alternety
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
ammonium sulfamate source?
I have been trying for an extensive period of time to find a source of ammonium sulfamate. I want to use it for a non-chemistry use; compost
accelerator. Purity is not particularly important beyond not having anything particularly nasty in it. All I have been able to find is reagent grade
or higher (impractical pricing), metric tons + shipping from China or India (certain impracticalities there), and one company that won't sell to a
non-business individual.
I am estimating I need 20 to 50 lbs of the material.
Does anyone have any idea where I might purchase this with delivery to the Pacific NW of the USA?
|
|
|
watson.fawkes
International Hazard
Posts: 2793
Registered: 16-8-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Not exactly a
direct source, but you can get sulfamic acid from Home Depot and neutralize it with aqueous ammonia. How much do you need?
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  | | Not exactly a
direct source, but you can get sulfamic acid from Home Depot and neutralize it with aqueous ammonia. How much do you need? |
He said he needed between 20 and 50 pounds of the ammonium sulfamate.
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
497
National Hazard
Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: HSbF6
|
|
Look for sulfamic acid. I doubt the presence of the ammonium ion is critical, and if it is, neutralize the acid with ammonia. Or just mix it with an
ammonium containing fertilizer like ammonium nitrate, sulfate, etc.
http://www.qualitymarblecare.com/proddetail.php?prod=QMC325
http://www.floorlife.com/_e/Aqua_Mix_Problem_Solvers/product...
|
|
|
alternety
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The need for ammonium sulfamate is specific.
Will sulfamic acid + ammonia produce ammonium sulfamate. I am not a chemist. Making a whole bunch of it could be an issue. But the quantity was
because I may have only one chance to stock up. Batches of around a pound would probably suffice.
|
|
|
497
National Hazard
Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: HSbF6
|
|
If you can get concentrated ammonia, which shouldn't be hard, it will be no problem.
1 gallon of concentrated ammonia (30%) will react with 13 lb of sulfamic acid to form a mixture of about 15 lb of ammonium sulfamate and 7.25 lb
water. A few pounds of it will be dissolved in the water present.
Don't try react a lot the first time, since heat may be released by the reaction and cause some ammonia to boil off. Do it outside and stand up wind,
ammonia is not fun to breathe. Putting the chemicals in the freezer for a day before will help, and gradually adding the ammonia solution to the
sulfamic acid (in a container surrounded by ice water if need be) will easily avoid this problem. If you were planning on dissolving the ammonium
sulfamate in water before use, you could also use more dilute ammonia solutions or add water or ice to the sulfamic acid before adding the ammonia.
The reaction will stink of ammonia somewhat no matter how cold you keep it. There are pretty cheap gas mask filters that will remove it if you can't
handle it.
You should be able to easily produce it for under $6/lb. How's that for a solution?
PS
Why are you adding the ammonium sulfamate to your compost? Just curious.
[Edited on 29-8-2011 by 497]
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
http://www.amenity.co.uk/compost-accelerators/ammonium-sulph...
no really good references, but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_sulfamate#Compost_Acce...
High nitrogen content, plus a fairly strong acid that may speed up cellulose hydrolysis.
|
|
|
497
National Hazard
Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: HSbF6
|
|
Can it really do anything a mixture of urea and ammonium sulfate couldn't? I was under the impression that the sulfamate ion decomposed pretty rapidly
anyway.
[Edited on 29-8-2011 by 497]
|
|
|
watson.fawkes
International Hazard
Posts: 2793
Registered: 16-8-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Doh! That's what I get for reading
only the first paragraph, apparently.
|
|
|
alternety
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks much guys. That is a degree of chemistry I can probably handle. It has been a very long time since I was in a chem lab. And then I was rational
enough to avoid damaging body parts. I will continue with that theme.
not_important seems to have covered the why. It is also good for stump removal and killing stumps that persist in regrowing. My understanding is that
it is viewed as normal food by plants. But the molecular structure is just enough different that it will bind to the plant cells, blocking other
access, but can not be broken down. Kind of like us breathing CO. Net result is that the plant starves to death. It is also extremely benign to the
environment; particularly compared to other alternatives. And yes, it does decompose quickly into a harmless fertilizer.
$6 a lb is a bit pricey for bulk use, but I have found no other non-reagent sources, so the bullet needs to be bitten. It is a quite inexpensive bulk
commodity chemical in lots of a few metric tons plus shipping from China or India. I have seen the site not_important provided before. That bag is
just what you get from China. Sure wish there were such a store in the US. The UK seems more aware/interested in the material.
I believe I know where to get sulfamic acid (e.g., hardware store). Where would one look for the ammonia?
Just a side note - a lot of sites indicate sulfamic acid is an alternate name for ammonium sulfamate. Way back in my research I finally figured out
that was not true. It really put a wet blanket on my search since sulfamic acid was easy; ammonium sulfamate is not.
[Edited on 30-8-2011 by alternety]
|
|
|
497
National Hazard
Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: HSbF6
|
|
You know, I don't have any data to back this up but I would be willing to bet that a mixture of urea and sulfamic acid would act near
indistinguishably from ammonium sulfamate since urea decomposes into ammonia and CO2 rather easily. Urea is considerably easier to come by and handle
in bulk, since most feed stores have it in 50lb bags for cheap. It would be much more pleasant to deal with too, avoiding the ammonia stench and
reacting liquid chemicals.
10 pounds of sulfamic acid plus 3 pounds ($1-2 worth) of urea would result in the same ammonia to sulfamic acid ratio as ammonium sulfamate.
500 pounds sulfamic acid is about $1250 after shipping for this outfit
http://shop.chemicalstore.com/navigation/detail.asp?id=SU015
The needed 150 pounds of urea will definitely be under $100..
