Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  
Author: Subject: Phthalic Anhydride
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
*****




Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-3-2008 at 07:07
Phthalic Anhydride


I've always been fascinated by dyes and indicators, and have been wanting to try synthesizing a little fluorescein for a long time. I already have some disodium fluorescein, but it seems like it would be a very interesting synthesis to try out--maybe by Woelen's method.

My question is this: <strong>Would it be illegal (Minnesota, USA) or even questionable to purchase 500 grams of phthalic anhydride</strong> for this purpose? I've always been wary of purchasing <em>any</em> organic compound, because of concerns over legality--I only have a few organics, and they're practically useless, like 500 g of lab grade 1-hexadecanol flake.

I've done hours of Google and forum searching, and have been unable to find anything on this. Am I just inept at searching? Where could I find more information about what compounds are on precursor/controlled substances/whatever lists in my area?

(I'd rather buy less than 500 g, say about 10-30, but the only quantity available on eBay is 500 g.)

Again, I'd like to apologize if this has been answered elsewhere. If necessary, please delete this thread. Thanks.

[edit]
Rephrased my question.

[Edited on 3/15/08 by bfesser]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Suspicious

[*] posted on 15-3-2008 at 08:05


Although your paranoia is well founded, I don't think phthalic anhydride is a big deal. I know it's not listed and I can't think of any common drug syntheses that it is used in. It can be used in a round about way to produce thionyl chloride which is considered a chemical weapons precursor but the synth is so convoluted that I doubt you will find any resistence.

There are several places on this forum where list 1 and 2 chemicals (US) are posted. Or you could just try searching google for list 1 and/or 2 precursors. I don't want to post them again here because, like I said, they're all over the place.

Another thing, you won't get very far in home chemistry without using any organics. I mean, ethanol and rubbing alcohol (isopropanol) are organic substances and you certainly don't have to worry about those.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
*****




Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-3-2008 at 08:19


I didn't take ethanol, isopropanol, or other ubiquitous organics into consideration when I made the statement 'few organics', but you are very right that one can't get far without organics. Thank you for your help, it's greatly appreciated.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
smuv
National Hazard
****




Posts: 842
Registered: 2-5-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: Jingoistic

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 13:36


It could be used to make phthalimide which can be used to make methaqualone (quaaludes) via a few different routes. Although I wouldn't worry about it.

Phthalic acid can be produced via oxidation of naphthalene (in either gas or liquid phase). Additionally xylene could be oxidized to mixed phthalic acids, it may not be too hard to separate these acids as only one isomer would dehydrate to the anhydride upon sublimation.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
pantone159
National Hazard
****




Posts: 589
Registered: 27-6-2006
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: desperate for shade

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 14:17


I would not be concerned about pthallic anhydride.

(Note: The SM spell-checker wanted me to change 'pthallic' to 'phallic' :))
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Sauron
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 14:23


O-xylene can be purchased pure. Mixed xylenes are cheaper but you pay one way, or you pay another way, as with all things.

Phthalimide in not listed and not watched. Anthranilic acid, which can be made from phthalimide as well as other ways, is, or was. (The other required component for methaqualone being o-toluidine.)

However since ludes ceased to be a problem, I am not at all sure anyone really cares anymore, they have other fish to fry.

And I hate to tell you, pantone, but there are two h's and only one l in phthalic

[Edited on 4-4-2008 by Sauron]




Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
pantone159
National Hazard
****




Posts: 589
Registered: 27-6-2006
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: desperate for shade

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 17:09


Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
And I hate to tell you, pantone, but there are two h's and only one l in phthalic


Oops. :) Hard to make fun of the spell checker now.

BTW - anthranilic acid would be very watched, it is DEA List I.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
smuv
National Hazard
****




Posts: 842
Registered: 2-5-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: Jingoistic

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 17:38


I agree with you Sauron, my post was in response to MJP saying that phthalic anhydride can't be used to make any common drug.

[Edited on 3-4-2008 by smuv]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Suspicious

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 18:56


"I agree with you Sauron, my post was in response to MJP saying that phthalic anhydride can't be used to make any common drug."

Are quaaludes common now?




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Sauron
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 19:13


But, pantone, the spellchecker apparently does not know how to spell phthalic, either.

It is trying for phallic - clearly has its mind in the gutter.




Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Suspicious

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 19:29


"It is trying for phallic - clearly has its mind in the gutter."

Oh my god! Hahaha!

Also, is phthalic acid used in any consumer products (not esters)?




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Sauron
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 21:01


Phthalic acid itself is not often encountered, phthalic anhydride is ubiquitous. A major intermediate in many industries.

AFAIK onl the esters are commonly enountered in consumer products, but consult Ullmann's and Kirk-Othmer for more information.




Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
smuv
National Hazard
****




Posts: 842
Registered: 2-5-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: Jingoistic

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 21:34


Quote:
Are quaaludes common now?



