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Microtek
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In fact, they reference Sciencemadness explicitly further down.
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Nemo_Tenetur
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LOL!
Sciencemadness cited together with Klapötke, Stierstorfer et. al.
This is a kind of knighthood/accolade, isn´t it?
I hadn´t time enough for a thorough reading, but I ´ ll do that soon.
But I contest that all or even most of us are doing illegal research with criminal intent! Most of us are just fascinated and would never ever want to
hurt, harm, destroy or even bother other people.
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Axt
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Of all things it the persulphates that cop a reference.
I've seen Sciencemadness referenced at least three times previously in journals.
Attachment: tetraamine copper persulphate.mp4 (4.9MB)
This file has been downloaded 146 times
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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How said Nemo Tenetur (se ipsum accusare)
Essentially all the discussants are digging into exotic compounds to achieve safe and reliable initiation. Which are contradictory requirements. Only
occasionally does someone examine secondary substances. And only exceptionally does someone ask about the construction or effects of a large charge.
Development of primarily - secondary substances: CHP (2015) neutral CHP and Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024) Diper
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Microtek
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It seems that my idea for making iron(III)perchlorate doesn't work as expected. When I weigh the filtered off precipitate (presumed NaCl), only about
one third of the expected amount was found.
Another idea is to go through BaCO3 + 2HClO4 --> Ba(ClO4)2, 3Ba(ClO4)2 + 2Fe2(SO4)3 --> 3BaSO4 + 2Fe(ClO4)3 and filter off the BaSO4.
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MineMan
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Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  | @Mineman:
The modified CoCP+ was considerably less sensitive than any NAP batch I have tried, and as such was quite promising. However, there are two problems
with it: Reproducibility and toxicity. The complexes react when they come into wet contact with something that is able to act as a ligand, and some of
the ligands (carbohydrazide) in the CoCP are probably exchanged for NT, or maybe some of the perchlorate ions are. Maybe polymeric complexes are
formed. The point is that it is difficult to achieve the same properties every time. I don't quite remember the Chinese paper (was it maybe
ICM-something?), but at any rate I haven't tried it.
@Axt:
I wonder about the quoted minimum charge to initiate PETN. They do state a minimum of about 200mg, but only describe testing 200 and 300 mg charges. I
haven't yet tried [Fe(4-ATRI)n](ClO4)3 complex using iron(III)perchlorate. I just dissolved the calculated amount of FeCl3 and NaClO4 in ethanol and
made another soln of 4-ATRI also in ethanol. On adding the first to the second (dropwise), a precipitate was formed. It changed character from a dull
brown to blood red over time, and I let it stir for about another hour after addition. It dried to a nice brick red free flowing powder. The
sensitivity is not very high and it behaves much like NHN. It is quite soluble in water, so I need to try it with Fe(ClO4)3 to avoid the NaCl
impurity. |
I think it is ICM something yes. How does NAP sensitivity compare to urazine perchlorate?
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Microtek
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I didn't systematically test the sensitivity of UZP, but it was quite sensitive. IIRC, a little more sensitive than PETN, though the nature of its
reaction when it goes could make it seem more sensitive in my minds eye. I could have worked around it if it wasn't for the hygroscopicity and also
the problematic preparation due to the combination of low basicity and low solubility of urazine.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | | I didn't systematically test the sensitivity of UZP, but it was quite sensitive. IIRC, a little more sensitive than PETN, though the nature of its
reaction when it goes could make it seem more sensitive in my minds eye. I could have worked around it if it wasn't for the hygroscopicity and also
the problematic preparation due to the combination of low basicity and low solubility of urazine. |
I see, isn’t it worth it if it is the most powerful energetic? There are ways around the hydroscopic nature  . I do recall your experiment of HMX with triaminoguanadine produced higher det pressures… but I also recall the UP,
despite its sensitivity had issues with critical diameter, limiting its brisance which should be explored further. Have you come across any new
promising energetics that can compete against those two?
