Sciencemadness Discussion Board

FBI Call: Need to Vent

VSEPR_VOID - 22-10-2018 at 12:35

I think that most of us hear about other members of SM getting investigated for their hobby. Today one of those people was me. I got a call from an agent with the FBI who is connected with an anti-terro unit. My requisition of acetone and 3% hydrogen peroxide was noticed and they had questions.

I am not doing anything wrong. I do not make bombs, mortars, or any explosive devices. I do not manufacture elicit substances. But I am sure that if they thought I was my life would be made difficult and my lab raided. That thought scares me. I am sure that if every single detail of my life was checked, just like everyone else, they could fine something to make a big mess over:A incorrect forum for one of the licence I hold, some time I did not pay tax after a garage sale, or some political comment from 4 years ago.

Another aspect that shocks me is that it was from hydrogen peroxide and acetone. Strategically thinking its silly to investigate such things. Everyone has those two items in there house and I did not requisition tons of it. In addition the complaint was from months ago. In retrospect, they suspected me of being a potential terrorist for owning common chemicals, in normal amounts, several months ago. Its ridiculous. Its a joke.

As a side note: The FBI agent was very polite and reasonable. I have not complaint about the personnel, but it seems like the system is broken. If a good person can be singled out for a love of chemistry, we are all just waiting for our turn on the chopping block of national security.

fusso - 22-10-2018 at 13:17

Why would you answer that phone call from unknown people? Did you know it was an agent before answering the call? Did the phone number show up on your phone?

Heptylene - 22-10-2018 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  
My requisition of acetone and 3% hydrogen peroxide was noticed and they had questions.


What do you mean by that? That you bought these two things online? How did they find out?

diddi - 22-10-2018 at 14:32

in au customs notify appropriate agency. i would imagine a similar procedure is in place elsewhere

WGTR - 22-10-2018 at 17:16

Well, technically this was an investigative success. Most normal people don't buy acetone and hydrogen peroxide together. Based on your purchase you were successfully identified as a person of interest, and as it turns out, you are an amateur chemist, not Betty Homemaker. What else can an amateur chemist do? Build bombs, of course!

Unfortunately, there aren't very many amateur chemists, but there are thankfully even fewer terrorist bomb-makers. It's unfortunate that the buying patterns of these two very different types of individuals can overlap at times. Try not to take it too personally. Hopefully from their short conversation with you, they were able to determine that you were no threat.

If they thought that you were doing something truly terrorism-related I don't think they would've called you on the phone, in my opinion. In fact, you would've had no clue that you were being investigated at all. And if they deemed you likely to be doing something significantly shady, once they got enough information about you and your associates, the first contact you'd have with them would be when a dozen masked guys with automatic weapons swarmed you as you left the grocery store some random day.

No one would know where you were being held, not even your lawyer. And your little cat would never be seen again.

VSEPR_VOID - 22-10-2018 at 18:21

Quote: Originally posted by fusso  
Why would you answer that phone call from unknown people? Did you know it was an agent before answering the call? Did the phone number show up on your phone?


I have family in law enforcement and they were notified out of processional courtesy. I also have some articles written about me for some science awards so that tipped him off too. He offered to come out yo my lab but I declined. Liters of HCl and lots of glassware tends to scare people, even if most of the times its for making copper salts.

I made sure to ask if I had to worry about a dozen masked guys with automatic weapons swatting me, he said not to. Still, that sort of thing terrifies me. I could not imagine being black bagged and taken away from my lab, books, and work. Even worse would be if they found some reason to charge me for some little technicality like, "you had 3 grams of wet picric acid, which is over the legal limit of 2.5".

I make some energetic compounds: Picric acid, tetramine copper (II) nitrate, hexamine diperchlorate, but never have made bombs or anything very dangerous. I am sure that other SM members have made these or flash powders before. We think of them as mundane little pyrotechnics one makes for fun and then never touches again, but to the public the seem like an exotic hazard.

macckone - 22-10-2018 at 20:10

There are all sorts of little hang ups in the law.

Manufacture of explosives without a license. - generally a local offense unless selling or transporting.
Improper storage of explosives. - always a federal offense but may be a local offense as well.
Depending on locality, they can also get you on zoning violations as well.

I was once threatend with 10 years in jail over a glass bottle of acetone.
Improper storage of a flammable liquid in a multifamily dwelling.
Literally a bottle of fingernail polish remover belonging to my girlfriend.
All over a noise complaint from the cop next door.
I was not doing chemistry outside of class at the time.

Consult a lawyer, verify everything is properly labelled and stored.
Consult the magazine requirements on explosives.
It is almost guaranteed you are out of compliance.
Note specifically that picric acid is considered an explosive in the US rather wet or not unless you can prove it is for other uses. Also any nitrate or perchlorate compound or mixture that will explode is considered an explosive unless specifically for use in rocket motors.

PS. attached current ATF explosives list.

