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joeflsts
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chloric1
Yes Joe I know I was just messing with Sauron. I hate living in paranoia and I hope the wiper AND wipees are WIPED off the face of the earth!
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Understand. We created the environment we live in. On this forum it is often posted that the government is out to get us - which I think they are -
but it is because we ask for it.
So we've learned that it might have been reported by the fire department that he had a bunch of chemicals in his house.
If they did not report it and he killed someone they are open to a lawsuit.
We know that the chemicals were harmless, but only after they were examined by "professionals". The problem is that a fireman doesn't have the
experience to determine what is a safe & non-safe lab chemical.
Ultimately it boils down to money and not power. Many on here want to believe that the government is out to get them - which they are. But most of
the time it isn't about power it is about emotion. The government is scared to death that they will get blamed in a court of law. Look at what
happened in New Orleans - a Hurricane hit, it took out most of the city services, people didn't flea as instructed and ultimately it was the
governments fault. It cost tax payers BILLIONS.
I don't think we have big brother - I think we have big lawyer in charge of this country.
Joe
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chromium
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It's not as much about money as about making society as safe as possible even if this costs a lot of freedoms. Perfect safety is impossible and every
addittional step towards it costs some additional freedoms. Safest possible life would probably be in kind of special prison where almost no action is
allowed but all biological needs are perfectly satisfied.
Most voters do not care of freedoms, they just want safety. This is why they think that they should have officials who even in case of unexpected
natural disasters have no right to make any errors and this is why our society wants that firemen (or chemical distributors) should report if they see
something that could be criminal. Governement wants to turn all officials (or better yet, all citizens) to unpayd spies who help to make controll
over all others. Most licences are dependent of ones agreement to report what he sees. This is presented as anticipating possible disasters and
building safer society - which most of voters will find desirable.
Politicians generally do not have point of views of their own (or if they have then only for himself, not for general public). They do anything which
can help them to be more popular - "For Safer Future" is slogan which always works.
@Bromic acid, I think its great that you sent letter. Even if this does not change slightest thing then it still is more usefull than this whole
thread (including my post).
[Edited on 13-8-2008 by chromium]
When all think alike, then no one is thinking. - Walter Lippmann
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len1
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| Quote: | | Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for Marlboro, stated, “I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would
consider to be a customary home occupation.” |
I didnt know there was a list "approved home occupations". Whats the point of having law books with really fine detail if they miss out on the really
coarse detail such as the existence of this list? Or perhaps theres no list, and its just in Pamela head? In that case would she like to share it
with the rest of the world because our legal system prides itself on being open and upfront. I suspect that wont happen, 'it doesnt look right' for a
free-loving society to have such a list. Instead, she'll find a proxy - something on the law books they can charge him with instead of what really
made them take this action - which is not in the law books. Kind of makes you respect dictatorships- at least they honest.
This whole thing is new of course - some younger readers might not know. In the 70s I had a chemistry lab much like a lot of people here, stocking
chemicals mainly. I had 500gms of I2, a bottle full of mercury, 500gms NaN3, to name a few. It never in the least occurred to me the police might be
interested in it (as they would be nowadays). I showed it to all my school friends. No one had the slightest thoughts of 'this is dangereous to the
community' come to mind. Because we all lived happily, and the crime rate was a lot lower. This is how things have changed. Nowadays my home lab
looks a lot different. I have none of the above, instead it looks like very well stocked shelves from the hardware store, garden fertilizers,
solvents and pottery supplies. The most interesting thing is that I am doing real chemistry with it. So while from a philosophical and moral
viewpoint Im outraged by the changes in society its a kind of blessing in reality.
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chloric1
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len1 you are absolutely right. I am now starting to see the brighter side of this social delema. Vulture made a simular point just a few days ago
but what thread I don't recall right now. I think at I should try pointing out the positive side of all these chemical restrictions. We all become
better chemists! Some of us may get more into glassworking as well. But with all of us having to make so many of our supplies, some trading will be
beneficial for sure. It natural for skilled tradesmen to speciallize so one person is going to be REALLY good with thermite, another making chlorate,
another modifying pyrex etc etc. So trading could help others deficient in certain areas obtain items for study.
