Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Chemistry laws

Chemistry laws

muriaticacid - 20-2-2008 at 18:01

hey,
I was just wondering if anybody new the federal laws in the US for experimental explosives manufacture. for example Tannerite ( a binary explosive used as a reactive target) is legal as long as you don't sell it or store it. does that mean that one can make all the explosives he/she wants as long as he/she doesn't sell it, store it , disturb the neighbors or cause destruction?

also, what can the law do to you if you obtain all your chems legally and aren't making drugs?

(I'm also kind of disturbed that i live in a time where it might be smart to ask such questions)

Sauron - 20-2-2008 at 20:54

I think you had better consult a lawyer.

The US federal explosives laws and regulations are complex and often draconian.

AFAIK anyone manufacuring explosives in any quantity large or small must have a license from ATFE to do so, and such a license will not be issued unless you have appropriate premises and appropriate secure storage. IMO that will exclude a residence or a residential area, and secure storage usually means a bunker. In addition ATFE will not issue a license unless you also comply with all local and state regulations and laws. That means city, county, and state authorities and their requirements may be more stringent than those of the ATFE.

Furthermore, an explosive DEVICE is very likely a "destructive device" as governed by the Gun Control Act of 68 (part of Omnibus Crime & Safe Streets Act) and so you may need a Destructive Device FFl as manufacturer and pay a special tax stamp annually to IRS.

I would never assume that possession of the components of a binary explosive was a legally tenable position.

In short, cover your ass.

MagicJigPipe - 24-2-2008 at 07:52

"also, what can the law do to you if you obtain all your chems legally and aren't making drugs?"

Unfortunately, this is becoming more and more dangerous. Even if you aren't doing anything wrong, if it even LOOKS like you are making drugs (especially meth) you could be looking at trouble. In some states, mere possession of 2-3 of the following is illegal: I2, Phosphorus, HI, (Pseudo)ephedrine or any analogues, Li, the means to produce NH3 etc...

I know many will disagree with me but even if you are not making drugs, if they are pissed off enough (or don't like you), they will be able to find SOMETHING illegal in almost any home lab. I came close to this happening to me. Even though there was no indication (to a smart person) that I was making meth, it was assumed that I was just because they saw my glassware. I just picked up a copy of the police report if anyone wants me to post it. It's limited but interesting. They called it, "remnants of a meth lab".

Anyway, you will be taking a risk of being chastized and persecuted no matter what kind of lab you have. Just try very hard to make it look like you are NOT making meth as much as possible. It's much easier to NOT look like you're making other drugs because their precursors are usually a lot more obscure. IMO, I would not EVER stock my medicine cabinet with psuedoephedrine containing products, if I were you. I have a feeling if I had ephedrine in my apartment that evening, I might still be in jail.

How ?

MadHatter - 24-2-2008 at 18:52

What brought the local yocals to your home to begin with ? If the law really wants your ass,
count on them getting it. A person's life can be made miserable even without a conviction.
Using a trumped-up charge, in theory, a person could be charged, forced to post bail, and endure
the public humiliation of a trial, complete with overzealous cops, politicians, and the opportunistic
buzzards in the press. All this to wreck a person's life, both financially and emotionally, possibly
physically, because that person pissed off the wrong individual or group.

BromicAcid - 24-2-2008 at 19:03

The BATF used to publish a book called the 'Orange Book' and it was available and still may be from Skylighter I think that covered explosives and their storage. Minimum quantities subject to regulation and other interesting tidbits. It is no longer 100% accurate but it is a place to start.

It really doesn't matter though. Even if the explosive itself is not regulated, if you confine it then it would still be considered a bomb. Stock it and you can be failing to store it properly, then you still have your primaries that would fall under regulation. Just as those above said, unless you are willing to get a lawyer then you shouldn't try to justify your actions with the law, they can pick apart most any defense. Though it pays to keep things as legal as possible in the event that some law enforcement agency decides to take notice of your stockpile of 10 grams of secondary. So long as you don't announce it to the world though there should be no reason they would need to.

quicksilver - 25-2-2008 at 07:00

Quote:

Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
...I know many will disagree with me but even if you are not making drugs, if they are pissed off enough (or don't like you), they will be able to find SOMETHING illegal in almost any home lab. I came close to this happening to me....