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MineMan
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Back in 2022 I discussed this with microtek. Has anyone explored this or does anyone like Axt have any thoughts? Seems like it would be the ideal
primary explosive.
Primary explosive with a sensitivity of 10J impact and 120N Friction. Also thermally stable to 350C
It’s basically a primary explosive with less sensitivity than RDX!
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/prep.2022000...
I don’t have access to these papers, since scihub was shut down and I am no longer with the university, does anyone have a way to access these?
[Edited on 1-2-2025 by MineMan]
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Axt
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It's a salt of "Tz-FOX", essentially FOX-7 with a tetrazole moiety replacing one of the nitro's. It's not a trivial preparation; you will find its
potassium salt in older literature that is accessible through sci hub. If you track it back the starting compound is 4,6-Dichloro-5-nitropyrimidine
bought commercially ($500 for 25g).
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Nemo_Tenetur
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| Quote: Originally posted by Axt | | It's a salt of "Tz-FOX", essentially FOX-7 with a tetrazole moiety replacing one of the nitro's. It's not a trivial preparation; you will find its
potassium salt in older literature that is accessible through sci hub. If you track it back the starting compound is 4,6-Dichloro-5-nitropyrimidine
bought commercially ($500 for 25g). |
Thank you for this Information. 20 Dollar per gram precursor, final product probably expensive as gold, that"s out of my financial possibilities.
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Microtek
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I recently read a paper about a promising primary that was easy to prepare from "inexpensive commercially available materials". When I looked the
precursor up it was priced at right around 1000 euro for 25g, even in China or India.
@MineMan:
It turned out the critical diameter issue was a function of crystal size. Due to the way I made the UZP (heating equivalent amounts of urazine and
perchloric acid to dryness), fairly large crystals were formed. I tested the mechanical sensitivity of UZP when wet with gasoline, and deemed it
reasonably safe to grind like this in small portions (0.1 g at a time). When I tested the ground material, it worked just fine in 7 mm coloumns.
If you have ideas to get around the hygroscopicity, I would love to hear them. I tried a number of solutions myself, but didn't find anything that
worked.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | I recently read a paper about a promising primary that was easy to prepare from "inexpensive commercially available materials". When I looked the
precursor up it was priced at right around 1000 euro for 25g, even in China or India.
@MineMan:
It turned out the critical diameter issue was a function of crystal size. Due to the way I made the UZP (heating equivalent amounts of urazine and
perchloric acid to dryness), fairly large crystals were formed. I tested the mechanical sensitivity of UZP when wet with gasoline, and deemed it
reasonably safe to grind like this in small portions (0.1 g at a time). When I tested the ground material, it worked just fine in 7 mm coloumns.
If you have ideas to get around the hygroscopicity, I would love to hear them. I tried a number of solutions myself, but didn't find anything that
worked. |
Wow! That is expensive! I suppose for the FOX primary, if only 25mg is needed to set of a secondary and it is completely safe then it is worth it. But
NAP is also very safe as well.
Yes, I reread your thread last night and I do have some ideas. The first is 3 percent wax, but I am assuming you have tried this. The second would
be, binding it to 5 percent Viton. I don’t know if it de pronates in acetone… if so can DMSO dissolve viton… it seems it only swells non
crosslinked viton because of its polarity. THF dissolves viton quite well, could that be used to dissolve the UP and crosslink the viton into it?
Or even 3-5 percent petroleum jelly mixed with UP should do the trick.
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by MineMan]
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by MineMan]
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by MineMan]
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Alkoholvergiftung
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Found in the Book Escales "Die Initialsprengstoffe" something interesting the Copper salt of Ammoniumthiocyanat (made by the reaction of an ammoniak
containing Ammoniumthiocyanat solution and Coppersulfate)mixed with Potassiumchlorate after filling it in an blasting cap it only burns or flashes out
except 3 drops of Ethanol or Aceton are added and dryed. Sounds interesting for this who have easy access to ammoniumthiocyanat.Somer other compounds
are mentionetd Persulfocyancopper CuC2S3N2 and persulfocyanlead PbC2S3N2.
