crazyboy
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Garage rusting
A little over a year ago 400+ grams of stars ignited in my garage. Thankfully no one was harmed and the fire went out seconds after it started nothing
valuable was damaged too bad just the plywood they were sitting on.
A few days after the incident everything metal in the garage rusted with a very hick solid coat of rust. We spent a long time laboriously cleaning
every nut and bolt and wiping off all the residue.
However to this day metal tools rust within days if left uncovered. It isn't nearly as bad as before however it is a huge pain.Tools washed with
WD-40, Evaporust and Flitz are all sparkly clean until re exposed to the air.
We are taking everything out now and cleaning it and then we plan to paint the walls and the ceiling in the hopes that the oxidizers that were
released in the fire can be contained.
Any ideas what to do to prevent further rusting?
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Bikemaster
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I have the same problem... I never burn that much mixture in my garage but thing get rust much faster in my garage now that before.
I will be very intrest to find a way to stop most of this corrosion.
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Mr. Wizard
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Any Chlorates or Perchlorates in those stars? Chlorides are famous for making rust, and I'm guessing you had a nice puff of smoke that settled on
everything.
My second guess would be a bottle of Muriatic Acid ( Hydrochloric) somewhere in the garage. Even unopened this stuff will put a coat of rust on
everything. Been there, done that.
Last guess would be some Bromine or Iodine slowly leaking or sublimating .
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crazyboy
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Yeah... Ammonium and potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate etc. I used to keep HCl in there but it has since been moved. I have also had some
reactions with HCl and Br2 gas.
We knew that was the problem but the real question is how to stop it.
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chemrox
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I would include suspicion of aggressive Cl- which of course, HCl provides but some of the colors in the stars might include as well. Also, I assume
the fire was put out with water. If its not completly dry the Cl- situation would be exacerbated by the moisture. I had an acid atmosphere in my lab
that was rusting everything. A previously opened HCl bottle or HNO3 bottle will contribute as will acid chlorides. Storing any acid chlorides there?
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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chloric1
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How about making a 5 gallon bucket of very warm soapy water with lots of bubbles and adding a few ounces of calcium carbonate powder to the water and
wiping down affected areas and rinsing. Or better to use gardening lime, impure CaOH2, and form a basic chloride and rinsing away.
Incidently phosphoric acid reacts with metals like iron and zinc to form protective phosphate coatings. So valuable iron maybe painted with naval
jelly, washed and primered and painted or laquered.
[Edited on 7/5/2009 by chloric1]
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Bikemaster
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I got 4 liter of Hcl in my garade too... each time after open it, it fume for at least 4 hour (with the cap on). I try to minimise the fume by puting
it in my fume hood... maybe it work but why it stop? i think that it is because it forming a white salt every where around the cap (i felt stupid, but
i d'ont really know what this is exactly, i got the same white stuff around my sulfurique acid bottle cap and my nitric acid bottle cap).
I also burn some chlorate base mix in my garage but than much.
Can it be a good idea to put a water proof container outside and put my acid and oxider ouside??? maybe only for the hcl??? or maybe try to dont make
any chlorate burning test inside.
But the big question is how to get rid of the (rusting radial).
Do you think that it can be an option to just spray a solution sodium bicarbonate every where with a paint gun??? (good idea or just stupid)
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Mr. Wizard
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Chlorides (halides) on steel make rust. You will have to wash everything with soapy water and get off all the rust. Any remaining rust will hold bits
of chloride in it's structure and continue to rust. . Lots of water and scrubbing. Don't waste time trying to 'neutralize it', nothing will keep it
from catalyzing the rust process. After it's clean try using motor oil on exposed metal. Well almost nothing. Maybe some of those 'vapor barrier'
papers treated with some chemical.
If I had some valuable machinery I'd take it outside and use a power washer on it, and then dry it with some compressed air. Scrub or sand off any
rust , repeat as needed. Follow up with some good 30 weight motor oil rubbed in with a cotton cloth. Don't run electric stuff until it's really dry.
Wow, I hit the trifecta there with guessing perchlorates, HCl and Bromine LOL.
That crusty white stuff that forms around the bottle neck may be the ammonia salt. Any ammonia with HCl vapor always puts a white haze on all the
windows too. NH4Cl
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Saerynide
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Grease all ferrous things with some oil? EVerything in the tropical weather here rusts like crazy, but tools coated in motor oil have always stayed
mirror shiny (its been years and still no rust)
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satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
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setback
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You oil swords too for the same reason, they are made from steel that can rust easily.