Aside from that pointing out that having to make your own reagents makes you a better chemist will help the newbies tremendously and may inspire them
to study the sciences instead of turning away.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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12AX7
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chloric1
Aside from that pointing out that having to make your own reagents makes you a better chemist will help the newbies tremendously and may inspire them
to study the sciences instead of turning away. |
And in addition to that, many of the simple compounds that aren't so available make for interesting and simple preparations. Benzaldahyde, for
instance, is reasonably easy to prepare from appropriate reagents (some of which may themselves need to be prepared, such as oxidizers).
Tim
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Dr.3vil
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clean up your mess
"Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire
in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home. "
"Vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor, authorities said. "
I'll second the motion that the fire was the tip off. another point is that perhaps this could have been avoided if he had just been neat about
things. if it looks like a meth lab, and it smells like a meth lab....it probably is.
Keep chemicals in a closed closet or cabinet. keep your glassware stored, etc...hell go on Craig's list and get some metal or plastic storage bins or
what not that someone is throwing away. Point being if you lab looks like a workshop, then people will think it is a workshop. mix in some power tools
and scrap lumber and no one will give it a second thought.
DR.3vil
- Paper chemistry works the first time every time -
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franklyn
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Here is the ruling on a real case of confiscation. The common objection in both cases
seems to be one of what is deemed by authorities to be safe proper storage. In the
interest of public safety your personal rights aren't worth a damn.
http://www.nycourts.gov/library/queens/PDF_files/nyc-15409.p...
I had also posted this here _
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9137&a...
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BromicAcid
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Dr.3vil, 1500 is just a number and it tells us nothing of the scale of his setup. A medium sized box can easily contain 1500 vials all on its own.
And as for the 'vessels of chemicals all over the furniture and the floor' that just sounds like a blatant over exaggeration. Likely all over tables
and such, I know nothing more than you on the subject but even a fire fighter or a first responder will often feel the need to sensationalize
something.
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Dr.3vil
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BromicAcid
Dr.3vil, 1500 is just a number and it tells us nothing of the scale of his setup. A medium sized box can easily contain 1500 vials all on its own.
And as for the 'vessels of chemicals all over the furniture and the floor' that just sounds like a blatant over exaggeration. Likely all over tables
and such, I know nothing more than you on the subject but even a fire fighter or a first responder will often feel the need to sensationalize
something. |
a picture would be worth....say 1500 words? I understand where your coming from but please do not discount the notion that someone saw something that
was out of the ordinary. If there is any sensationalism here, it would be on the part of officials attempting to demonstrate that they are "looking
out for the public's well being".
DR.3vil
- Paper chemistry works the first time every time -
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Magpie
lab constructor
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| Quote: |
Keep chemicals in a closed closet or cabinet. keep your glassware stored, etc...hell go on Craig's list and get some metal or plastic storage bins or
what not that someone is throwing away. Point being if you lab looks like a workshop, then people will think it is a workshop. mix in some power tools
and scrap lumber and no one will give it a second thought.
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Dr. 3vil, this is very good advice based on an incident in my own lab:
I had the outside door to my lab open one day and was transferring 100g of PbO from a large plastic container to a bottle on my work bench. All of a
sudden a neighbor lady walked in that open door looking for my wife. Because all my reagents and glassware are in cabinets (which have no windows)
she saw nothing but my drill press, my work bench with lots of scrap lumber, the side of my aluminum hood, and a peg-board rack holding all my small
tools. She looked right at me and my whole lab and never said a thing. To her I'm sure she just saw an ordinary work shop.
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MagicJigPipe
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Pretty soon even "normal" workshops will be in danger. How can we be safe when people are allowed to have chainsaws, circular saws, nailguns and arc
welders!? Not to mention air compressors that can "propel SUPER DEADLY TOXIC DENSE projectiles at over 1000000 miles per hour"!!!!
Stupid people (majority in the US it seems) + vehicles is more of a threat to public safety than all home science hobbies combined, IMO. Let's get
rid of those.... Oh wait, Johnny Breadwinner needs that as a status symbol, nevermind.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Twospoons
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It really is just a witch hunt, when put into perspective next to 100,000 alcohol related deaths per annum, and 400,000 tobacco related deaths per
annum. And thats just in the USA. (stats from 10 second google search  )
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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len1
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I think some people might have missed the point that people too ignorant to know when a situation poses no public safety risk, will also be too
ignorant to recognise when it does.
