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budullewraagh
Hazard to Others
Posts: 168
Registered: 1-8-2004
Location: new york
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aliphatic
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if you want to do the fluorine thing, go for it. personally i find fluorine to be far more dangerous than phosgene, but hey that's me. if you
do the fluorine thing, good luck, because any mistakes and you're dead
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Reverend Necroticus Rex
Hazard to Others
Posts: 196
Registered: 15-6-2004
Location: Right behind you.......
Member Is Offline
Mood: Poisonous
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I tend to draw the line at really volatile toxins, such as HCN, and gaseous phosphines.
I have often contemplated fluorine, I would quite like actually, to have a crack at it, but it would have to be done with the utmost care.
Its the unstable primary explosives I don't much care for, I have no real interest in pyro as a hobby, occasionally perhaps, but its just not my
sort of thing.
The sun is shining on a brand new day
Blackened corpses burn where they were slain
Self-flagellation prompts him to confess, Bless me father, for I made this mess.
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Kman100
Harmless
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-1-2005
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Where to draw the line? I'd have to say building a nuclear bomb. 
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YT2095
International Hazard
Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
Member Is Offline
Mood: within Nominal Parameters
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I`ve been searching/reading up on HCN all morning and found this.
I have an amount of NaCN coming soon, as for limits, I have to confess this chem is right up to the wire for me, I`m scared of it a little now,
because I don`t know all I feel I need to know about this chem just yet, so it will stay safely locked away until I learn more.
Organic toxins are a no no for me with the exception of Glyphosate and X-Methrins.
unstable explosives in any quantity are also out the question.
large unprotected/sheilded amounts of Radioactive materials are also to avoid, although alpha, beta don`t worry me too much, Neutrons and Gamma would
require better equipment than I have.
Carcinogens aren`t typically a problem for me, as most all that I have are metal salts and never used in large amounts.
DMSO, although harmless in itself, I don`t want it in the Lab at all (not least because I have no use for it anyway), the concept of that stuff freaks
me out on several different levels.
Drugs, esp anything mind altering scares the crap out of me more than anything else on the list, it`s a genuine Phobia, even hospital anaesthetics I
won`t accept, it`s local or epidural only, never KO!
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
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Pertinent to the subject of working with elemental F, about eight years ago I was sitting at my dining table listening to another expat who was into
semiprecious (gem)stones, prattle on about hsi researches into the proprietary processes used by Thai and Sri Lankan businesses in such things to
improve or alter the color of stones to make them more valuable. I was really only half listening as I was not very interested in the subject, but, at
one point it sank in to me that this fellow was actually planning to obtain some sort of pressurized oven to cook these stones in an atmosphere of
fluorine gas, at elevated temperature and pressure, and he was going to do it in a residential environment.
At that point I held up my hand and said "You are mad." And I gave him my reasons, which hardly need to be articulated here. He did not seem to be in
the slightest concerned with the hazards of fluorine, which is bad enough at STP, but hot angry higher pressure F is something that made me shudder.
Anyway the discussion terminated not long thereafter, which was fine because I was afraid he was trying to tap me for an investment in this
hairbrained scheme.
I've done my share of foolish risky chemistry, but this was an occasion when the better part of valor worked in my favor.
NB to above
After some reflection I believe that the fellow's story was that presently and historically the stones were being cooked in molten salt baths
containing (ionic) fluorine e.g. simple or complex inorg. fluorides. And that his proposal was to replace that procedure with elemental F gas at
elevated pressure and temperature. And basically my reply was "Contained in what?" because Fluorine has this charming tendency to eat everything which
is why working with it requires very special equipment and procedures.
For example, if Dupont had not come up with fluorocarbon polymers at the juncture they did, the UF6 process (Oak Ridge) could not have been done.
Similarly, the German effort to make (pilot plant scale) F-containing nerve agents was hampered because they were working in silver lined vessels and
they weren't even using elemental F, just HF and salts. No fluoropolymers you see. Thus they had a full size production of the non-F containing Tabun
but neither Sarin nor Soman despite having invented these.
