metalresearcher
National Hazard
Posts: 758
Registered: 7-9-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Reactive
|
|
Plutonium pill as laptop battery ?
The New Horizons approached Pluto today, due to its remoteness, solar panels won't work (flux = 1W/m2 while 1000W/m2 on Earth), so an RTG with PuO2
fuel is used.
Why not a small verston of such a power source as a laptop power supply ?
This can be not larger than a medication pill.
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
How much Plutonium do you want leaking into ground water from discarded electronics at your local land fill?
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
There might be an issue with the possession of plutonium, which as far as I know, is pretty much illegal wherever you happen to reside.
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
What is the average power consumption of a laptop? Pu238 radiates a whopping 540W/kg, but once you factor in the 5% efficiency of an RTG you're down
to 27W/kg Pu.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
No off switch.
|
|
|
froot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 347
Registered: 23-10-2003
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: refluxed
|
|
The RTG on Curiosity delivers 800watts for 10 years and that will dwarf a laptop. You also need to maintain a decent thermal gradient between the
isotope and the exterior for it to work properly.
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
|
|
phlogiston
International Hazard
Posts: 1379
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
It is undesirable to give the public access to macroscopic amounts of such extremely radioactive substances.
However, Pu238 based RTGs have been used in pacemakers. Excellent applications, since it is not easily accessible for extraction, pacemakers need only
very little power and replacing the battery is very invasive, so you want a power source that lasts for a long time.
Another terrestrial application has been to power lighthouses along the north coast of Russia, but they have been raided for their metal content by
thieves that seems to be largely unaware of the extreme danger of stripping the shielding of a large block of extremely radioactive material. It
landed several people in hospitals.
[Edited on 14-7-2015 by phlogiston]
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
RTGs are fascinating, and while they will never power laptops they do have real life applications like pacemakers.
Personally I'd kill for an ounce or two of Pu238. It would make for the coolest candle ever, a chunk of Pu contained in glass glowing read from it's
own decay heat.
[Edited on 14-7-15 by Fulmen]
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
Oscilllator
National Hazard
Posts: 659
Registered: 8-10-2012
Location: The aqueous layer
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Everybody else here is making comments about how such a device would never exist, which I think is silly. Here are some numbers that I came up with
relatively quickly:
One the laptop I am writing this on the battery is rated for 10.5V/3.8A, or 39.9 watts. Because I don't use this laptop at maximum capacity all the
time, let's drop that down to 20 watts and have a small battery to act as a buffer for peak usage (remember that the RTG can charge 24/7).
Now looking at the wikipedia page for RTG's is seems the best one available is the GPHS-RTG(used on the new horizons probe  ) that delivers 5.4 watts/kg. Based on this, the RTG would have to weigh 3.7kg, or 3.5
times the total weight of my laptop. Not very practical.
But plutonium actually produces 564 watts/kg of heat energy. Suppose were able to make a generator that operated at 50% efficiency, because we live in
an atmosphere or something. That means that 35g of plutonium would be needed. Taking into account the actual mass of the generator, I think that
should be rounded up to 100g. That seems like a reasonable weight to me, but it ultimately is a pie in the sky number.
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
The RTGs deliver 5.4W/kg at 5-10% efficiency, so at 50% it would still be only 50-100W/kg (assuming it scales linearly). Both assumptions are
improbable at best.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
metalresearcher
National Hazard
Posts: 758
Registered: 7-9-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Reactive
|
|
But an RTG to charge only a laptop ?
|
|
|
Praxichys
International Hazard
Posts: 1063
Registered: 31-7-2013
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Coprecipitated
|
|
The risk of someone building a "dirty bomb" will disallow consumer applications of RTGs, unfortunately.
There would also be a huge supply issue. At peak production, all of our breeder reactors could only make a few kg per year.
|
|
|
CRUSTY
Hazard to Others
Posts: 139
Registered: 5-6-2016
Location: Nearby
Member Is Offline
Mood: High-Order
|
|
Using plutonium in any sort of domestic application that can be opened, broken, etc. is incredibly impractical for the obvious reason of "misuse" of
the radioisotope, but if we're talking theory here, I think a thermophotovoltaic cell would do better for this application. According to Wikipedia,
around 20% efficiency has been achieved fairly consistency, but some 30+% cells have been theorized.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
Strontium 90 would be a better isotope for a consumer RTG than plutonium 238 would be. It decays quite a bit faster, with a half-life of 20-some
years, but that's a lot better than the average useful life of a typical battery, and it would never need charging. It's also a really common isotope
found in waste from nuclear reactors, so there's more of it available than there's use for, unlike plutonium 238, which we seem to have run out of.
It's also used in a few civilian applications, and was used extensively by the USSR for powering remote weather stations and things like that.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  | | Strontium 90 would be a better isotope for a consumer RTG than plutonium 238 would be. It decays quite a bit faster, with a half-life of 20-some
years, but that's a lot better than the average useful life of a typical battery, and it would never need charging. It's also a really common isotope
found in waste from nuclear reactors, so there's more of it available than there's use for, unlike plutonium 238, which we seem to have run out of.
