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evil_lurker
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The Chemical Closet part II
Hmmm looks like their website is down... wonder if they closed up shop?
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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MagicJigPipe
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If so, I sure hope it was because of us!
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Pulverulescent
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'Looks like they're gone, alright!
It could be for several reasons---who kno(3)ws what happened!
They could be answering questions from LE; then again. . . . .
P
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Phosphor-ing
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Sweet. Now OU812 has to worry though. That can of RP he ordered will surely be in their records, if it was real in the first place.
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" -Ronald Reagan
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stateofhack
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Phosphor-ing
Sweet. Now OU812 has to worry though. That can of RP he ordered will surely be in their records, if it was real in the first place.
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I doubt it was, looked to "well placed" as in the picture, but then you never now he might be a photographer 
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MagicJigPipe
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I do think he was affilliated with TCC one way or another.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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soxhlet
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Have a look at Jeff Scheidemantel case in California Supreme Court of Kern County.
There is a motion to quash, which was, within the last week, scheduled for 5/20. Also, there is a motion to traverse the search warrant.
Thechemcloset has been subtly outted in the press. The folks here have managed to establish google search links pointing directly to those behind the
operation.
The Bakersfield chemistry teacher case is going to raise some legitimate entrapment questions. I’d guess that the website has been shutdown because
it is only a couple of weeks from being publicized as a matter of public court records.
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ifyoucookitwewillcome
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The Chemical Closet - Jeff Scheidemantel
ref www.kno3.com and thechemicalcloset.co.uk perhaps those sites were ran by the cops who were targeting subjects manufacturing "the plague of our
society." Those of you hobby folks not using chemicals to make meth should support operations like this and should have nothing to fear.
Here is what I found on the chemistry teacher in Bakersfield. Read for yourself....the charges were not dropped as someone reported. There was no
entrapment..nice waste of time on those dicussions....justice was served.
Verdict "GUILTY" of Manufacturing meth in the school chemistry lab. What kind of person, hobbyists or othewise would want their child using meth or
learing how to make meth at school. Check out the link youself.
www.clipsyndicate.com/publish/video/672237
FYI, I heard that about 200 other people are headed down the same path.
METH COOKS SUCK
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ifyoucookitwewillcome
ref www.kno3.com and thechemicalcloset.co.uk perhaps those sites were ran by the cops who were targeting subjects manufacturing "the plague of our
society." Those of you hobby folks not using chemicals to make meth should support operations like this and should have nothing to fear.
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Does that mean that there will be no warrants and searches if a non-drug-making hobbyist orders red phosphorus, iodine, or other "dual use" materials
from sites like kno3.com? How do sting operations distinguish the orders of drug-making customers from those of mere hobbyists?
There is something to fear even if you are, as far as you know, completely law-abiding. Being questioned and searched by police is stressful even if
you really don't have anything to hide. The mere existence of stringent controls on commonplace chemical reagents like iodine and phosphorus, and the
knowledge that some vendors are actually sting operations, has a chilling effect. Institutional researchers and chemical vendors are burdened with
additional paperwork. Some vendors will simply stop selling certain materials rather than deal with the hassle of regulatory compliance. Hobbyists
without an institutional affiliation have an even worse time of it, since fewer vendors are willing to deal with individuals and those that remain are
more likely to be stings.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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ifyoucookitwewillcome
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Ordering Chemicals
There are legal ways to obtain chemicals. May I suggest you avoid importing regulated chemicals from foreign countries.
Unfortunately, the meth cooks have given the hobby folks a bad rap and have made certain chemicals difficult to obtain. Please blame the tweakers
rather than the police.
Start by registering yourself with DEA and then obtain your chems from legit companies within your own country.
Good luck!
"The children are the true victims."
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ifyoucookitwewillcome
Start by registering yourself with DEA and then obtain your chems from legit companies within your own country.
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Hahaha, a good one...