Not only do I NOT disagree....I believe that there is a reason for laws that appear superficially, to be ridiculous and asinine.

Often times legislators begin life as lawyers and evolve (slightly) through the system into their elected position. So that laws are often introduced as "padding" for a prosecution. This is where we see many draconian moves put into the works. They are there so that the Prosecution has something to bargain with and something for sentence enhancement.

Even though it's vehemently denied, the laws concerning many issues that are relevant to this discussion are vaporous and not concrete. Laws dealing with energetic materials are often changing (the orange book is VERY much out of date) and are subjective in their prosecution.
Concerning energetic materials chemistry laws, they are enforced often as a means to pad the prosecution of an existing bomb case, etc. Does that mean you CANNOT get in trouble for making M80's? Of course not. but the laws are there to boost an existing case often enough.

The State's case is as much a political and job performance agenda as it is public service; perhaps more when headlines are in question.

So what does this mean for the hobbyist? It means (IMO) that if you know the law, you won't be doing much experimenting. As most anything outside of some very, very limited experiments with energetic materials have some sort of prohibition. HOWEVER.....the enforcement of those laws are VERY subjective. Generally, if you have some real substantive background, belong to clubs and organizations, law enforcement won't have motivation to make your life miserable as prosecution would be difficult and not too productive from a political perspective. The State's motivation is often political, but mostly it's a question of whether they can win.
If, however, you can be painted as some sort of nut or terrorist....watch out!

If on the other hand, you are NOT working with energetics, then the whole world of meth-cook nightmare is available to the prosecution and that is often a much easier case to prove.
The point being, is that hobby chemistry is fraught with gray areas. This becomes even more "gray" depending upon the area in which you live.

Never forget that it's not only a federal legislation that is important but a local one that must be understood. If locally, you live in a fire-danger area, even black powder experiments can put you at risk. The Feds may not have a law dealing with hobby BP rockets; the State does. From a federal perspective the limit on black powder possession was (last time I looked) set at 50lbs w/ no license. The state may have a different number. [Federal law ALWAYS supersedes State law: except in a prosecution based locally on State statutes] So the State can prosecute you for something the Feds would not want. It all depends on who is looking at you.

Does anyone want someone with a gram of lead styphnate? It violates Federal law on the "letter of the law" basis. Would the Feds use their prosecutor for such a case? Would they use their resources to hunt down the person who makes some heavy metal azide? The chances are slim. But that does not mean you can experiment with impunity? No, you must never do anything in chemistry with impunity.

If it's NOT energetic chemistry we are talking about - THEN I would say......unless it's damn obvious that you are working with plastics....you're playing with fire.
The laws do not appear superficially, to be ridiculous and asinine: they ARE!

[Edited on 25-2-2008 by quicksilver]

MagicJigPipe - 25-2-2008 at 20:34

"How ? What brought the local yocals to your home to begin with ?"

I was in the process of moving out of my apartment (I didn't do any experiments there but simply had some glassware and 2-3 chemicals packed up) and the maintanence man used his key to get in and looked through my stuff. Then he called the cops. I thought someone broke in when I got home but I knew it was someone working for the apartment complex when I noticed all my chemistry stuff pulled out (some of it broken) and methamphetamine tests in all the chemicals and some of the beakers and flasks.

Of course, all the tests were negative but that wasn't enough for everyone. I was still a meth cook in their eyes.

Not to mention I had a pistol at the time and they were trying to act like I was a dope dealing gangster because of it.

Eldritch - 13-4-2008 at 21:14

Quote:

Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
I know many will disagree with me but even if you are not making drugs, if they are pissed off enough (or don't like you), they will be able to find SOMETHING illegal in almost any home lab. I came close to this happening to me. Even though there was no indication (to a smart person) that I was making meth, it was assumed that I was just because they saw my glassware. I just picked up a copy of the police report if anyone wants me to post it. It's limited but interesting. They called it, "remnants of a meth lab".