Isodithiocyanacid H2C2N2S2 and there copper and lead salts. And Pseudosulfurcyan HC3N3S3 .All heavy metall salts can be mixed wiht 2,5 to 3 parts
KClO3.
[Edited on 2-2-2025 by Alkoholvergiftung]
[Edited on 3-2-2025 by Alkoholvergiftung]
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Alkoholvergiftung
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More research on the first explosive. It was made by reaktion of Ammoniumthiocyanat in ammonia containing solution and Coppersulfate.
the Copperammonimthiocyanat was mixed 2,1 part to 4,9 parts Potassiumchlorate. Its descripet that 0,2gramm of that stuff can detonate Dynamite.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Alkoholvergiftung.......Have you tried making anything yet? Or is it just theorizing about ammonium thiocyanate?.....
Development of primarily - secondary substances: CHP (2015) neutral CHP and Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024) Diper
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Alkoholvergiftung
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Not made yet. Ammoniumthiocyanat is ordered  . It isnt only theory it seems they
used it in some blasting caps bevore ww1.The other sulfo compounds would be better but heavier to make.Storage stable up to 100C. Persulfocyan wold be
the simpelst and it was used as an yellow colour name Kanarin maybe it is somewhere aviable.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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I am curious for first resuts.......Beware on 10 fingers,,,,,
Development of primarily - secondary substances: CHP (2015) neutral CHP and Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024) Diper
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Nemo_Tenetur
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Silver styphnate?
Cited from the recent publication in "molecules 29-05588-v2", page 10:
" Silver styphnate has favorable explosive properties
and is a promising primary explosive. However, its cost limits its applications [11,85]"
The cited reference 11 is the book "primary explosives" from Matyas and Pachman. In this book is stated " ... Information about silver and cupric
salts is sparse" .
Reference 85 is a 90 year old patent where silver styphnate is used together with other common ingredients as a primer mixture.
I was unable to find any information about the "favorable" properties of this "promising" primary explosive. Does anybody know about impact
sensitivity, friction sensitivity, initiation efficiency, ESD sensitivity etc.?
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MineMan
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Has anyone investigated #2 from this paper. Very promising for a low sensitivity primary. Chemicals don’t look too exotic. I don’t know how to
separate 2 from 6 tho.
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2024/ma/d4ma0043...
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Axt
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This threads getting off track, it's meant to be specific to complex salts. That bi-imidazole is worthy of its own thread, its downside is its
pathetic yield.
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Microtek
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I think I've got everything required, although my glyoxal may require reviving. As far as I could see in the papers and patents, the yield seemed
OK-ish. If I find anything interesting I'll start a new thread (unless someone beats me to it...)
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Axt | | This threads getting off track, it's meant to be specific to complex salts. That bi-imidazole is worthy of its own thread, its downside is its
pathetic yield. |
Ok Axt, you’re right. Your a non metal primary.
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Axt
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Gallium DMSO Perchlorate is more vehemic than the iron salt analogue, flashes quite violently on ignition almost resembling NHN. Made the same way,
Ga(ClO4)3 precipitated from acetone solution with DMSO.
I ignited it on Al foil to see if it affected it, it didn't seem to.
[Edited on 22-3-2025 by Axt]
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Alkoholvergiftung
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The patent with the Ammoniumthiocyanat and Coppersulfate doesnt work i couldnt isolate any Copperammoniumthocyanat. It should form blass blue needles.
I got only crystals like from tetrammoniumcoppersulfate. I tried purification with EtOH no sucess. If you dont use ammoniusolution and react
ammoniumthiocyanat directly with Coppersulfate it forms metallic copper powder.
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