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JohnWW
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Quote: Originally posted by Mossydie  | | Beyond the economic problems, surely there's an argument that the government should do everything in its power to eradicate Meth production on moral
grounds? |
No! Ever since the Prohibition era of alcohol of the 1920s, which merely served to enrich a few smugglers, bootleggers, moonshiners, slygroggers, and
the proprietors of "speakeasys" (illegal pubs), it has been clear that banning various drug substances merely creates blackmarkets for them. This, due
to the public perception of shortages of the substances, and resulting steep price rises for them, can be exploited by the criminal element in
supplying them, which began with the millionaire gangsters of the 1920s, such as Al Capone, Legs Diamond (Jack Moran), Pretty Boy Floyd, Baby Face
Nelson, Dutch Schultz, Bugs Moran, and the rest. It culminated in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre of Bugs Moran's gang by Al Capone's, on 14th
Feb. 1929 in Chicago, Il.
Serious drug addiction and consequent criminal involvement was never a problem when for centuries, until about the 1930s, one could go down to the
local drugstore, and buy any amount of heroin, morphine, cocaine, marijuana, hashish, barbiturates, and amphetamines, over-the-counter with no
questions or prescriptions, often in attractive richly-decorated packaging. Heroin was widely advertized by manufacturing chemists as being "the
perfect guardian of health", and a cure-all.
If drugs were legal, their prices would be so low that it would not be worthwhile for criminals to get involved in blackmarketing them, blackmarket
(non-pharmacy) supplies of them would be minimal, and any addicts (who would be much fewer) would be more willing to come forward for treatment.
Because drugs would then be much less in the news media, there would be much fewer people trying them out as novelties. Many people have the
philosophy that, if something is made illegal by the government, it must be good for you, and so try illegal drugs either out of curiosity or as an
act of defiance of the $tate.
[Edited on 10-10-09 by JohnWW]
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Magpie
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Thank you watson and entropy. I certainly have been educated. I can understand that there would be significant organo-phosphorus contamination.
This is the basis for many insecticides.
Actually, this is one of the reasons I don't like to use motels much anymore.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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S.C. Wack
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The links are typical, methamphetamine base itself being what is targeted. Since we are in an age where we can detect very very very low levels of
things like meth, getting to a level like below 10 micrograms per square meter is rather challenging.
However, this meth residue has less to do with the manufacture of meth than from the smoking of it by the operators. It's convenient to say it's from
the evil meth cooks and their sinister chemistry.
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watson.fawkes
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Thanks for that. Here's an excerpt germane to the
question of politics of changing drug laws: | Quote: | About 20 states have passed laws requiring meth contamination cleanup, and they use widely varied standards. Virtually all the laws hold the property
owner financially responsible; Colorado appears to be the only state that allots federal grant money to help innocent property owners faced with
unexpected cleanup jobs.
In other states, like Georgia, landlords and other real estate owners have fought a proposed cleanup law. |
Property owners have a class interest in reducing the amount of money they have to pay for cleaning up. They can try to foist off
costs on someone else; this is the Georgia example. Beyond the immediate scope of the article, though, consider how that same class of property owners
would respond to a proposed law decriminalizing meth production. Such a law would cost them money and they'll oppose it.
Generalizing further, there's no _a priori_ reason why there won't be "home chemistry research lab clean up" somewhere in the future. Perfectly legal
research, when performed sloppily, can generate just as much toxicity, perhaps more.
Here's another excerpt from that article: | Quote: | | To Ms. Holt’s horror, inspectors found high concentrations of meth on her kitchen countertops, where she sterilized bottles, prepared baby food and
doled out snacks. |
The assays for contaminants focus on the illegal substances themselves, since that's the
evidence in court that law enforcement is interested in. So there's an observation bias in favor of specific contraband substances and against all
other byproducts of synthesis. So whenever I read "meth was found", I have to wonder exactly what else is actually there. The various symptoms I've
read about don't seem to me to be caused solely by methamphetamine as such (although it's certainly possible they are).