It's also used in a few civilian applications, and was used extensively by the USSR for powering remote weather stations and things like that.
|
And it is exceptionally dangerous, so it's the last thing we should distribute into the environment.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
I only said it would be better than plutonium, not that it would be problem-free. Plutonium 238 is even more dangerous, due to its heavy metal
toxicity and long, complicated decay chain, but because there isn't really any of it left on Earth, there aren't all these alarmist articles on the
web about how dangerous it is. Due to the fact that strontium 90 is quite common in nuclear waste, and some has escaped into the environment as a
result of Chernobyl and Fukushima, there are plenty of alarmist articles about that particular radioisotope. It's really a matter of selection bias.
But if the problems could be solved by engineering, it would be better to use an isotope that's currently a waste product, rather than one that we
have essentially none of, no?
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
Cezium
Harmless
Posts: 39
Registered: 5-1-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sr-90 is not as poisonous as Pu, it is similar to biogenous Ca so it has high affinity to bone metabolism, it used to be used as bone metastasis
treatment, now is obsolete due to various side effects (mainly it messes with blood) and Sm-153 is in use instead. In long run it will accumulate in
body and replace Ca with all the consequences, so not a good idea.
Electricity from radionuclides was viable option before advanced Lithium batteries in ICDs (in body defibrillator) where there is capacitor that can
accumulate continuous mikroAmps from source. In laptop there will be needed hundreds of curies for tens watts produced. Such an activity is no go for
public use. Only viable option will be use in remote areas (arctic, space) where you can trace source and collect it back at the end of the life for
proper disposal. But where is sun there is solar panels preferred so nor this is way to go. Also this laptop will have several kilograms in additional
weight due to cooling and stuff.
Activity is not for public use, every kid with hammer will dissect your pill no matter how good you think you secure it. The closest to the public
that you can get with activity is to build a community reactors one for small town (up to 100000 inhabitants), approx size of shipping container
buried deep in the ground running on may be thorium as an alternative to renewable energy.
[Edited on 10-10-2017 by Cezium]
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
Sr-90 has the interesting property of being solely a beta emitter though, meaning it could potentially be used in a betavoltaic device, which is much more efficient than an RTG. I agree that we have a lot of better options available though, especially fuel
cells and the like, which could be refilled like a butane lighter rather than plugging it in.
Why would the reactor have to be deep underground? Seems like that'd make it easier to contaminate the water, and harder to access if anything did go
wrong. Not to mention the coolant issue. Personally, I like the idea of portable nuclear rectors, since it'd allow us to inhabit really cold places
much more easily. Like Antarctica, or Mars, or the moons of Jupiter and Saturn.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
Cezium
Harmless
Posts: 39
Registered: 5-1-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Deep underground is not needed necessarily but until mankind is stupid enough to make more wars and less love, burying underground will protect
against blast. Ideally there will be concrete bed-nest with entrance which will allow access for regular maintenance and once in a decades replacing
whole container.
Cooling wouldn't be an issue, mainly can heat/cool households through heat exchanger and with less excess heat dissipated with same principle as in
ground source heat pump as this will be especially usefull in areas where isn't access to continuous water stream.
Not to mention if people coudn't see reactor they wouldn't afraid so much and also wouldn't try to break in.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
I know that a lot of the new designs for reactors are fail-safe, so that if the core becomes critical, it melts through a plug underneath it and
empties into a shallow concrete pan. By spreading the fuel out like that, it's no longer at critical mass, and so it stops reacting. With molten
salt reactors, the fuel is actually supposed to be in liquid form, and so it can just drain out of the reactor area to slow it down, then pumped back
in when it's needed.
You really couldn't use a ground-source heat pump to cool a nuclear reactor though. Soil is too good of an insulator, and eventually the soil around
the heat exchangers would get too hot to accept any more heat. IIRC, they're only really recommended for areas with a high water table, and even
then, for just one house, they'll often cause problems with the neighbors having warm tap water.
[Edited on 10/10/17 by Melgar]
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
Cezium
Harmless
Posts: 39
Registered: 5-1-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I admit that ground-source heat pump wouldn’t be the best solution, but I mean it as kind of buffer, main cooling will be thru heat exchanger for
households.
This is meant to be just free time theory, all kinds of improvements will be needed before real realization. I just thought that in the future it
would be nice to have decentralized grid of small reactors (for various reasons).
Over all take home message was that radionuclides for general public usage is not a good idea.
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Cezium | I admit that ground-source heat pump wouldn’t be the best solution, but I mean it as kind of buffer, main cooling will be thru heat exchanger for
households.
This is meant to be just free time theory, all kinds of improvements will be needed before real realization. I just thought that in the future it
would be nice to have decentralized grid of small reactors (for various reasons).
Over all take home message was that radionuclides for general public usage is not a good idea. |
Strontium 90 has a few niche commercial uses already though. I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea to use it to power a laptop, but I think that
now that we understand the dangers of radioactive isotopes much better, we should be researching potential new uses for them.
The radioisotopes that are in use now include the americium 241 in smoke detectors, and the strontium 90 that's used in devices that can test airplane
wings for ice buildup and metal for internal fractures. These uses were all discovered before Chernobyl happened, which is about when the public
suddenly changed their minds about how dangerous radioactivity was. I doubt there has been any significant research since then, aside from its use in
medicine. But they never forced industry to stop using the radioisotopes that they'd already been safely using for years, and so a lot of them are
actually still in widespread use.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
Texium
|
Thread Moved
27-11-2023 at 11:37 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
