zephler1
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 16-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Chlorates and Perchlorates - for what??
There are a ton of posts in this section on the electrolytic production of chlorates and perchlorates, but I have to ask, what is the interest in
these materials? I can only find their use for things like explosives - are all of these in depth, extensive experimentation's and lengthy posts just
for people making their own explosives? Not that there is anything wrong with that, I mean everyone has hobbies, I am just amazed by all of the posts
and work done if the only end use of this stuff is to make stuff go boom? I don't mean to insult anyone by this post, I am just curious. 
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
That's kind of how I see the entire energetic materials thread. It kind of bores me, to be honest. I do really love potassium chlorate for how the
crystals look and feel, though. It's fun to do demonstrations with, as well.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by zephler1  | | There are a ton of posts in this section on the electrolytic production of chlorates and perchlorates, but I have to ask, what is the interest in
these materials? I can only find their use for things like explosives - are all of these in depth, extensive experimentation's and lengthy posts just
for people making their own explosives? Not that there is anything wrong with that, I mean everyone has hobbies, I am just amazed by all of the posts
and work done if the only end use of this stuff is to make stuff go boom? I don't mean to insult anyone by this post, I am just curious. |
Both are strong oxidisers, hence their applications in explosives and rocket propellants.
But they also find uses in non-aqueous chemistry, as oxidisers. KClO3 is used industrially in some aluminothermic reductions as a heat booster via:
KClO<sub>3</sub> + 2 Al === > KCl + Al<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub> (very exothermic)
Sodium chlorate was once a widely used weed killer, now largely phased out.
[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
byko3y
National Hazard
Posts: 721
Registered: 16-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: dooM
|
|
I need a chlorite to selectively oxidize aldehyde to carboxylic acid. As you may know, the only viable way to make chlorite is by decomposing a
chlorate to chlorine dioxide.
Chlorates and bromates are used to perform halogenation on deactivated aromatics, like nitrobenzene http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00323a039 , as well as a regular halogenation to avoid dangerous chlorine and bromine vapours.
Perchlorates are good electrolytes, and perchloric acid has unique catalytic properties: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo900614s and http://www.organic-chemistry.org/abstracts/lit1/392.shtm
|
|
|
cyanureeves
National Hazard
Posts: 744
Registered: 29-8-2010
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
platinum recovery also uses chlorates.
|
|
|
phlogiston
International Hazard
Posts: 1379
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
They are also needed especially for making interesting and colorful fireworks (as well as for loud reports). Everyone interested in making fireworks
is going to want to acquire some of these materials at some point. Their extreme usefulness in this area outweighs the efforts of preparing it for
quite a few people apparently.
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
|
|
Hellafunt
Hazard to Self
Posts: 65
Registered: 2-12-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
speaking as somebody with very little experience and new to the hobby, i was interested in these chemicals for several reasons. i wanted to learn some
simple electronics, and i had limited access to chemicals. i was able to build a bench power supply, learn how to solder, and ended up with both
potassium chlorate and sodium chlorate starting with some free ice melter from craigslist and some table salt, respectively.
and, it was really fun blowing some shit up after the synthesis!
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
While both chlorates and perchlorates can be used for high explosives, their real application is within pyrotechnics. Both are useful for pretty much
any pyrotechnic application, from rockets and colored stars to burst and explosive devices. And you can spend a LOT of chemicals in this field, think
pounds rather than grams. That makes a good supply quite useful for many.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
jock88
National Hazard
Posts: 505
Registered: 13-12-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The fact that you can make an explosive out of salt and water.............
|
|
|
papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
Even that I don't agree that energetic materials are not interesting to explore and are just for those who like "everything to go boom", I also join
to the question and want ask someone knowledgeable to enumerate uses of potassium chlorate, especially things useful to amateur chemists - anything
interesting I can do with it?
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6320
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Screaming gummi bears?
I think of chlorates as solid oxygen for all practical purposes. Good oxidiser. A bit of a bulldozer to crack a nut in most applications. But good to
have on hand. And it has this over permanganates: KClO3 is colourless which is nice in aqueous chemistry.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
In aqueous chemistry chlorates and perchlorates are rather sluggish oxidisers, compared to permanganates, dichromates, nitric acid or hypochlorites
though.
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3246
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
Perchloric acid which is just a spectacular acid, distill from perchlorates and sulfric acid.
Once you make perchloric acid, dehydrate further to dichlorine heptoxide 
Read up on oxygen candles, fun project
Make some silver perchlorate and watch how easily it dissolve in benzene, I geek out every time.
Make some inorganic complexes, you will be surprised how many are isolated as perchlorate salts.
Make ferrates (or other high-oxidation state compounds) by fusing perchlorates with potassium hydroxide and your target metal in a lower
oxidation state, wicked good oxidizing mixture.
There are so many uses for perchlorates, to think of them only in relation to energetic materials is certainly stereotyping.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid | Make ferrates (or other high-oxidation state compounds) by fusing perchlorates with potassium hydroxide and your target metal in a lower oxidation
state, wicked good oxidizing mixture.
|
Any other specific examples, other than Fe(VI), you know to work?
|
|
|
gdflp
Super Moderator
Posts: 1320
Registered: 14-2-2014
Location: NY, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Staring at code
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid | Make ferrates (or other high-oxidation state compounds) by fusing perchlorates with potassium hydroxide and your target metal in a lower oxidation
state, wicked good oxidizing mixture.
|
Any other specific examples, other than Fe(VI), you know to work? |
Chromium(III) oxide can be oxidized to potassium chromate, although this works just as well using nitrate.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by gdflp | | Chromium(III) oxide can be oxidized to potassium chromate, although this works just as well using nitrate. |
I've done it myself (with KClO<sub>3</sub> but Cr(+6) is hardly exotic,
now is it? I certainly wouldn't waste on perchlorate on that.
