menchaca
Hazard to Self
Posts: 80
Registered: 12-3-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A substitute to acetic anhidride for RDX manufacture
Hello again I´ve read in megalomanias´s a way to make RDX from ammonium nitrate and paraformaldehide but in this method acetic anhydride is needed,
i think as a dessicant; My question is: is possible to use concentred sulphuric acid instead of it?what other chemical could i ue instead of it? It is
almost impossible for me get it because is a very watched chemical here. Thanks !!!!!
|
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As I understand it, sulphuric acid will cause an RDX synth to fail.
|
|
|
froot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 347
Registered: 23-10-2003
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: refluxed
|
|
This link: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/21stCenturySurvival/message/23...)
At the end he says that acetic anhydride is used in the common HNO3/hexamine method to improve 'iffeciency'. If this is true, anybody know
the quantities, procedure and yeilds for this method?
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
|
|
palpy
Harmless
Posts: 19
Registered: 19-7-2003
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: none
|
|
in most nitrations where acetic anhydride is used in presence of HNO3, it's used to form acetyl nitrate - a strong nitrating agent
but I'm not a chemist so I can't tell you what it does in the E method (where it is obviously no HNO3)
H2SO4: RDX decomposes very quickly in presence of sulfuric acid. that's why it is not used in any of the methods
the methods involving HNO3 and Ac2O are the Bachmann's method and method KA. both use hexamine dinitrate, ammonium nitrate, Ac2O and concentrated
HNO3.
very interesting ways if you can get hold of Ac2O - little usage of conc. HNO3 and high yields 
forget about method E - low yield and dangerous without BF3
|
|
|
froot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 347
Registered: 23-10-2003
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: refluxed
|
|
Well 'click!!'. So that's what Ac2O is, I was wondering if it was Actinium oxide!! 'Umm dudes where do you buy that?'
Thanks man.
Do you have any idea on where I can find typical ratios? I've searched the place flat.
[Edited on 14-11-2003 by froot]
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
|
|
Mumbles
Hazard to Others
Posts: 436
Registered: 12-3-2003
Location: US
Member Is Offline
Mood: Procrastinating
|
|
There is a ratio on Megalomania's site. It doesn't reduce well, but its 260mL Ac2O to 105g Ammonium Nitrate to 38 grams Paraformaldehyde.
The Ac2O could be a bit hard to come by. Buying it at least. The synthesis isn't the easiest thing to do either, but not the hardest either.
Theres a thread about that here somewhere. It is basically forbidden by the Government for its use in drug manufacture mostly. Converts morphine
into heroin or something like that. You can use it to make asprin too. We did that in chem class one year. Having to use it to make asprin, and
just seeing all that Acetic Anhydride go to waste make me feel dirty for not being able to do something constructive with it.
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
I wonder if AcO method would work with low % HNO3 or act by just increasing the yeld of 100% HNO3...
Nevermore!
|
|
|
froot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 347
Registered: 23-10-2003
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: refluxed
|
|
Exactly what I'm asking about Nevermore. I'm familiar with the Meglomania's para/AN/Ac2O method, even tried it but with no real
success. After reading that site I mentioned above I've been searching for some kind of Ac2O/HNO3 method.
I don't think a lower conc. HNO3 with Ac2O would work, mainly because the water in the HNO3 would hydrate the Ac2O. You might end up with mainly
HDN.
The acetyl nitrate being a strong nitrating agent that was mentioned above sounds interesting.
I'm not sure what the equation for the reaction is but if H2O is a by-product then maybe Ac2O helps keep the reaction dehydrated forming acetic
acid as a by-product instead. I'm assuming that water is a no-no for good yields.
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
Well, if with the AcO is requested to use conc HNO3 anyway, i suppose is not worth the work of getting AcO, but just to distill off some 100% HNO3
then perform the synth with that, unless there is really a big difference with AcO!
Nevermore!
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Acetylnitrate is a VERY hazardous nitrating agent as it tends to explode violently for no reason.
If there's no way around it it should be made and consumed in situ.
I have a more detailed procedure if you're interested.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
froot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 347
Registered: 23-10-2003
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: refluxed
|
|
I can source acetic anhydride but it's very expensive. Something like an equivalent of $40 for 500ml. But if it does increase yields
substantially then it may be worth a try. I hate distilling HNO3 and if I do get absolute 100% it's pure luck. So good yields to me is crucial.
Vulture I'm very interested.
With regards to a substitute for Ac2O I suppose we can brainstorm all sorts of chemicals. Like is there such a thing as citric acid anhydride?? Would
citric nitrate be a good nitrating agent?
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
|
|
palpy
Harmless
Posts: 19
Registered: 19-7-2003
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: none
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by vulture
Acetylnitrate is a VERY hazardous nitrating agent as it tends to explode violently for no reason.
|
sure it's not stable at all, but I think no one here ever thought about separating it and storing for
further use...
it's just that sort of thing that appears in the middle of the equations for a more complicated reaction
BTW the mix of 100% HNO3 and acetic anhydride was also used in aerial bombs in WW2...
but this shouldn't be a problem unless you like putting blasting caps in the reaction vessel
and don't heat it to high temperatures as it is (Ac2O is flammable and if you put 2 and 2 together...)
|
|
|
KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
Hazard to Others
Posts: 254
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Iran (pseudoislamic dictatorship of)
Member Is Offline
Mood: exuviating!
|
|
<blockquote>quote:<hr>and don't heat it to high temperatures as it is (Ac2O is flammable and if you put 2 and 2
together...)<hr></blockquote>
also acetyl nitrate detonates above 55°C !
benzoyl nitrate has (rarely) been used as a nitrating agent.
|
|
|
Hermes_Trismegistus
National Hazard
Posts: 602
Registered: 27-11-2003
Location: Greece, Ancient
Member Is Offline
Mood: conformation:ga
|
|
""also acetyl nitrate detonates above 55°C ! ""
Excuse stupidity pls.
IT JUST DETONATES?!?!
NOT DDF (DEFLAGRATE TO DETONATE)???
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
|
|
|
KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
Hazard to Others
Posts: 254
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Iran (pseudoislamic dictatorship of)
Member Is Offline
Mood: exuviating!
|
|
it obviously makes DDT (deflagration to detonation transition)
|
|
|
froot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 347
Registered: 23-10-2003
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: refluxed
|
|
powder drain cleaner
Today at the hardware I found a rather strange chemical. On the one side it says '98% concentrated sulfiric acid' - a powder??
On the other it says it's amido sulfonic acid
I think that when mixed with water it forms H2SO4.
Maybe not for RDX but could this be an interesting water scavenger in nitration reactions?
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
|
|
guaguanco
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 26-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: heterocyclic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by froot
With regards to a substitute for Ac2O I suppose we can brainstorm all sorts of chemicals. Like is there such a thing as citric acid anhydride?? Would
citric nitrate be a good nitrating agent? |
1) No.
2) Citric acid is a fairly fragile molecule, and would be ripped apart by nitric acid.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