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entropy51
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| Quote: | | The various symptoms I've read about don't seem to me to be caused solely by methamphetamine as such (although it's certainly possible they are).
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Probably not by pure product, but the illicit stuff is never pure.
| Quote: | | Generalizing further, there's no _a priori_ reason why there won't be "home chemistry research lab clean up" somewhere in the future. Perfectly legal
research, when performed sloppily, can generate just as much toxicity, perhaps more. |
There already is! Recall the threads here about the hapless Mr. Deeb in Massachusetts. I think the real risk to many of us (but not all - you know
who you are) is not being brought up on drug charges, but rather being charged 200 K US$ for "environmental cleanup" of our labs.
If you read the court transcripts in drug lab cases, you see that the court recognizes narc squad officers as "experts" and they give testimony to the
effect that the whole place is contaminated with "biohazards" because there was a bottle of HCl under the sink. I posted a link to one of these
transcripts back in June. Interesting and scary reading.
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watson.fawkes
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Granted, but what I
was really talking about was actual contamination by a non-property owner, neither satisfied in the Deeb case, whose "clean up" is a jurisdiction
covering its own ass.
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Sandmeyer
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It is quite obvious that certain groups profit enormously from keeping you constantly brainwashed and frightened with the demons that are everywhere
and ought to destroy you. Illegal (i.e certain) drugs are one of those demons (but of course when Pfizer sells those same compounds they are angels).
Others such demons are indians, blacks, russians, homosexuals, nicaraguans, communists, list can be very long. It is an old and very effective trick
used by few to control many, and also to relocate the public resources into a few private pockets. More demons = less freedom. Enjoy.
[Edited on 10-10-2009 by Sandmeyer]
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1281371269
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| Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW |
No! Ever since the Prohibition era of alcohol of the 1920s, which merely served to enrich a few smugglers, bootleggers, moonshiners, slygroggers, and
the proprietors of "speakeasys" (illegal pubs), it has been clear that banning various drug substances merely creates blackmarkets for them. This, due
to the public perception of shortages of the substances, and resulting steep price rises for them, can be exploited by the criminal element in
supplying them, which began with the millionaire gangsters of the 1920s, such as Al Capone, Legs Diamond, Pretty Boy Floyd, and the rest.
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Yes, but regardless of the effects of making substances illegal or attempting to stop their production, (which I agree often prevent a good case for
legalization) assuming one thinks that the substance will have only a negative on users and society then one would be morally obligated to do
everything possible to try to get rid of it. An analogy could run along the lines that if you know someone is out to kill someone else and you have an
opportunity to take away their gun then you would probably do so, even if this potentially leads to them suffering a far more violent death at the
hands of a crude implement.
But this is a chemistry forum - Molarity, not Morality, I apologise for raising the topic.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mossydie | | An analogy could run along the lines that if you know someone is out to kill someone else and you have an opportunity to take away their gun then you
would probably do so, even if this potentially leads to them suffering a far more violent death at the hands of a crude implement.
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That's quite a good analogy, Mossydie; it seems to sum up anti-drug measures very neatly. . .
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mossydie |
Yes, but regardless of the effects of making substances illegal or attempting to stop their production, (which I agree often prevent a good case for
legalization) assuming one thinks that the substance will have only a negative on users and society then one would be morally obligated to do
everything possible to try to get rid of it. An analogy could run along the lines that if you know someone is out to kill someone else and you have an
opportunity to take away their gun then you would probably do so, even if this potentially leads to them suffering a far more violent death at the
hands of a crude implement.
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Well, a much better analogy would be alcohol and nicotine. Where are the "moral obligations" to criminalize them? What truly is immoral (or
should be in a reasonable society) is when The State makes it illegal for the individual to dock certain ligands into his own
receptors. That's tyranny and is no different from criminalizing the act of preciving certain colors or smells.
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1281371269
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Alcohol and nicotine doesn't provide an analogy...
