drain cleaner but I don't have anywhere near the proper setup. I'd end up eating a hole in something.
|
|
|
mericad193724
Hazard to Others
Posts: 121
Registered: 4-6-2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: why do you care?
|
|
Guys,
I am pretty sure there is an easier way to extract metallic bismuth from diarrhea medicine...the liquid type(Pepto-Bismol and friends). I have a book
at home that describes this exact experiment in which you add freshly prepared sodium stannate solution to the pepto-bismol and you get a fine black
suspension of bismuth in the syrup. If diluted with water and filtered, bismuth powder can be obtained. It’s a high school chem. demonstration/lab
from a teacher's book.
I am not at home right now so I can't recall the experiment very well. Maybe you can find it on the web somewhere, good luck!
Happy Holidays
Mericad
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