This guy wanted to work at temperatures above those that PTFE would tolerate. Madness!
[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Sauron]
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8012
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
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I'm not really scared of toxic substances, e.g. I work quite comfortably with HCl, HBr, SO2, NH3, Cl2, Br2. What does really scare me are the chems,
which have cumulative and/or long-term effects. If a chemical is a 'honest' poison, which lets me know that it is poisonous, then I can work with it.
E.g. working with volatile carcinogenic compounds, which are not bad at their use, but which may do damage in the long run make me feel uncomfortable.
I'm also VERY careful with high explosives. I never make more than tens of mg of such compounds, and I never store them. Also very fast burning mixes
I make in miniature amounts. But I do make them.
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Jdurg
Hazard to Others
Posts: 220
Registered: 10-6-2006
Location: Connecticut, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I really don't have a "line" per-se, but if it's a substance that I don't know a whole lot about or don't have any containment materials for, I simply
won't use it. If I do enough research to know what I'm working with, then I won't be afraid. Being respectful of what you're working with won't get
you hurt. Being afraid of what you're working with will almost ALWAYS get you hurt.
\"A real fart is beefy, has a density greater than or equal to the air surrounding it, consists of the unmistakable scent of broccoli, and usually
requires wiping afterwards.\"
http://maddox.xmission.com. |
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DeAdFX
Hazard to Others
Posts: 339
Registered: 1-7-2005
Location: Brothel
Member Is Offline
Mood: @%&$ing hardcore baby
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At the moment I draw the line at distillations and simple chemical reactions (double/single displacement and acid bace neutralization). I need a fume
hood to do more advanced chemistry. I have a limited resilience towards smelly fumes.
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Ozone
International Hazard
Posts: 1269
Registered: 28-7-2005
Location: Good Olde USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Integrated
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What I will do depends completely on where I am. If I am at work, with certified hoods, safety equipment, etc. There is really nothing I would not do
so long as the practice was well planned and potential mishaps stongly considered. OK, I will *not* do anything that would threaten my career, illicit
pharmies or explosives (nuclear or otherwise), for example (unless required for a legit synthesis--I use diazomethane, hydrazine, azides, etc.).
Radiotracers and ECD sources are OK (32P, 14C, 3H, 65Zn, 63Ni, 99Mo-99mTc, 137Cs-137mBa) and I am certified to handle them (although the paperwork
required puts me off more than the radiological hazards).
At home, I am much more concerned about my wife and my cats than my curiosity. If my cat cannot be around it, it cannot be done (he avoids hot things,
so distillation of things like EtOH is OK). It cannot escape my "workshop" (noticable by smell, etc.). You must be very careful to gather little
(preferably none) attention to hobby science in N. America; this is a shame and a detriment to the education of future generations .
Best of wishes to all,
O3
[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Ozone]
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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Fleaker
International Hazard
Posts: 1252
Registered: 19-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: nucleophilic
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For me, any nerve agent or drug I will never, ever make. Also, no extreme radioactive materials of any kind like plutonium or polonium. They're
fascinating but the toxicity is ridiculous. I am simply not set up for it, neither at home, nor in the professional laboratory.
As far as cyanides and extreme inorganic poisons, all halogens, deflagrators, primaries, extreme corrosives (including HF) are all fine so long as
done on moderate scale with thoughtful preparation/safety evaluation/careful disposal. I had wanted to work with HF on a larger scale for a while, so
I bought PTFE beakers, bottles, stir rods and other equipment. I think HClO4 is feasible as well, just that I would never try it with less than
reagent grade materials and absolutely clean glassware (same of chromyl chloride).
It comes down to common sense and knowing your limits. Preparation and common sense are also paramount. The most important thing is chemical knowledge
of what you're trying to do. I've had accidents before: bromine, manganese (VII) oxide, sodium, magnesium, and many more. These misadventures make me
more cautious and conservative. Some things are just better to read about.
At the moment I'm just about ready to make cesium and rubidium metal. Oleum is on the horizon when I get a few more fittings for the stainless tubing.
