Refinery
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 17-2-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: Still
|
|
How the L pills in WWII era were made?
I read some news article about someone finding a WWII era cyanide capsule and I began to wonder what they actually contained and how they were made.
Some sources state that the content was just saturated solution of cyanide salt, while some sources state that they were filled with plain liquid
prussic acid, aka hydrogen cyanide. Apparently HCN is much faster acting than cyanide salt.
Considering it boils at 26C and is highly flammable, how they were able to seal them in very small ampoules without boiling them off or igniting
vapors, and even after forming it, bursting it by the vapor pressure generated by superheated HCN liquid? One method I figured would be to form a
small, almost capillary channel, filling it with thin syringe needle, and then, by applying a minimal propane flame, closing the capillary without
exciting the contents excessively. I wonder they stored the amount of HCN in a multi-use vial with membrane to access it with needle.
I also remember reading from this forum that HCN is unstable and can undergo explosive polymerization without stabilizing it with acid. They suggested
that soviets used phosphoric acid to stabilize munition and missile delivered CN systems.
|
|
|
karlos³
International Hazard
Posts: 1520
Registered: 10-1-2011
Location: yes!
Member Is Offline
Mood: oxazolidinic 8)
|
|
I would think it was a saturated cyanide salt solution, as this would be more practicable.
We had one of ours(i.e. clandestine chemists) carrying around a vial with the potassium salt as a necklace, in case they would get him and put him in
prison again for bail jumping.
He apparently downed the salt(maybe it was also a solution, I don't know) in the back of the police car when it came down to this.
It worked very well, he didn't even made it alive to the hospital after the cops thought he had a heart attack in the back of his car.
So in short, no one would go to the trouble trying to ampoule liquid HCN up(over a blanket of explosive HCN vapour!), as the salts already suffice
well for this.
[Edited on 13-6-2020 by karlos³]
|
|
|
Bedlasky
International Hazard
Posts: 1239
Registered: 15-4-2019
Location: Period 5, group 6
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
If I know, they also used rings with solid cyanide tablets.
|
|
|
Refinery
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 17-2-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: Still
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  | | We had one of ours(i.e. clandestine chemists) carrying around a vial with the potassium salt as a necklace, in case they would get him
|
Hardcore.
AFAIK the pure HCN can render unconscious within seconds, while salt takes a few minutes. I guess the timeframe is insignificant in this matter. There
is no way in hell to get to hospital in time - I think that sufficient dose is irreversible even if it is taken directly in front of fully stocked
medical unit. Perhaps some sort of em'cy blood infusion could help.
I was just curious because there are two contradicting sources, other citing directly using prussic acid, and other saturated solution of cyanide
salt. Finding the sources doesn't change the interest of this matter itself.
Technically it should be well viable to capsule HCN, especially in a professional setting. The ampoules could be pre-formed separately, and a
needle-thin channel left to inject the cryogenic liquid into the ampule which is made so that the HCN fills basically the whole volume, also submerged
in salt-ice bath, and then the thin neck is sealed at once with small propane torch. The HCN could heat up, but it takes maybe a second or two to melt
and seal the neck, which would not be sufficient to make it generate vapor pressure to cause issues. The gas volume would be microliters, not enough
to sustain combustion, and no reagent were to be handled in open air so vapors remain minimal. These same mad scientists handled all kind of stuff up
to nerve gases so I think it is well doable in that context.
Just thinking here how it *could* be (have been) made.
|
|
|
draculic acid69
International Hazard
Posts: 1371
Registered: 2-8-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'd think anyone with a sodium cyanide tablet in there mouth or stomach would get a dose of hcn as well. Chewing on one getting saliva all over it and
then exhaling co2 would definitely release some hcn. I'm guessing as soon as it hits stomach acid the same thing will happen
|
|
|
Ubya
International Hazard
Posts: 1247
Registered: 23-11-2017
Location: Rome-Italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: I'm a maddo scientisto!!!
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Refinery | | Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ | | We had one of ours(i.e. clandestine chemists) carrying around a vial with the potassium salt as a necklace, in case they would get him
|
Hardcore.
AFAIK the pure HCN can render unconscious within seconds, while salt takes a few minutes. I guess the timeframe is insignificant in this matter. There
is no way in hell to get to hospital in time - I think that sufficient dose is irreversible even if it is taken directly in front of fully stocked
medical unit. Perhaps some sort of em'cy blood infusion could help.
I was just curious because there are two contradicting sources, other citing directly using prussic acid, and other saturated solution of cyanide
salt. Finding the sources doesn't change the interest of this matter itself.
Technically it should be well viable to capsule HCN, especially in a professional setting. The ampoules could be pre-formed separately, and a
needle-thin channel left to inject the cryogenic liquid into the ampule which is made so that the HCN fills basically the whole volume, also submerged
in salt-ice bath, and then the thin neck is sealed at once with small propane torch. The HCN could heat up, but it takes maybe a second or two to melt
and seal the neck, which would not be sufficient to make it generate vapor pressure to cause issues. The gas volume would be microliters, not enough
to sustain combustion, and no reagent were to be handled in open air so vapors remain minimal. These same mad scientists handled all kind of stuff up
to nerve gases so I think it is well doable in that context.
Just thinking here how it *could* be (have been) made. |
it is still way easier to just use a solution or a tablet of pure salt. nitrogen dioxide has a similar boiling point, do you think it is feasable to
drink a liquid that flash boils in your mouth? you wouldn't be able to drink much as it turns to gas pretty fast in your mouth
---------------------------------------------------------------------
feel free to correct my grammar, or any mistakes i make
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
Refinery
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 17-2-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: Still
|
|
That's a good point, now that you say it. I wonder how it'd feel to pour a liquid in your mouth that boils at 26C? We presume the liquid would be non
hazardous to health.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
A boiling liquid in your mouth doesn't feel that strange, I think the Leidenfrost absorps most of the physical bumping.
You can put a hand full of liquid nitrogen in your mouth, it just feels a bit cold. The effect is pretty cool though, you can blow white clouds out of
your mouth and nose, and of course the terrified looks all around are priceless.
|
|
|
Vomaturge
Hazard to Others
Posts: 286
Registered: 21-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: thermodynamic
|
|
But be damn sure not to swallow that liquid nitrogen. You'd get frostbite internally, and also a burst stomach possibly.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140222192214/http://www.wpi.ed...
As far as the original question, I don't know that it had to be terrifically fast acting. In any case, once they had chewed/swallowed it, the captors
would have to figure out what they wanted from them, and how to make them talk, and simply threatening their life would no longer be intimidating by
itself. So even if it took minutes or tens of minutes to act, it would likely be effective.
I read in a kids book (Spy by Richard Platt, Eyewitness books from Dorling Kindersly) that it worked in 5 seconds. I very, very, highly doubt that,
unless it was a huge pill of an HE that was somehow triggered by them biting into it. Now that would be messy.
Anyone else notice a bunch of topics about mass poisonings, booby traps, cyanide pills etc in miscellaneous lately? Not complaining, just usually
these topics don't come up. By the way, my first thought on the " anti bike theft agent" thread was the same as Yobbo 2, and my second was the same as antiswat. I must be more a physicist than a chemist
I now have a YouTube channel. So far just electronics and basic High Voltage experimentation, but I'll hopefully have some chemistry videos soon. |
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1694
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I remember some blog where a guy did the liquid nitrogen in the mouth effect. He remarked that it cracked 2 of his teeth.
It seems possible that even hot liquids like soup or coffee on fillings might have a slightly different COE and that more rapid heat transfer create
an even greater stress on a tooth.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