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Sauron
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However that's a non-starter. DEA does not license amateur chemists. They license chemists who have a legitimate need to work with controlled
substances. The requirements for such people to be licensed are rather onerous and include secure storage capabilities similar to what an MD needs to
store narcotics. If someone who does not wish to work with controlled substances approaches DEA they will be turned away.
There is a gray area having to do not with controlled substances per se but with List 1 and List two chemicals that are not controlled substances.
These require DEA notification above certain thresholds. But, you see, many commercial vendors simply will not sell (in USA) to a private individual,
at all. They will only sell to government entities, institutional labs, academia and corporations. This is not a new thing but it is getting worse
instead of better.
All this collateral damage to innocent hobbyists is, I agree, the fault of the drug cooks, but it certainly does not endear law enforcement to the
affected, and guiltless, public, or make your job any easier, does it? Besides, meth can be cooked by a multitude of methods that do not involve red
phosphorus at all.
For sandmeyer's edification this poster is only talking about the US wghen he refers to "your country" - he mistakenly thinks he is addressing an
American-only audience. DEA does not register or license labs outside of USA where it has no jurisdiction. He was not addressing non-US members IMO.
[Edited on 11-9-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ifyoucookitwewillcome
Unfortunately, the meth cooks have given the hobby folks a bad rap and have made certain chemicals difficult to obtain. Please blame the tweakers
rather than the police. |
How about I blame both? Stinking, burning, and exploding drug labs have given people a bad impression of hobby chemistry labs. The approaches adopted
by legislators and police to combat drug labs have made it much more difficult to properly stock a hobby chemistry lab, even if it is odorless, neatly
organized, and free of controlled substances and uncontrolled fires.
There are dozens of routes to meth, most of them don't require phosphorus or iodine, and it appears that an increasing share of American meth is
imported from abroad where DEA regs don't control chemicals anyway. So from my POV cracking down on phosphorus and iodine is like most measures in the
drug war. It brings a temporary decrease in production and spike in prices, then new producers are lured in by the higher prices. The downward trends
in drug production that come with new controls aren't maintained over the long term, but the inconvenience to law abiding users lasts forever.
[Edited on 9-10-2008 by Polverone]
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Sauron
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If by law enforcement you mean only the police then that is a little unfair. The police do not make the laws they enforce. Legislators, invariably
politicians, make those laws at local, state and federal level. The police are stuck with those laws. Rarely do they even get to influence the
legislative process.
Clearly the politicians are floundering around for some means to manage the unmanageable. They have failed, and society at large pays the price (in
tangible and less tangible ways.)
To our new member in Phoenix I would say: clearly the meth ptoblem in your city and country is directly related to the large numbers of undocumented
aliens there who by observation come from the unemployable uneducated lowest classes of their own society and cross the highly porous US border in
search of el Dorado. Some of them are happy to cook meth to get rich quick. The same politicians who write the draconian laws you try to enforce, are
also floundering about the failure of the federal government to protect our national boundary, and there is a great deal of hypocrisy over the issue.
We have 50,000 illegals convicted of serious crimes in federal prisons and Mexico refuses to take them back. They cost the US about $35,000 each per
annum to incarcerate. That's a few billions annually. But I bet in Phoenix you are not allowed to even ask a suspect whether or not he has a green
card. I know in California a cop can be dismissed for doing so in some jurisdictions such as SF.
My friends south of the border assure me that the vast majority of the wonderful people of Mexico, who are educated and have jobs, have not the
slightest desire to wade the Rio Bravo.
Is this or is this not a major component of your problem in Arizona? If so then interdicting illegals may be more to the point than interdicting
chemicals.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
If by law enforcement you mean only the police then that is a little unfair. The police do not make the laws they enforce. Legislators, invariably
politicians, make those laws at local, state and federal level. The police are stuck with those laws. Rarely do they even get to influence the
legislative process.