I knew that would be your response. Your are right, outside of africa quaaludes are rare these days. However, since the original poster seems paranoid about this, I think he ought to know. I'm not saying phthalic anhydride is suspicous but in order to properly inform the poster I think it is worth mentioning.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Sauron
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline

Mood: metastable

[*] posted on 3-4-2008 at 22:42


As Bill Rotsler used to say:

"Just because you are pArAnOiD, does not mean they aren't out to get you"

[Edited on 4-4-2008 by Sauron]




Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
12AX7
Post Harlot
*****




Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline

Mood: informative

[*] posted on 4-4-2008 at 12:30


1-nitrosyl-4-iodo-deuterobenzene

Para-NO-I-D :P

Tim




Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
pyrochem
Harmless
*




Posts: 21
Registered: 1-1-2006
Location: United States
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-9-2008 at 21:30


The esters of anthranilic acid are also DEA list 1, but methyl anthranilate aqueous solution (~26%, IIRC) can be purchased in garden stores as bird repellent. Expensive, but grapey!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
celindgren
Harmless
*




Posts: 2
Registered: 21-12-2007
Location: Oxford, MS
Member Is Offline

Mood: Great

[*] posted on 12-1-2009 at 00:05


Hi,

I would appreciate it very much if someone could assist me in finding Phthalic acid (benzene-1,2-dicarboxylic acid) in small containers which cost about $50-75. As I need it only for specific endeavours, I do not need very much. At present, the cheapest I can find is over $400.

Dr. Carl Edwin Lindgren, F.R.S.H. ;)
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
JohnWW
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-1-2009 at 00:34


That is clearly grossly exorbitant, because the ester dimethyl phthalate (DIMP) is a widely made and cheap industrial chemical, used particularly as a mosquito repellant. I wonder if you could buy some of that cheaply, and hydrolyze it.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
benzylchloride1
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 299
Registered: 16-3-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pushing the envelope of synthetic chemistry in one's basement

[*] posted on 7-2-2009 at 14:23


Alfa Aesar lists 1 Kg of phthalic anhydride for around $12.00. I bought some off of Ebay, but it was mainly phthalic anhydride. I ran a synthesis of o-benzoylbenzoic acid and got a yield of only 45%. The phthalic "anhydride" had a large melting point range and finally melted at about the temperature that phthalic acid melts at. I decided to purify it by distilling off the water and then distilling the anhydride. The distillation went well and I ended up with some nicely crystalline material with a very pungent odor. I was using a new short path distillation set up and when I tried to remove the distillation set up from the plastic clamps that held the apparatus together, I heard a cracking sound and there was a large jagged hole in the glass. The plastic clamp had melted to the glass and when I removed the apparatus, I broke my distillation set up. Next week I will have to fix it at the university. When I tried to remove the anhydride from the receiving flask by chipping the material out, I ended up cracking the flask. Beware of non anhydrous phthalic anhydride!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
*****




Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Enhanced

[*] posted on 7-2-2009 at 15:23


This is not on any DEA list in the USA. It can be made from mothballs (see Cumming here or at 4shared), but as written requires nearly an equal weight of HgSO4, and quite a lot of H2SO4.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 14-6-2010 at 13:20


I have purchased purported phthalic anhydride from two different sellers. In both cases the melting point (191C) indicated I had phthalic acid instead (phthalic anhydride mp =131.5C). I'm feeling quite ripped off and plan on calling these suppliers to complain and seek replacement or a refund.

I sublimed a small amount of the white flake sent from the first supplier into fine needles of phthalic anhydride which indeed had a mp of 131.5C. I would just shut up and sublime what I need except it is like collecting cobwebs and may take a lot of effort to collect just a few grams.

Has anyone else other than BZ1 had this problem? Any recommendations?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Suspicious

[*] posted on 20-6-2010 at 13:43


What was the melting range, Magpie?



"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
View user's profile View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 20-6-2010 at 16:32


Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe  
What was the melting range, Magpie?


There was a range for both suppliers' products but I didn't necessarily record it.

The mp I recorded for the 1st supplier is 194C.

For the 2nd supplier, I ran 3 mp's:

*powder sample from top of bottle: >140C (quit raising temp)
*crushed flake from deep in the bottle: partial melting & slumping at 131-132C
*crushed flake from deep in bottle: no slumping, mp = 190C.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 1-7-2010 at 12:10


I have received yet another bottle of phthalic anhydride. But its melting point is also 191C, indicating it is really phthalic acid. That's three different lots now all testing false.

I'm beginning to wonder if it is something I'm doing wrong. If possible I would like to hear from other members who have phthalic anhydride. What melting point do you get?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 4-7-2010 at 16:33


Having given up on being able to get phthalic anhydride (PAN) from suppliers (they send me phthalic acid [PA] instead), I have developed a reasonably facile procedure for converting PA to PAN:

In a hood or outside:
Place 25g of the PA in a 250 mL beaker supported by an iron ring attached to a ringstand. Place the beaker in an oil bath so that the PA is heated by the oil. Set the bath temperature at 200C. As the PA is heated above its mp (191C) PAN and water will vaporize. Some of the PAN will be lost to the atmosphere and some will accumulate as fine needles in a wool along the sides of the beaker. Gather the wool as it is generated and drop it back into the melt. Continue this until the melt has turned from milky white to clear. Then pour the melt into an evaporating dish and place in a dessicator to cool. When cooled scrape out the melt and grind to a powder with a mortar and pestle. Yield = 82%.


I have done this twice. Both times the mp of the resulting PAN was 131.5-132.0C, as it should be.

PA to PAN.jpg - 110kB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  

  Go To Top