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Etaoin Shrdlu
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No worries, I mistake people's arguments all the time.
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Fulmen
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BTW Zombie: The contradictions that Einstein talks of in your post are tied to the mental models. The mathematical models are exact, but the way we
translates them into mental models that fit into our senses and view of reality can be fairly flexible. Any mental models that produce the same math
are equally valid, they are simply complimentary views. Take light being described as both a particle and a wave. But that doesn't mean it's a wave
like we see on the ocean or a particle like a shiny marble. It's not meant THAT literal. It's just that it can be described mathematically in the same
way you would describe a simple particle or wave. And concepts that are fundamentally incompatible in our macroscopic world might not be that on a
more fundamental level. This makes the mental models imperfect, but as long as they use the same math you can't really tell which one is "right".
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Chemosynthesis
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Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  | | Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu |
Because it allows for mass teleportation and precognition, obviously. [....] And the best part is, if I throw a baseball at you in a pitch
black vacuum-filled room, then Zombie steps into the trajectory, it will miraculously hit him instead, even though at the moment I threw the
baseball the mass teleportation should have been programmed for your position. Matter can predict future events, man! It all makes so much sense! Just
wait until we figure out how to harness it!
(The photon argument makes exactly this much sense.) |
Wouldn't you be surprised if the ball went thru me? Who's to say whether I was there or not.
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This is exactly my problem with some concepts of electron tunneling. There is potentially a big problem with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in
truly determining that an electron tunneled through an energy barrier when certainty of measurement of electron position and velocity (thus direction)
at any one point are negatively correlated. How certain are you really of the barrier's 'height' or the electron's position at any one point in time?
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Zombie
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That's my point.
To whatever light really is, the mechanism, I might not be in the path. There are many forms of energy that simply do not "see us".
Light is obviously not one of these forms but perhaps the mechanism that carries light is.
That opens the door to either the light mechanism (carrier /energy) is blocked by an abject or the matter of light itself is.
In either case (blocked) it implies matter.
Or if it is not blocked completely then it must be energy, and the swinging ball / pendulum effect could be part of it.
Or as Mr. Aga suggests there could be so many more planes of existence involved that the answer is literally swimming away from sight.
[Edited on 3-12-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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aga
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Neither are.
Light is a perceived lack of Mass, as the particle is expressing more in the X Y or Z as a function of the Time than in the Gravitic.
Slow it down (contain it's XYZ nd Time expression possibilities somehow) and it will demonstrate more in the Gravitic, Electric or Magnetic : it has
no other option, no other way to continue to exist with it's current energy.
With the 1 super-excited particle model, you'd have already altered it's state, seeing as you formed the apparatus (from it) to cause the containment,
thereby pre-ordaining the 'containment'.
This is the stuff that sends you mad.
Beer is the only antidote.
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aga
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As an aside, with No 'particle' discovering a dimension in which to express, that particular dimension simple does not exist.
Matter does not exist in a space-time 'framework' where things can Be in a linearly Time fixed reality.
They are one in the same thing : What stuff needs describes a dimension in which to Be, and in that dimension, it Is.
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis | | Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | | Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu |
Because it allows for mass teleportation and precognition, obviously. [....] And the best part is, if I throw a baseball at you in a pitch
black vacuum-filled room, then Zombie steps into the trajectory, it will miraculously hit him instead, even though at the moment I threw the
baseball the mass teleportation should have been programmed for your position. Matter can predict future events, man! It all makes so much sense! Just
wait until we figure out how to harness it!
(The photon argument makes exactly this much sense.) |
Wouldn't you be surprised if the ball went thru me? Who's to say whether I was there or not.
|
This is exactly my problem with some concepts of electron tunneling. There is potentially a big problem with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in
truly determining that an electron tunneled through an energy barrier when certainty of measurement of electron position and velocity (thus direction)
at any one point are negatively correlated. How certain are you really of the barrier's 'height' or the electron's position at any one point in time?
|
A lot less sure than I am of the position of macroscale objects, certainly. Isn't that why electron tunneling happens, because on the quantum scale,
probabilistic effects become relevant? (Disclaimer: I know nearly nothing about electron tunneling.)
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | That opens the door to either the light mechanism (carrier /energy) is blocked by an abject or the matter of light itself is.
In either case (blocked) it implies matter.
Or if it is not blocked completely then it must be energy, and the swinging ball / pendulum effect could be part of it. |
Proposing a light carrier strays well away from the premise of the article though, leaving us with the original problem of whether light is "carried"
by a wave or a particle. From what I can tell, the hypothesis is that it's carried by neither, simply jumps from one atom to another with no
intermediate.
I truly don't understand the "what if Zombie's not really in the way" question. In the case of trying to block a light beam, if you put an object in
the way the light hits that object, if you don't do that it doesn't hit that object. Assuming that "light" is long-distance, time-delayed
teleportation of energy with no actual existence between objects, this assumes foreknowledge in that transferred energy (or in the objects) of how the
universe is going to look in half a microsecond, ten seconds, one light year, however long it takes to "travel."
Maybe there's a moment where the light/baseball tunnels through him, but I'm really only interested in the many, many cases where it doesn't, because
those are the cases where the article's proposal falls apart.
Another point against this idea is the fact that light paths are bent by gravity. How does one affect something midway that doesn't exist except at
its origin and destination?
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Zombie
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I agree 100% that you can not influence something that does not exist, (in theory or practice).
The proposal that light "jumps for one atom to the next" in my opinion is a fair statement. (pendulum / ball thing). It could follow that the particle
that is blocked, is so active that it acts like a ricocheting bullet.
We all see the effect. A person hit with a focused light will reflect some, absorb some, and disburse some. Remove the person, and the room is again
well lit.
Sooo take smoke into the equation.
You can see the beam of light from source to target. Is there REALLY a mass of particles or is it a residual effect. Is the smoke now holding left
over energy?
Lasers... Another monkey wrench. Are they emitting a mass of focused particles or are they applying / reflecting energy en-mass to the air molecules.
It's an interesting topic for sure.
You can make arguments for all aspects.
Fire a laser beam at 90* from the head of a stream of light...
Will that laser beam travel in a straight line, curve, become a "wall of light?
This goes back to the application of time. In reality I believe time is the only unit of measure.
It takes a specific amount of time to add 10 kilos of sugar to a scale.
It takes time to measure a distance.
It takes time for a sound wave to be measured.
So apply what we know of time to light emissions. As was already stated we don't know enough about either to relate to anything reasonable (by our
standards).
It's a cool topic.
[Edited on 3-13-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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neptunium
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according to Einstein mass deform space in which light travel . gravity does not bent light per say , rather light follow the contour of space being
bent by the presence of matter.
just as black holes bent spacetime to a point so stretched nothing can escape ! not even spacetime itself (Kip Thorne Black Holes and time wraps 1994)
I see a few silly questions or i did not understand his point..i`ll read it again when i have a minute.
On the nature of light itself i agree it is quite perplexing and much is still not fully understood ... much like what is matter made of ? what are
quarks made of ? and of course what is time ? beyond fascinating questions indeed !
[Edited on 13-3-2015 by neptunium]
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