Clearly the politicians are floundering around for some means to manage the unmanageable. They have failed, and society at large pays the price (in
tangible and less tangible ways.) |
The legislators may dictate strategy but law enforcement has some say in tactics. It is unlikely that a legislature has ever specifically directed the
police to set up sting operations that are as attractive to hobbyists as to drug cooks, pursue drug dealers with military equipment and no-knock
raids, or keep officers out of uniform when testifying for the defense but in uniform when testifying for the prosecution. Law enforcement does have a
choice about just how aggressive and even-handed to act in pursuit of justice.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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DerAlte
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@ Sauron
| Quote: | | If so then interdicting illegals may be more to the point than interdicting chemicals. |
The success of the government of the US in supressing illegal immigration (12,000,000 and rising) is not exactly impressive. Neither is the supression
of illegal drugs. Nor is the control over dangerous (and ineffective) legal drugs by the FDA. Nor is the oversight of financial organizations and the
protection of the currency.
If you have laws, enforce them. If the laws are unjust, change them.
PC = Politically Correct = Positively Cretinous
I find today's world ridiculous. Freedom? Where? Well, here in the US we have a little bit left, but it's seems to be becoming empty rhetoric and
vanishing fast.. We are offered on one side Mc Cain and his pin-up, who has been mayor of a village and governor of a state whose population is about
2/3 of the metropolitan area I live in. He's as old as I am. So the chances this neophyte gains office as president is relatively high. Or the far
left liberal on the other side, equally low on credentials, even if he does happen to be highly intelligent, a rarity in politicians..
So, Sauron, how's the climate in Thailand? I am beginning to see why you are there...
Regards, Der Alte
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Sauron
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Like it or not sting ops are often very efficient and cost effective, and as long as they are, they are likely to continue.
I doubt that you would contest the fact that drug criminals are often heavily armed and violent, sometimes more highly armed than the police. AK47s
cross the border northbound too. The use of SWAT type tactics and no-knock raids (with valid search warrants) help keep officer fatalities down and
minimize the opportunity for perpetrators to destroy evidence and/or arm themselves for a killing frenzy.
It is lamentable that since the 1970s this situation has prevailed and sometimes innocent people are discomfitted. But the statistics on drug related
violence remain and so do the long lists of law enforcement personnel who have died in the course of carrying out their sworn duties against armed,
violent professional drug gangs. You would prefer they taser everyone while the bad guys hose the cops down with an Uzi?
In/out of uniform while testifying, what is this, the American Trial Lawyers Association forum now? This probably has to do with departmental policy
and/or the prerogatives of the prosecutors rather than the individual officers.
You and I are on the same side in this, but I think you are overstating our case.
Stings will be around as long as they keep working. Stings will work till both cooks and hobbyists realize that something that sounds too good to be
true probably isn't.
It is hard to argue with tactics that are designed to keep police officers from being murdered by felons. Do you want to blame the drug gans for being
murderous animals or blame the police (again) for doing their best to stay alive while doing their jobs?
DerAlte, here in Thailand they just shoot meth cooks in the head rather unceremoniously. It may not be any more effective than the US methods but it
saves on incarceration costs and really cuts down on recidivism.
[Edited on 11-9-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
I doubt that you would contest the fact that drug criminals are often heavily armed and violent, sometimes more highly armed than the police. AK47s
cross the border northbound too. The use of SWAT type tactics and no-knock raids (with valid search warrants) help keep officer fatalities down and
minimize the opportunity for perpetrators to destroy evidence and/or arm themselves for a killing frenzy.
It is lamentable that since the 1970s this situation has prevailed and sometimes innocent people are discomfitted. But the statistics on drug related
violence remain and so do the long lists of law enforcement personnel who have died in the course of carrying out their sworn duties against armed,
violent professional drug gangs. You would prefer they taser everyone while the bad guys hose the cops down with an Uzi?