Anyway, you will be taking a risk of being chastized and persecuted no matter what kind of lab you have. Just try very hard to make it look like you are NOT making meth as much as possible. It's much easier to NOT look like you're making other drugs because their precursors are usually a lot more obscure. IMO, I would not EVER stock my medicine cabinet with psuedoephedrine containing products, if I were you. I have a feeling if I had ephedrine in my apartment that evening, I might still be in jail.

You'd also do well to avoid making enquiries on this site that can be traced back to you in the real world. Interesting posts on here are read by LE and archived.

Sauron - 13-4-2008 at 21:43

I would fervently hope that "LE" would have better things to do than archiving anything from this site. Thatn would have to go down as one of the most egregious wastes of taxpayer dollars I can conceive of.

Stop peddling paranoia. There's enough going round anyway without your shoveling it at high speed.

Eldritch - 14-4-2008 at 23:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
I would fervently hope that "LE" would have better things to do than archiving anything from this site. Thatn would have to go down as one of the most egregious wastes of taxpayer dollars I can conceive of.

Stop peddling paranoia. There's enough going round anyway without your shoveling it at high speed.

It's only paranoia if you don't realize that it is happening.

Sauron - 15-4-2008 at 00:29

Yeah, and tell me when Elvis gets here.

MagicJigPipe - 15-4-2008 at 09:37

I think it would be cheap to have someone look at websites all day. I know that they admitted to looking at the Hive but not to "bust" people.

I don't think they are too much in to sites like this but I certainly wouldn't boast about "criminal" activity.

I certainly wouldn't doubt if they checked up on WetDreams (what a fucking disgusting name by the way!) every now and then.

They=DEA

Th0r - 27-4-2008 at 09:54

Quote:

Originally posted by BromicAcid
The BATF used to publish a book called the 'Orange Book' and it was available and still may be from Skylighter I think that covered explosives and their storage. Minimum quantities subject to regulation and other interesting tidbits. It is no longer 100% accurate but it is a place to start.

The Orange Book was published in 1981 I believe [I could be mistaken but I am reading the books publishing details as I post]. With the Post-9/11 panic in America I would imagine the laws regarding explosives have changed a lot compared to twenty years ago...

http://members.aol.com/RocketWeb/regulate/atf/orange.htm

There you go...

The Orange Book available for viewing and HTML download...

Sauron - 27-4-2008 at 10:08

The Code of Federal Regulations is accesible. The U.S.C. is accesible. Laws and federal regulations are not secrets. They are published in the Federal Register. Most, possible all, of these are available online.

Ephoton - 28-4-2008 at 22:23

I can not see explosives being legal unless you have a license for them.

im with hatter it can realy hurt even when the stink dont stick

VTchem - 28-4-2008 at 23:52

If you are really board and want to know more I found this site that may give some insight into the authority of the feds only. You would have to look up your particular state and local laws.

There is also a federal regulation search engine that might help.

(I know the regs seem old but that was the most recent that I found, I didn't read all of it yet but I am guessing that there are amendments to the original.)

This page says that anyone who makes their own explosives for their own use does not need to have a permit or license.

[Edited on 29-4-2008 by VTchem]

[Edited on 29-4-2008 by VTchem]

[Edited on 29-4-2008 by VTchem]

MagicJigPipe - 30-4-2008 at 21:44

Regardless, if you are caught making explosives in the US or Europe you will be branded as a terrorist and thrown in prison for years if not decades. Remember, in the current social/political climate law has no bearing. If you are a "terrorist" your life is over. In a worst case scenario you may just disappear from the face of the Earth.

Can you imagine if they discovered explosives and that you looked up something on the internet that was even slightly "anti-establishment" or "anti-American"? You would be even more screwed.

joeflsts - 1-5-2008 at 02:56

Quote:

Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Regardless, if you are caught making explosives in the US or Europe you will be branded as a terrorist and thrown in prison for years if not decades. Remember, in the current social/political climate law has no bearing. If you are a "terrorist" your life is over. In a worst case scenario you may just disappear from the face of the Earth.

Can you imagine if they discovered explosives and that you looked up something on the internet that was even slightly "anti-establishment" or "anti-American"? You would be even more screwed.