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Bikemaster
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so i just need to sand and wash every steel stuff to get rid of the rust, just keep an eye on every rusted spot because only a tiny spot can help to
make it rust much faster.
Also, when i make my burn test, i made it on a steel plate, and i know that the place rust very fast, but the cl- does go only on the steel plate or
it goes in the air and attack every piece of uncoted steel place near???
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Paddywhacker
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Making Cl2, Br2 or I2 are big no-no's in a toolshed, or around anything with cuircit boards in it. SO2 is nearly as bad.
You may have SO2 and HCl outgassing from your woodwork. So this needs to be washed down with sodium carbonate solution.
An experimental solution might to be to generate enough ammonia to absorb into and neutralize any residual acids.... or you might get creative and
use a heavier amine.
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Mr. Wizard
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When you make Cl or Br gas it will act like a gas and spread around. It may not react with the steel, depending on factors I don't understand. One
factor I do understand is moisture, if it has moisture it will react. High pressure chlorine will eat holes in steel lines or tanks if they contain
any water. The chloride residue from Chlorates and Perchlorates is more like a dust and is going to be deposited like dust. It can sit on a metal
surface for a day or a month and when it gets the right amount of moisture it will rust. I live in a dry climate, and it doesn't take much. My
theory is the choride reacts with Iron to make an iron chloride which is hydrolyzed with moisture to form the red oxide and more HCl which then
attacks the iron again. The rust from chlorides is almost always very red. I don't think anything short of removing the chloride ions is going to
stop this. It's wash, scrape, steel wool and 400 wet or dry sandpaper with plenty of elbow grease. I don't think ammonia is going to 'neutralize'
anything, but I'm often wrong. All common chlorides cause rust.
After it's washed clean, oil it. Not WD-40, but real oil. If you have guns or machinery check them first. I've told what I know about this.
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crazyboy
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The rusting only started after the fire, while I'm sure the HCl and Br2 didn't help, but I know they aren't the main culprit. Two ideas have been
suggested.
1. The smoke from the fire caused oxidizers to adhere to the ceiling, walls and tools immediately rusting them and continuing to rust them as
particles slowly fell from the ceiling. (This is corroborated by a very fine ash layer on the ceiling)
2. The chemical smoke landed on the tools and wasn't washed away (unlikely as cleaned tools which are covered stay clean and cleaned tools exposed in
the garage rust)
Number one makes much moire sense the real question is what can we do? The plan is to move everything out then repaint the walls and wash the ceiling
possibly repainting that too.
Any ideas?
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User
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Reading this topic i noticed these effects in my own lab.
The rust-free-steel plate on my toledo has some rust spot on it and i always clean it very well after using it.
My brand new steel bars which i use for my stands are rusting like hell.
The strange thing is that they never came into direct contact with any liquid or solid what so ever.
Since i have those no burn test where performed.
And it seems like being to fast for just rusting on normal air oxidation.
What a fine day for chemistry this is.
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merrlin
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You might try tracking the humidity. Hygroscopic residues effectively increase the dew point. Warm air infiltration during the day, followed by rapid
cooling at night can give a high relative humidity, allowing dust/dirt to produce rust.
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chloric1
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WD-40 would be more pleasant than motor oil and it smells GREAT too!
It displaces water and actually assist in rust removal, diminishing the required elbow grease.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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User
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@merrlin
The typical thing is that my lab is heated and indoors.
So humidity and temp. are relatively constant.
What a fine day for chemistry this is.
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merrlin
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Quote: Originally posted by User  | @merrlin
The typical thing is that my lab is heated and indoors.
So humidity and temp. are relatively constant.
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For some compounds, moisture can be extracted from room air at normal humidity levels. See "deliquescent substances" at Wikipedia for a representative
list of substances.
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1281371269
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| Quote: Originally posted by User | @merrlin
The typical thing is that my lab is heated and indoors.
So humidity and temp. are relatively constant.
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A simple way to deal with that might be a shuttered open window and, as has been said, a deliquesent chemical (H2SO4 seems the obvious example) or a
dehumidifier.
I use GT85 for my bike which protects it from rusting as well as keeping it running smoothly. I use WD40 for my woodworking tools / machinery but the
trouble with it is that it gets sticky and attracts dust and small bits of dirt.
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