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I haven't seen evidence to indicate that gangs or typical drug dealers are better armed or quicker to violence now than they were 10 or 20 years ago.
Yet high-risk paramilitary tactics are being used increasingly even in cases where there's no reason to believe that suspects will come out with
blazing Uzis if police knock. This seems to be due to increased recruitment of ex-military into police forces and increased funding available for SWAT
equipment. Start handing out hammers and lots of things start looking like nails.
The downside is that police don't always get the right address or raid locations where only gun toting gang members live. More extreme tactics place
civilians who happen to be badly located at more risk. I don't think police should have to meet lethal force with mere tasers but neither do I think
they should escalate preemptively unless there is no safe alternative. I don't want police or suspects placed at more risk than necessary in the
pursuit of justice. Tossing flashbangs into a house and breaking through the door with guns drawn is, IMO, too extreme an approach to the problem of
preventing drug evidence from being flushed.
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Sauron
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Clearly then, you do not have any experience in police operations over the last 40 years in New Orleans, Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Phoenix,
Denver, Los Angeles, Detroit, New York, Miami, etc etc. I never said the drug dealer/drug gangs were more violent than 10-20 years ago. Because 20-40
years ago they were ALREADY extremely violent and heavily armed, often with illegal unregistered automatic weapons, and the SWAT approach grew out of
that, not in recent years. Likewise the police have always recruited heavily from ex-military and the Vietnam veterans were the incoming generation of
police in the 60s and 70s. Before that it was Korean War veterans.
I have friends in the DEA and the police departments of most of the cities I just listed plus the former police columnist for the Washington TIMES who
used to ride with the DC police to obtain material for his column.
Maybe in the Pacific Northwest they have kinder, gentler drug dealers?
Everywhere else they have the Mexican Mafia, various outlaw motorcycle gangs, the Columbians, the Haitians, the Mariel boatlift Cubans, the Jamaican
posses, and the rising Salvadoran and Honduran gangs, battling each other for turf and drug profits and happy to kill police.
I'm afraid Officer Friendly is dead. The drug dealers killed him. You can mourn him or not but you really can't resurrect him.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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vulture
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| Quote: |
Likewise the police have always recruited heavily from ex-military and the Vietnam veterans were the incoming generation of police in the 60s and 70s.
Before that it was Korean War veterans. |
SWAT is supposed to be a life saving organization. How does that square with recruiting people who are trained to kill? It's easy to turn a police
officer into a soldier, but the other way around is bound to create problems.
Erring on the safe side with the use of paramilitary tactis is rather unsafe in this case. Entering a meth lab by blowing out the door and using
flashbangs seems like a good recipe for disaster. Flammable vapors anyone?
Blaming everything on immigrants is ignorant and does not solve anything. Drug labs, dealers and users won't be gone when the border is hermetically
sealed. It's amazing how both anti socialistic rhetoric and installment of DDR like procedures coexist in the US at the time. Those who ignore
history...
[Edited on 11-9-2008 by vulture]
[Edited on 11-9-2008 by vulture]
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Sauron
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Who told you SWAT is supposed to be about saving lives? Some police department public relations pamphlet? I was around when SWAT first came into
exitsance, and it was oriented toward counter-sniping. That is, killing snipers by using snipers. I was involved in the design and development and
sales of the special rifles for this purpose just as I was for the military and I worked with LAPD SAW and many of the large urban departments.
Of course SWAT saves lives, by killing the killers.
Later SWAT got perverted into hostage negotiation and all that but that is not how it got started. And hostage negotion is always backed up by deadly
force surgically applied. Cf. the FBI's so called Hostage Rescue Team, you know, the guys who gave us Waco and Ruby Ridge? Some of those snipers were
old pals of mine.
Now when I think about those old friends, I hear the lines from an old Irish rebel song:
"They burner their way through Munster, and put Leinster on the rack,
In Connaught and in Ulster marched the men in brown and black,
They shot down wives and children in their own heroic way,
and the black & tans like lightning ran from the rifles of the IRA"
Sometimes you need to take lives in order to save them.
