h2o2guru
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 3-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Suggestions for kg quantities of ZnBr2? [for zinc bromide batteries]
I ran across a very cool 100+ year old patent for a zinc bromide storage battery, while browsing Google patents. I can't seem to find it at this
moment. (I'll post it later)
The crux of the problem is that it uses a "saturated !" solution of zinc bromide , which if my memory is not too corrupted is over 2Kg per liter !!!!
My problem is to turn Kg's of sodium bromide to Kg's zinc bromide.
I'd rather not deal with kg's of elemental bromine (yikes)
The best idea I've come up with is to a salt split with ion exchange resins. (I have many gallons of cation resin sitting in buckets)
unfortunately I'd have to keep concentrations pretty low to keep from "digesting " the resin . many , many liters !
Anyone have any brainstorms of more elegant procedures ???
h2o2guru
[Edit by mod]
Clarifying title in resurrected thread.
[Edited on 16-2-2020 by j_sum1]
|
|
|
kclo4
National Hazard
Posts: 916
Registered: 11-12-2004
Location:
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sodium Bromide + Zinc Sulfate = Zinc Bromide + Sodium Sulfate
Then, precipitate the Sodium Sulfate.
you probably want to mix the Sodium Bromide with Zinc Sulfate in a saturated solution near boiling. This way upon cooling to near freezing, a
significant amount of the Sodium Sulfate will precipitate. look up the solubility graph and figure it out from that though.
Learn some more chemistry, especially what a double displacement reaction is. Wikipedia is your friend 
--Also you don't need to use kilograms, you can always use different quantities, just keep the ratio's the same.
|
|
|
grind
Hazard to Others
Posts: 120
Registered: 13-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Dry ZnBr2 should be soluble in ether as ZnCl2 does. That is a possible way to further purification after removing the main part of Na2SO4.
|
|
|
Fleaker
International Hazard
Posts: 1252
Registered: 19-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: nucleophilic
|
|
What is wrong with consulting Brauer?
There are numerous methods available in that excellent book which are available for free in our forum's library: start at page 1070.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6333
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Resurrecting this thread.
I came across this video on DIY zinc bromide batteries.
https://youtu.be/CvSYlMtY1Cg
I have not yet read the relevant papers or the 1902 patent. But it looks like a fascinating project. Not too difficult and very practical. I am not
sure about the containment of the bromine when cells are in their charged state. That would strike me as a significant problem in developing an off
grid domestic system.
Based on the video, kclo4's suggestion for producing a mix of Na2SO4 and ZnBr2 would seem to be compatible and straightforward.
Anyway, I thought this worth sharing and perhaps having a go at. I will link the papers here when I get a chance to do some reading.
|
|
|
wg48temp9
National Hazard
Posts: 786
Registered: 30-12-2018
Location: not so United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  | Resurrecting this thread.
I came across this video on DIY zinc bromide batteries.
https://youtu.be/CvSYlMtY1Cg
I have not yet read the relevant papers or the 1902 patent. But it looks like a fascinating project. Not too difficult and very practical. I am not
sure about the containment of the bromine when cells are in their charged state. That would strike me as a significant problem in developing an off
grid domestic system.
Based on the video, kclo4's suggestion for producing a mix of Na2SO4 and ZnBr2 would seem to be compatible and straightforward.
Anyway, I thought this worth sharing and perhaps having a go at. I will link the papers here when I get a chance to do some reading.
|
I watched the video but he gave no indication (if he did I missed it) of the capacity per kg or per cubic meter or in out efficiency. Yes it would
be an interesting experiment if only to give you an idea of how practical or more probably how large the task would be building a battery to
power an off the grid house.
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6333
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Well, you can calculate capacity from the molarity and quantity of solution. And he did quote a current density for charging. I would assume discharge
is not dissimilar. And the theoretical voltage can be looked up from reduction potentials. Not that I have done any of this yet. But it is one of the
things that appeals: it is very figureoutable.
I was actually considering making it in a charged state. If you already have bromine and zinc, then why not?
Realistically, it will be at least several weeks before I can take on a new project.
Edit: phone type errors
[Edited on 16-2-2020 by j_sum1]
|
|
|
wg48temp9
National Hazard
Posts: 786
Registered: 30-12-2018
Location: not so United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
|
|
Having once been a telephone technician I am familiar with the lead acid batterys used in the old electro-mechanical telephone exchanges. Simple
construction just lead plates hanging in a square bath of acid. But when I worked out the size required to run my house it would look some thing
like this:
Ok I am exaggerating for effect LOL. The pic on the left is about 2kW.h battery and the pic on the right is a typical battery room for a bigish city
electro-mechanical telephone exchange. The plates where not plain lead sheets.
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2799
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
What a strange thread. Has everyone forgotten how to make hydrobromic acid?
To make ZnBr2, dissolve zinc in aqueous HBr. Distill off the liquids and you have the solid hydrate. I would have thought I didn't need to link a prep
of HBr, but anyway:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/files.php?pid=156645&...
This prep is actually overkill; you don't need azeotropic HBr, as just any HBr will do.
|
|
|
wg48temp9
National Hazard
Posts: 786
Registered: 30-12-2018
Location: not so United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
|
|
or as you need some sodium sulphate in the zinc bromide you could you could dissolve zinc in dilute sulphuric acid and sodium bromide then
filter off most of the sodium sulphate when its cold.
[Edited on 2/16/2020 by wg48temp9]
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
|
|
|
SWIM
National Hazard
Posts: 970
Registered: 3-9-2017
Member Is Offline
|
|
Robert Murray-Smith
I thought he already solved the world energy crisis with his home-made graphene betteries and retired.
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2799
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
Pardon me, but I wasn't interested in watching a 20-minute video and previous posters in this thread had suggested going as far as using ether to
separate ZnBr2 and Na2SO4.
I answered how to make pure zinc bromide, free of impurities. This is not, of course, the best way to produce a mixture, but it is much nicer than
laboriously separating Na2SO4 from ZnBr2.
But, re: the OP's concern about working with bromine, it does seem to me that bromine would be produced by this battery while in operation, and that
would necessitate having some kind of bromine container one way or the other.
For an at-home DIY battery, the related videos about LiFePO4 seem to result in a less dangerous device.
[Edited on 16-2-2020 by clearly_not_atara]
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6333
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Sorry for the confusion, CNA. I did a search for previous threads on zinc bromide batteries. My questions are not precisely the same as the OP.
My interest is that it seems a ridiculously simple battery to make with (I think) quite a high capacity. Obviously not without drawbacks (or it would
be in commercial use by now). I was interested in whether anyone had any experience with these.
In reality I would think that having tens of litres of Br2 in open containers sitting in your basement is a terrible idea. This is not going to find
an application in domestic storage even if the concept is attractive and interesting. But it could still make for a fun project on a smaller scale.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