This really is a loss for everyone: trampling of human rights, and no increased security
[Edited on 14-8-2008 by len1]
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The_Davster
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr.3vil
if it looks like a meth lab, and it smells like a meth lab....it probably is.
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No.
How many people here when starting their hobby only used consumer products? The same ones that meth task forces distribute to their employees on
simplistic pamphlets in picture format with "if you see these, you likely have a meth lab". Police officers are not scientists, they get the info
they are fed, and its relatively simple to match your toluene, HCl and lye to the picture they are given. Your OTC solvents, acids, and bases
suddenly become "omg meth lab to them".
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octave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by The_Davster
No.
How many people here when starting their hobby only used consumer products? The same ones that meth task forces distribute to their employees on
simplistic pamphlets in picture format with "if you see these, you likely have a meth lab". Police officers are not scientists, they get the info
they are fed, and its relatively simple to match your toluene, HCl and lye to the picture they are given. Your OTC solvents, acids, and bases
suddenly become "omg meth lab to them". |
This is why you should transfer every chemical to a new "scientifically labeled" container (E.G: buy a roll of unlabeled NFPA 704 labels and use them
religiously).A quote I made myself and keep dearly to my heart is "If you don't make drugs, don't make it look like you do".
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bigbigbeaker
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ruling on a real case of confiscation
When I read the ruling I wonder what this idiot guy was trying to prove. On May 18, 2 DERTA employees appear and say we have had an anonymous
complaint, may we have a look. The man says yes. Why didn't he say,"No. "Its my house. You can't come in without a court order based on an oath or
affirmation describing the places to be searched and the items to be seized." And they will go away. They might come back but in the meantime he
could clean the place up. Not him. He got more chemicals. He now has has 375 pounds of sodium hypochlorite, 10 lbs of H2SO4 and other things. Then
he tells them, "Please look in this other place that you didn't know about. I've got more neat chemicals there". So they find 228 gallons of sodium
hypochlorite, and alot of other stuff. So they tell him on June 1 he can't store the stuff in a residential area. They come back June 22 and he has
done nothing to make it look safer. Then on July 6 another phone call, so DERTA comes back and finds the same things plus now the guy has scored a ton
of HCL. Then they return in September and the guy now has Cu2SO4, algacide, Xylene, Alu sulfate, Na thoisulfate and a bunch of other chemicals. Now
his property gets seized. The moral of the story is that when a person has a completely flagrant disregard for the safety of his neighbors, when he
flaunts improper storage of large amounts of oxidizers, when he thumbs his nose in the face of investigators and does absolutely everything else wrong
that you could do, when each time they inspect the situation has gotten worse, then the person's chemicals can get seized. This ass deserves it. He
makes the home chemists life tough. And he is an honest to danger to the citizens of his neighborhood.
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: | | This is why you should transfer every chemical to a new "scientifically labeled" container (E.G: buy a roll of unlabeled NFPA 704 labels and use them
religiously).A quote I made myself and keep dearly to my heart is "If you don't make drugs, don't make it look like you do". |
This may help in certain limited situations but if the authorities search your lab, I don't think it'd be worth a hill of beans. It might even seem
worse to the super-ignorant. "He was running an advanced meth lab with reagents so professional and pure that it produces meth so pure that toddlers
will get high just looking at it".
But c'mon guys, all this oppression is FOR THE CHILDREN!
[Edited on 8-13-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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octave
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I have a question. Are these all lab raids and sudden attacks upon the home chemists a result of ignorance or recognition? Both have an extremely
puerile nature which most law enforcement is known for.However it seems(to me at least) that these sentinels of peace are trying to solidify "the
peoples" trust in them by using home chemistry as a scapegoat, as the common man knows nothing of chemistry except what is on the news:
methamphetamine labs being busted. So do y'all think the police are acting out of ignorance or are they acting under the guise of meth lab busters. I
believe it is truly a melange of both.
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12AX7
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This doesn't sound like it has anything to do with a meth lab, and there was no insinuation of that in the article.