The issue with these is that they are too ingrained into culture. We're past the point at which they could be eradicated because the majority of the
population would be against that - no politician would ever do anything that would loose such large numbers of voters. But in the case of the other
drugs, luckily enough we're not at the stage where they can't be wiped out, and clearly the majority of the population feels it's a good thing to try
to eradicate them.
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | | Alcohol and nicotine doesn't provide an analogy... |
Yes they do.
| Quote: | | The issue with these is that they are too ingrained into culture. |
That's not even an argument. Culture? Do you meen apple pie and baseball? Besides, why would your "culture" decide what is legal or not for someone
else to dock into his receptors? Sounds absurd.
| Quote: | | We're past the point at which they could be eradicated because the majority of the population would be against that - no politician would ever do
anything that would loose such large numbers of voters. |
Vast majority of the population is against the war - but wars there are. The population are the outsiders, for all practical purposes they have no say
in the shapings of the policies that affects their lifes. So, no that argument isn't valid either, the state can criminalize without population liking
the legislation, the file-sharing-copyright issue is one of many such examples. In state-capitalist society the state is owned and used as an
instrument by mega corporations for their own private interests. Financial corporation bailout is one recent example, people didn't like it but who
cares? Thst's the reality, by the people for the people is a comfortable illusion.
[Edited on 11-10-2009 by Sandmeyer]
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Vogelzang
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This is an interesting patent. Phenylpropanolamine used to be OTC in the US, but isn't any more. Maybe another hydrogenation method could be used,
ie. CTH.
US 2243295 Phenylpropanolamine and HCOH hydrogenated (Ni catalyst) to produce phenylisopropylmethylamine
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Vogelzang
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More patents.
2146473 Methylation of phenylisopropylamine, 1) using methyl iodide on benzaldehyde Schiff base, and 2) using HCOH and activated Al
2146474 Para hydroxy P2P, alcohol, 40% aqueous CH3NH2, reduction using activated Al turnings
2414031 Nitromethane + aldehyde + PtO catalyst --> secondary amine
2700682 Ketimine reduction, example 1: P2P, CH3NH2, KOH drying agent, example 2: catalytic reduction using Pd/C
2828343 P2P + CH3NH2 reduction using cupric oxide catalyst
3925475 P2P-like imines reduced with NaBH4
[Edited on 11-10-2009 by Vogelzang]
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1281371269
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You seem to misunderstand - I simply argued that as these drugs can be eradicated then every effort should be made to achieve that, EVEN IF it might
be futile in the long run.
But hang on - you weren't the guy I had a similar argument with over a youtube video were you?
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Vogelzang
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2011790 p-MeO-P2P aminated with MeNH3Cl + NaOOCH (example 4)
2205530 2MeO-P2P, activated Al turnings, ether, 40% MeNH2 refluxed 6 hours
2382686 4Me-P2P from Me-C6H6CH2CN + EtOAc using Na in EtOH, 4Me-P2P aminated with MeNH2 using Ni catalyst and H2 at several atmospheres and 90-100º C
5220068 1,3-diphenylacetone (example 5), 96% EtOH, n-propylamine, Al foils(Hg)
http://www.pat2pdf.org
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mossydie | | But in the case of the other drugs, luckily enough we're not at the stage where they can't be wiped out, and clearly the majority of the population
feels it's a good thing to try to eradicate them. |
And paradoxically, all efforts at eradication have had the opposite effect.
The most dangerous drugs have been glamourised by prohibition. . .
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entropy51
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Chemporn for people who have neither chemicals nor glassware. Drooling over all the ways they could get laid if they just had a 3 neck flask.
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Vogelzang
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Vicks inhalers contain l-methamphetamine aka levfetamine, levo-methaphetamine, or l-desoxyephedrine. You should be able to convert it into the
racemic form using these processes:
US 2608583 Method for stereo-chemical equilibration of secondary carbinamines
US 2797243 Improved method for converting l-amphetamine into d-l-amphetamine
http://ep.espacenet.com/numberSearch
http://www.pat2pdf.org
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Polverone
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The original question has been answered, and the recent discussion seems none too encouraging.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Thread Closed
12-10-2009 at 09:17 |
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