[Edited on 26-4-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
gdflp
Super Moderator
Posts: 1320
Registered: 14-2-2014
Location: NY, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Staring at code
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
I've done it myself (with KClO<sub>3</sub> but Cr(+6) is hardly exotic,
now is it? I certainly wouldn't waste on perchlorate on that.
|
Sorry, I thought Bromic mentioned chlorate instead of perchlorate. I've done small scale experiments with both chlorate and nitrate(The last one with
nitrate resulted in a minor explosion that left my air-charcoal furnace a mixed yellow green color) You didn't say anything about producing exotic
salts though
On topic with the thread, I have an old book about the chemistry of tellurium which mentions that the basic perchlorate can be synthesized by the
action of perchloric acid on TeO2, but it doesn't mention any particular uses.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by gdflp | You didn't say anything about producing exotic salts though
On topic with the thread, I have an old book about the chemistry of tellurium which mentions that the basic perchlorate can be synthesized by the
action of perchloric acid on TeO2, but it doesn't mention any particular uses. |
No, I didn't mention 'exotic', correct. I thought it was kind of implied. Things like Cu(+3) I'm interested in. Ag(+2).
|
|
|
Hellafunt
Hazard to Self
Posts: 65
Registered: 2-12-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
this exactly. i was and still am just amazed that salt and a computer power supply i pulled from the trash dumpster behind my apartment led to
incredibly powerful flames the NaClO3 made with some sugar. and, later, when i made thermite for the first time, i made the rust for the thermite with
the same power supply.
speaking as a noob, i think this phenomenom of transforming something quotidian into something exotic is what attracted me to hobby chemistry,
just like it is what sparked my interest in my profession, bread baking.
[Edited on 26-4-2015 by Hellafunt]
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3246
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
Bismuthate is a little on the rare side and that can also be done in the same manner. Or ruthenates if you're into that sort of thing. If you look
through Mellor's works it seems like that was the method of choice for making high oxidation state compounds, although if they really exist or not is
another question. For example, Volume 15 regarding nickel:
| Quote: | | In 1869, E. Dufau reported the formation of a salt of nickel dioxide, or nickel peroxide, NiO<sub>2</sub>, namely, barium dipernickelite,
BaO*2NiO<sub>2</sub>. H. Schulze observed that when nickel chloride, bromide, or iodide is dropped into molten potassium chlorate,
oxidation takes place and a mixture of nickel dioxide and monoxide is formed... |
But what can be found on NiO<sub>2</sub> in recent literature? They may have made the genuine compound or something different, I always
think back to all the claims of making perbromates prior to inorganic chemists admitting defeat just before someone gave fluorine a try.
There are lots of molten salt reactions that can be done using chlorates and perchlorates but alas, in recent years, I feel mainstream chemistry has
moved away from those sorts of methods except for a select few.
[Edited on 4/26/2015 by BromicAcid]
|
|
|
cyanureeves
National Hazard
Posts: 744
Registered: 29-8-2010
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
i think exactly as jock88 and Hellafunt on this matter enough that i had several pounds of the stuff.i soaked towels in chlorate and water mix then
dried them and lit them like gun powder.the neighbors would see the smoke but would also smell the sweet sugar and just never could figure anything
out.one time i mixed so many chemicals together with a chlorate mix by product of a failed experimet and threw it all away in the dumpster.one of the
last things i added to the mix was also a sulfuric acid mix by product and noticed the dumpster smoking.i was watching t.v. and happened to look out
the window and ran outside and jumped into the dumpster and scoped out globs of the potion.i wonder if anyone saw me hose down the alley?
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
The per/chlorate ion(s) is/are rarely insoluble, making it/them useful in aqueous transition metal chemistry.
My main use for chlorate (potassium) is an easy oxygen source, mix 1 part manganese dioxide with 8-10 parts K-chlorate and slowly heat it. The
catalyst can be filtered out and the KCl reused. Containing 1.5 moles of avalible oxygen per mole of chlorate, and with yeilds around 95%, it's the
cheapest source for me. Only cost is time since I don't pay the electric.
|
|
|
gatosgr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 237
Registered: 7-4-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
what do you use the oxygen for?
|
|
|
Morkva
Harmless
Posts: 17
Registered: 6-11-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
They use to believe Neodymium Dioxide existed, formed by pyrolysis of oxalate in air, but it was an illusion. Rb3NdF7 does exist however, AND, I
looked up a old German paper about the presence of NdO2 provided it was in the company of Zr or Ce oxide or some kind of diluent like that, and there
might have been a strontium salt of some kind? SrNdO3? I do not recall. Some kind of salt. Chlorate fusion might be worth a try.
[Edited on 16-5-2015 by Morkva]
http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/falcarinol.html
“Science is the ultimate pornography, analytic activity whose main aim is to isolate objects or events from their contexts in time and space. This
obsession with the specific activity of quantified functions is what science shares with pornography.”
- J.G. Ballard, The Atrocity Exhibition
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