I have noticed that your posts tend to be a bit alarmist in nature. Maybe you should consider another hobby because this one seems to scare the hell out of you. There are many retailers that sell materials to create explosives for the hobbyist and yet you want to paint a picture that the sky is falling.

Yes it is scrutinized and restricted hobby - sadly enough that is true, but it isn't the gestapo scenario that you propose.

Joe

Pulverulescent - 1-5-2008 at 04:05

I'm in Europe and my chems are explosive-related but I'm not running scared!

If they were to check me out, it'd be embarrassing, certainly, but luckily I have no links to any organisation (present company excepted) of any kind.

And it certainly doesn't keep me awake at night!

'Slightly OT, but why does American LE lump alcohol and tobacco, two pleasure-giving substances with weaponry!

Are guns, (lethal weapons!) seen in the same light as booze'n'fags!

P

Pulverulescent - 1-5-2008 at 04:20

I know, the knee-jerk response is they all kill, but it's like the Bureau of Sports-wear, Karaoke-equipment and Thermo-nuclear devices!

P

7he3ngineer - 1-5-2008 at 06:04

Quote:

I'm in Europe and my chems are explosive-related but I'm not running scared!

If they were to check me out, it'd be embarrassing, certainly, but luckily I have no links to any organisation (present company excepted) of any kind.

And it certainly doesn't keep me awake at night!

That's it... all a question of attitude!

My neighbour had his house done over a couple of years ago (but with due reason!) and joked at the time that it was just one way of getting your house catalogued

Josh

Sauron - 1-5-2008 at 20:40

The ATFE started out as a branch of the Internal Revenue Service of the Treasury Department, collecting federal taxes on alcohol and tobacco and chasing anyone who didn't want to pay. You still hear backwoods hillbillies in the southeast talking about "revenooers" and the same office included Eliot Ness and his Untouchables in Chicago during Prohibition, who nailed Al Capone for tax evasion.

During the lawlessness of the 1930s, the National Firearms Act was passed as a result of the use of LE-owned Thompsons by strikebreakers against union organizers in Georgia. This law mandated a federal tax, designed to be prohibitively high, on automatic weapons, and IRS got the job of enforcing this. The task devolved to the Alcohol & Tobacco Tax Division.

For a look at how these guys operated in the 1950s, see THUNDER ROAD, a Robert Mitchum movie written by my old pal James Atlee Phillips.

In 1968 after the RFK assassination the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed and ATTD became ATF, an independent Treasury Bureau bureaucratically equal to Secret Service, IRS, and Customs, the other Treasury law enforcement agencies. (Another, the Bureau of Narcotics, was being transferred to Justice Dept. where it became the DEA). Over the next decade, ATF acquired a less than savory reputation for heavy handedness and abuse, so much so that the Reagan presidential campaign had as a plank in its platform the destruction of the ATF and passing of its enforcement responsibilities to the FBI and Secret Service. But for various reasons this failed to happen.

Part of the same Act also created a new category of regulated "firearm", destructive devices. This was a catch-all that included cannon, mortars, mines, grenades, etc. as well as improvized explosive devices (pipe bombs etc.). Somewhere along the way ATF acquired arson enforcement responsibiliuty and that for the federal explosives laws. So eventually in the reshuffle that created the Department of Homeland Security, or perhaps even earlier, ATF became ATFE and it is now under DHS.

I hope that explains why booze & fags are bundled up with lethal weapons in the USA. It all has to do with tax laws and that is about the only way the feds could get their mittens into these things, legislatively.

MagicJigPipe - 1-5-2008 at 21:58

Quote:

Where do you live? I will admit that much of my statement was in jest. However, it is quickly becoming the "gestapo" scenario you propose. If it wasn't, people who weren't doing anything wrong would have NOTHING to worry about. That is not the case, obviously.

Perhaps it is you who is on the other extreme thinking that nothing like that ever happens, everything is hunky doory and as long as you don't plan on killing anybody, you're okay. That's just plain wrong.

Mass hysteria is a powerful thing. Obviously, you do not live in the US or you would see what everyone else is seeing. The sky IS falling. YOU can go stand out in the open. I value my so called freedom too much for that.