Eventually I'd like to make fluorine compounds like XeF2, but that'll have to wait till I have some spare cash to shell out for the xenon. Funny that
xenon is several times more expensive than fluorine :\
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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Misanthropy
Hazard to Self
Posts: 69
Registered: 24-3-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Variable
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That stuff above is all well & good etc.. but I'm shooting for Humunculii. Once I achieve that, I'm done with chemistry. 
Edit: Actually, once I clone myself I'll be done. I want to be able to send myself for pizza.
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indigofuzzy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 145
Registered: 1-10-2006
Location: DarkCity, Bay of Rainbows, Moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Distilled
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I draw the line wherever I stop feeling safe. For now, that rules out concentrated acids (until I'm equipped to handle them safely), cyanides,
explosives, halogens (once again, until I'm equipped to handle them safely - then I want small amounts to put into gas discharge tubes [ooh pretty
plasma!]), any toxic or nasty-smelling gasses, and anything much more radioactive than a smoke detector gives me the heebie-geebies, even though I'd
love to see first-hand a sample of radium glowing in the dark.
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Maya
Hazard to Others
Posts: 263
Registered: 3-10-2006
Location: Mercury
Member Is Offline
Mood: molten
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Fleaker wrote:
At the moment I'm just about ready to make cesium and rubidium metal
Which method are you planning on for making these?
Ca metal, or dichromate or azide method?
\"Prefiero ser yo extranjero en otras patrias, a serlo en la mia\"
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Fleaker
International Hazard
Posts: 1252
Registered: 19-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: nucleophilic
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@ I'm using calcium metal. At the moment, about 100g of RbCl will be reduced using a scaled up version of the method in Brauer's (available in the
library). 1250g of CsCl will also be reduced. I'm starting with rubidium first. So far it's all in order sans the glass part. It will all be ampouled
and the metal will never see argon, let alone air. I had a vacuum distillation receiver chosen (just like this 250mL http://aceglass.com/page.php?page=6638). But after talking to several people who've actually made and used cesium before and companies that
specialize in making glass for high vacuum environments, I've decided to have the glass custom made for higher thickness and of a different type of
glass to resist the metal. Apparently, Cs and Rb have no problems with borosilicate at room temperature (assuming there is no hydroxide present), but
the vapor is a different story.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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pantone159
National Hazard
Posts: 590
Registered: 27-6-2006
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: desperate for shade
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Distilling Cs metal does sound facinating. I'd expect that you'll end up coating the inside of the glass with a lovely golden colored film, at least
until you clean the glassware. Have fun with that part. 
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dapper
Hazard to Self
Posts: 66
Registered: 8-11-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I work with Sodium M-Arsenite and HgCl2...
Gotta say, the former scares the piss out of me. I don't breathe massing it.. and I probably wash my skin six or seven times.
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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HF, F and NO/NO2 are really the only things that terrify me. Radioactives, carcinogens, cyanides, lachrymators, nerve agents, drugs. None of those
scare me the list bit. I don't know why, maybe I don't fear death. It's kinda weird actually.
Is it even legal to mess with F in a residential area? I could understand small amounts like a couple of liters at a time but any more (especially
industrial amounts) is insane in a residential area.
But then again, it being so reactive, how far could it go compared to other less reactive toxins?
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8012
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
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Again, are you trolling us? Your list of things is totally irrational. NO/NO2 are not even remotely comparable to F2 and HF. These nitrogen oxides
certainly must be handled with respect, but the risk involved with F2 and HF is much larger. In your list, nerve agents and radioactives (except maybe
uranyl salts and thorium salts) also are of such great risk, that handling these outside of a well equipped lab really is insane. Do you really think
that there are people, playing around with Sarin, VX or mustards in their garage?
Also, your remark about messing with F in a residential area makes no sense. Small amounts are not liters, but milliliters (compressed gas) for
compounds like F2.
MagicJigPipe , I have the nasty idea, that you are trolling here with ridiculous posts.
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