Remember "We burned the village in order to save it." ??
Life's little ironies.
By the way, vulture, we have members who live in southern Arizona, and they can tell you firsthand who is doing the meth cooking in their part of the
US. They have told me, and I have told you, and you call that "blaming everything on immigrants" and "ignorant". Hey quicksilver, vulture says you are
ignorant!
Vulture, who do you reckon knows more about what is happening in the US? You, or the people on the scene? Now ask yourself who is ignorant. Take your
political correctness and put it someplace else. It is inappropriate, and it is simply wrong.
[Edited on 12-9-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Sauron
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Forgive the double post but the previous one was getting too long to follow logically.
SWAT grew out of the civil unrest in the US during the 1960s, particularly the racial rioting in 1968, the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Republic of
New Africa, etc etc. The Mark Essex - Howard Johnson's sniper incident in New Orleans, my hometown, was a good example. I lived through all that, and
I was already an adult and a deputy sheriff. So the police departments developed SWAT teams to respond, because regular cops were not trained for it
and often got killed.
All police forces are paramilitary by nature, they are uniformed, have military style ranks, and are armed. So don't kid yourself.
The situation in narcotics enforcement developed similarly. During the same period and from then to the present, the narcotics traffickers began to
acquire more and more firepower, and to use it, on each other in turf wars and on the police. Drug squads responded by using their own beefed up
firepower, along with body armor and sometimes armored vehicles. Sound like a war zone? It was and still is. Hence the War on Drugs.
As to blaming immigrants:
Go to any large American prison and you will find the inmates are mostly black and hispanic and depending on the part of the country you will find
among the blacks, immigrnt Jamaican blacks, Haitian blacks, etc all in for violent drug offences. And Hispanics, including Mexicans, Colombians,
Salvadorans, Hondurans. Cubans who were prison inmates in Cuba and dumped into Florida by Castro in the Mariel boatlift.
Now you can conclude that these are professional criminals and narcotics traffickers who don't care how many people they have to kill, or you can
remain mired in myopic political correctness and conclude that US courts are racially biased.
By the way I have a lot of Dutch friends and they tend to blame the South Moluccans and the Surinamese for a lot of your country's woes.
Now, I know nothing about Holland so I shut up.
So what the hell do you think you know about the USA?
Have you ever lived there?
Have you ever worn a badge and a gun there?
No?
Well, you are still entitled to your opinion even if it isn't worth very much.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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chloric1
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Polverone
There are dozens of routes to meth, most of them don't require phosphorus or iodine, and it appears that an increasing share of American meth is
imported from abroad where DEA regs don't control chemicals anyway. So from my POV cracking down on phosphorus and iodine is like most measures in the
drug war. It brings a temporary decrease in production and spike in prices, then new producers are lured in by the higher prices. The downward trends
in drug production that come with new controls aren't maintained over the long term, but the inconvenience to law abiding users lasts forever.
[Edited on 9-10-2008 by Polverone] |
IMHO this cycle Polverone touches on is actaully a genius idea. Regulate chemicals in the USA which pressures international smuggling hopingn for
higher profit margins, in turn clalling for more legislation. Ths war on drugs as well as the war on terror is perpetual. These are vehicles to
usher in a fascist police state. Have you been seeing more jobs and college coares geared towards Forensic science in the last couple years? I
"arrest" my case. (pun intended )
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Sauron
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You should get together with JohnWW and swap Trotskyite perspectives on world events. Sing The International and wax nostalgic for the Comintern. Sic
transit gloria marxi.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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chloric1
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Conspiracy theories aside, I just point to what I observe. I observe dwindling civil liberties coupled with a rapid expansion of forensicsand law
enforcement in general. Sauron, what else would be a reasonable explaination?
Fellow molecular manipulator
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