Tim
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chloric1
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I myself believe it an issue of housekeeping and organization. The guy may be a chemist but having chems whereever does not look professional. And
the quantities he was storing If you have the money to buy chemicals by the
drum you have the money to store the bulk offsite.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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woelen
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No, this has nothing to do with meth-labs, nor with explosives or other adverse activities. But I truly believe that a good home chemist also should
have a tidy and clean working place and does not have tens or hundreds of bottles and jars filled with chemicals all over the place, on the ground, on
the furniture, etc. A real lab also does not have chemicals scattered all over the place.
If someone would come into my lab (and this happens at least every year or so, when someone is coming into the lab for service-work on the heating
system and sun-boiler, which are in the same room), they would not see any chemicals, except some small 100 ml bottles with working solutions and test
tubes which are on the work bench and a photographic enlarger. My stock of chemicals is behind doors and I only keep them in one place, not scattered
all over the house (also for my own health and safety, not just because of regulations).
That story of this guy who has chemicals by the drum and stores them in parked trailers is just plain stupid. This reminds me of a raid in NL, 2 years
ago. That guy had hundreds of kilos of KNO3, tens of kilos of KClO3, tens of kilos of metal powders, gallons of acids, tens of kilos of other
reductors and tens of liters of flammable solvents all crammed into a little wooden garden-house. He also had kilos of premixed compositions, sitting
on the shelves. This little garden house also was his working place, where he mixed pyrotechnic compositions. Usually I get very angry when I read
about raids (such as recently in Germany), but in this case, I think it was good. This little garden-house was a big bomb and only time knew when it
would set off...
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franklyn
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@ bigbigbeaker
A prosecutor will slant the facts to appear as dire as can be. Granted this
person could have been more discrete but the fact he was being open just
demonstrates he had nothing to hide. Explain why shelves stacked with
these pool chems in a store is alright but located elswhere they unexplainably
become a public threat. The man who this thread is about, " Mr. Deeb was
doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is
a violation of zoning laws " is the reason for the confiscation and has nothing
to do specifically with chemicals, none of which were deemed dangerous.
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by franklyn
@ bigbigbeaker
Explain why shelves stacked with
these pool chems in a store is alright but located elswhere they unexplainably
become a public threat. |
That is pretty easy. If you are running a business you have a registered place of business and the processes that you are running and the materials
that you hold are known to the fire service if they are hazardous.
The private storage of small quantities of petrol for lawn mowers etc is allowed where I live in Western Europe.
But you are not allowed to have a couple of 50 gallon drums full of petrol in the outhouse!
If he had been holding small quantities of chemicals and could have argued that they were related to a hobby such as photography then he would have
stood a chance.
Incidentally round here you are not allowed to run a business from your garage even if it only involves delivering newspapers etc without approval.
Obviously there is a bit of a grey area but if you start running a major enterprise from your home then the local snoopys will come to call.
[Edited on 15-8-2008 by ScienceSquirrel]
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MagicJigPipe
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We're missing the point here. The fact is that even if he was "neat and tidy" and didn't have massive amounts of chemicals he would probably still be
persecuted. Also, don't believe everything the media reports. It probably wasn't as bad as they are reporting.
Also, if you can't store 50 gallons of gasoline in your house then probably half the people in this country are breaking the law. The typical family
in my area has about 3 cars usually 2 of which are SUVs. That can amount to nearly 100 gallons of fuel if they are filled. Not to mention fuel for
the boat, ATV, jetski, etc... and gallons of paint thinner, engine cleaner, methanol, hard liquor, PROPANE. That's typical. The only reason this man
is in trouble is because he's different. I mean, they even said so. He doesn't have a "customary home occupation". They might as well just come out
and say that that's the reason they're after him.
In fact, I would be willing to bet that my parents have more flammable liquids/gases in their house than I do. However, who do you think is more
likely to be busted for it?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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chloric1
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Magic-You are right about there eagerness to discriminate. But I diagree that tidyness is missing the point as per woelen demonstrated with the dinky
garden shed. Some people are not responsible enough to have chemicals. I just wish we all did not have to suffer for it though
Fellow molecular manipulator
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