Otherwise you'd need about 40 gallons from here for example
http://store.hvchemical.com/browse.cfm/4,29.html
which you run you another $600 plus shipping.
With urea it would be about $2.4/lb
With ammonia it would be less than $3.5/lb
Maybe try both side by side and compare?
All the components are pretty high volume commodities and should be available for a bit cheaper than the above sources if you search hard enough in
the right places.
|
|
|
alternety
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
497 - I appreciate your effort to help. I understand you are trying to save me money and effort.
However, it is the specific molecule of ammonium sulfamate that is required. Having the same base molecules/elements in the mix is not equivalent.
Trust me. See the description of the mechanism I posted above.
Oh, do you have a suggestion for the source of concentrated ammonia? Is that something labeled as a product in hardware stores or somewhere? Oops, I
just looked at your last links. I had not looked at first because I thought they were bulk only suppliers.
I actually will be dissolving the resultant chemical in water, so I could use a less concentrated ammonia as you stated. But the concentrate, if
reasonably available, would make it easier from the volume of containers needed.
[Edited on 30-8-2011 by alternety]
[Edited on 30-8-2011 by alternety]
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think that 497 is correct - soil bacteria break down urea very rapidly, releasing CO2 and NH3. The strong acid sulfamic acid will grab onto NH3 from
salts of weaker acids such as CO2 and the organic acid in soil, forming ammonium sulfamate.
|
|
|
alternety
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A couple of additional questions, if you would.
I would prefer to store the ammonium sulfamate as a solid. Not essential, but handy for measurement. I believe ammonium sulfamate is strongly
hygroscopic. Would it work to heat the mixture (after reaction) gently to evaporate water without causing chemical reactions that destroy the ammonium
sulfamate?
Any idea what the shelf life will be for dried ammonium sulfamate. Based on seeing it for sale in bulk, it would seem stable if dry. I am thinking
about making some this fall to use in the spring. I can use some now, but the bulk use would be spring.
|
|
|
alternety
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I am finally trying to mix the chemicals. We had snow a month or so ago, but I did not think to try it then. Would have made it much easier to keep
cool.
I am trying to find a suitable container. I do not have any safe glass containers.
I have an empty solvent can I can cut open (being sure to eliminate residual vapors). It is steel and I would like to know if it would be OK to mix in
it. I assume from earlier replies here that the reaction will be too hot to use plastic containers, which I have in abundance. Aluminum pots would I
assume react.
How about stainless steel pots. I could use a pot from the kitchen, but I would have to be very very sure that nothing would happen to the pot
(pitting, staining, etc.). Would that work?
Any info or suggestions would be appreciated. I need to use some real soon now (like last week).
|
|
|
alternety
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I am finally trying to mix the chemicals. We had snow a month or so ago, but I did not think to try it then. Would have made it much easier to keep
cool. I am shooting for reacting a pint of ammonia for the first batch.
I am trying to find a suitable container. I do not have any safe glass containers.
I have an empty solvent can I can cut open (being sure to eliminate residual vapors). It is steel and I would like to know if it would be OK to mix in
it. I assume from earlier replies here that the reaction will be too hot to use plastic containers, which I have in abundance. Aluminum pots would I
assume react.
How about stainless steel pots. I could use a pot from the kitchen, but I would have to be very very sure that nothing would happen to the pot
(pitting, staining, etc.). Would that work?
Any info or suggestions would be appreciated. I need to use some real soon now (like last week).
|
|
|
MrWizard
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 2-5-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ammonium Sulfamate - Practical experience
OK, I did this. Sulfamic Acid from Ebay, cost $5 /lb. The janitorial supply had 10% Aqueous Ammonia for $6 / gallon. I bought a big stainless steel
bowl from IKEA for $8.
I put 64 ounces (1/2 gallon) of 10% Ammonia solution in the bowl, (working outdoors). I gradually spooned in 1350 grams of sulfamic acid, and stirred
more or less continuously with a piece of scrap wood, until the acid was dissolved. There was no evolution of ammonia fumes, and the solution did get
hot, but not hot enough to boil or spatter. I think it could if you add the acid too quickly. Just feel the outside of the bowl, and if it is getting
too warm to touch, take a break, and let it cool off. This is an advantage of using more dilute 10% ammonia solution, less chance of boiling.. At this
point there is too much acid in the solution, and it should no longer smell like ammonia, because it is all reacted. Check the pH with test strips
from the aquarium section of a pet store, or the pool and spa supply section, of any large department store. It should be acidic. Keep adding ammonia
solution, VERY SLOWLY, until the solution tests neutral pH, (around 6.8 - 7.2). As I approached neutral pH, my solution darkened in color a bit,
looking like slightly rusty water. I let it cool, and stored it in a labelled plastic jug. This stuff corrodes metal, especially copper and brass.
Clean your bowl. I ended up with 3300 ml of solution which should have 1586 gm of Ammonium sulfamate in it. Some of the old literature said this was
used as a weed killer by mixing 1 kilogram in 5 liters of water, used as a foliar spray. Since you have 1.586 kilograms in 3.3 liters of water you
would need to add 3 more litters of warm water to be very close to this concentration. Since you would not use an unlicensed weed killer (no matter
how safe and effective it is) you will need to figure out the proper dilution for your application, be it compost accelerator, fire retardant,
whatever.
|
|
|
chloric1
International Hazard
Posts: 1146
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: GroupVII of the periodic table
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stoichiometrically Balanced
|
|
I keep seeing references to sulfamates being unstable. My understanding was that is was mainly the free acid in aqueous solution being heated that
was unstable and that metal sulfamate salts where stable. I guess I’ll need a solution of barium chloride and some test tubes to find out for
myself
Fellow molecular manipulator
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