Another thing. Have you ever been the victim of this hysteria induced gestapo-ness? No? I have. That is why I preach as I do. Because I know that it can happen to anyone and that I was only an inch from being thrown in prison for NOTHING. The hysteria over terrorism is even worse than with drugs.

And your basis for all this is that retailers sell things that can be used to make explosives. WTF? You go ahead and make explosives. And when you get caught, just say you aren't a terrorist. See if they believe you. But you're not in the US so that point is almost moot.

[Edited on 5-2-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Pulverulescent - 2-5-2008 at 04:14

Thanks for that, Sauron.
The question was partly rhetorical and I knew it was to do with political expediency.
It's nice to see it all explained so concisely and in such detail, though!

Regulation of chemicals in Ireland is fairly lax compared with that in the US.
Small mercies, though!

P

Sauron - 2-5-2008 at 04:40

Well, Erin go bragh.

My family name has been anglicized but in Gaelic it is Brannag. Norman of course. The anglicized form of the name under various spellings is one of the most common in Ireland (fourth or fifth as I recall.)

One of my good friends is a process engineer at Pfizer in County Cork.

[Edited on 2-5-2008 by Sauron]

joeflsts - 2-5-2008 at 05:35

Quote:

Originally posted by MagicJigPipe

Quote:

Not only am I in the US I'm in one of the most restrictive States. I made my point - you should find another hobby.

Joe

MagicJigPipe - 2-5-2008 at 06:38

Sorry, I reject your advice. Not going to happen. That's my whole set of principles. Don't stop doing what you love just because most people think it's wrong and the government is "out to get you".

It might be one of the main reasons I will continue. Spite, if you will. Well, it wasn't at first. But now it seems like it is becoming that reason whether I like it or not.

Pulverulescent - 2-5-2008 at 07:30

Attaboy!

P

joeflsts - 2-5-2008 at 12:22

Quote:

Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Sorry, I reject your advice. Not going to happen. That's my whole set of principles. Don't stop doing what you love just because most people think it's wrong and the government is "out to get you".

It might be one of the main reasons I will continue. Spite, if you will. Well, it wasn't at first. But now it seems like it is becoming that reason whether I like it or not.

Good for you!

New FEL application

applesandoranges - 20-3-2014 at 17:59

Hey all, while I'm getting my lab together for EM I wanted to be compliant also. I'm submitting an application to the BATFE for a explosives manufacturing license. Being in Pennsylvania, I can't meet any of the siting/theft protection rules without seriously breaking the piggy except for type 4 and type 3 magazines. They are far and away more involved than the federal rules. But only display fireworks in the type 4. So that leaves me with attended storage for anything explosive and destroy anything before I walk away. That's cool with me because I'm really only studying these things and I want the applied side with the theoretical. I can work within the rules to pursue these legally. So my question is, will any agents care that I'm applying for a manufacturing license with only a type 3? And also, what is it like trying to comply with the clean water act?

roXefeller - 4-5-2014 at 05:43

Yeah you'll have heartburn. there is an unwritten guidance by higher supervisors that long term unattended storage is needed. And they like to assume that if they feel it is inconvenient that the law will be broken for convenience. Types 1 2 4 5 are the norm.

aga - 19-5-2014 at 16:12

Legal, illegal ?

Nobody really knows until a Case comes before a Court, and a decision is made.

Be nice, and play sensibly.

Pay taxes, try not to hurt or bother anyone.

If you get it all wrong, they'll tell you exactly which bit was illegal when they catch you.

roXefeller - 20-7-2014 at 18:01

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Nobody really knows until a Case comes before a Court, and a decision is made.

Definitely the case since we now operate a legislative system of judicial precedence. Since legislation is moving to make power-abusing laws the only way that things get changed (assuming politicians can't be unseated) is to argue the point in court and set a precedent that overwrites the law. Unfortunately that requires the power of money and/or media in order to stand up to the lengthy proceedings that will follow indictments/suits. If you get caught playing on the noncompliant side, don't say anything that makes you sound agressive, then make plea deals, but expect to give a pound of flesh on your way out. Unless you have the time and money to be innocent...