[Edited on 23-10-2018 by macckone]

Attachment: notice-943_0.pdf (40kB)
This file has been downloaded 726 times

Texium - 22-10-2018 at 20:39

Did you buy hydrogen peroxide and acetone at the same time, at the same store? Because if you did, I'd say you were asking for it. It's not a matter of what the chemicals are, but the context in which they were bought. If that's what you did, the context looks shady indeed. I've bought large amounts of each of those chemicals over the past few years, but never at the same time. Never had any problems.

Mr. Rogers - 22-10-2018 at 21:55

Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

I was once threatend with 10 years in jail over a glass bottle of acetone.


Can you elaborate on this? I've heard about the "acetone in a glass bottle" thing before but I don't understand what this is about.

VSEPR_VOID - 22-10-2018 at 23:40

Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
There are all sorts of little hang ups in the law.

Manufacture of explosives without a license. - generally a local offense unless selling or transporting.
Improper storage of explosives. - always a federal offense but may be a local offense as well.
Depending on locality, they can also get you on zoning violations as well.

I was once threatend with 10 years in jail over a glass bottle of acetone.
Improper storage of a flammable liquid in a multifamily dwelling.
Literally a bottle of fingernail polish remover belonging to my girlfriend.
All over a noise complaint from the cop next door.
I was not doing chemistry outside of class at the time.

Consult a lawyer, verify everything is properly labelled and stored.
Consult the magazine requirements on explosives.
It is almost guaranteed you are out of compliance.
Note specifically that picric acid is considered an explosive in the US rather wet or not unless you can prove it is for other uses. Also any nitrate or perchlorate compound or mixture that will explode is considered an explosive unless specifically for use in rocket motors.

PS. attached current ATF explosives list.

[Edited on 23-10-2018 by macckone]


Its insane you can get in trouble for having urea nitrate. Its insane the any of those substances are considered criminal.

I do not feel like I live in a free country anymore, I feel like a hostage. Its not right that amateur scientists are harassed because of bottles of acetone and picric acid. Picric acid was used as a dye for 100 years before anyone found out it could be made into explosives.

I grantee that 90% of the population at this point commits some sort of felony in the course of everyday life. Make a potato gun, ATF swats you for manufacturing mortars. Have a collection of elements, you must be manufacturing chemical weapons.

phlogiston - 23-10-2018 at 00:44

On the contrary, in this day and age, the authoritites are not doing their job if they do not investigate any order of significant amounts (Liters) of hydrogen peroxide and acetone together.
It apparatenly does in your country. Their investigation also seems entirely reasonable so far.

Indeed, probably none of us lives in a really free country. Lets hope, however, that we retain enough of the remaining freedom in the future to allow for amateur chemistry to exist.

Herr Haber - 23-10-2018 at 04:59

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR  
Well, technically this was an investigative success. Most normal people don't buy acetone and hydrogen peroxide together.


So why would they put it on the same shelf at the hardware store litterally for decades ?
Yes, it's quite normal to get Acetone, H2O2 and whatever if you have a hobby that requires them. I never mixed the two, you can see my opinion on TATP all over the forum and yet I've had - and still have - a bottle of Acetone and another one of H2O2 under the kitchen sink.
Why ? Because I've been doing that for DECADES before Breivik.
I'd spend the afternoon thinking about all the uses of acetone. H2O2 a little less. Interestingly I've used it by the gallons to sterilize growing media ages ago. So yeah, I do have perfectly legit uses for both and I'm not a yearling that just discovered TATP.

Texium - 23-10-2018 at 05:24

Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  
I do not feel like I live in a free country anymore, I feel like a hostage. Its not right that amateur scientists are harassed because of bottles of acetone and picric acid. Picric acid was used as a dye for 100 years before anyone found out it could be made into explosives.
Oh, boo hoo. You got one visit, they let you go without even searching your lab, and you're still free to get back on the internet and whine about it. A hostage? Really?! Taking this attitude where we act victimized and defensive over practically nothing doesn't help the case of amateur chemists at all. It's quite detrimental. Oh, and since you ignored my last question, I'm assuming you did buy both of the items at the same time.
Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by WGTR  
Well, technically this was an investigative success. Most normal people don't buy acetone and hydrogen peroxide together.
So why would they put it on the same shelf at the hardware store litterally for decades ?
Um, no. Have you really seen hydrogen peroxide and acetone "literally" on the same shelf? No hardware store I've been to has ever put them in the same section, because their uses are entirely disparate, as they should be in the lab as well! This is just more dishonest confabulation that makes the situation seem more dramatic and unfair than it is.

[Edited on 10-23-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

Herr Haber - 23-10-2018 at 07:50

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
Um, no. Have you really seen hydrogen peroxide and acetone "literally" on the same shelf? No hardware store I've been to has ever put them in the same section, because their uses are entirely disparate, as they should be in the lab as well! This is just more dishonest confabulation that makes the situation seem more dramatic and unfair than it is.

[Edited on 10-23-2018 by Texium (zts16)]


Um, yes.
I said the exact opposite. Would you be calling me a liar ?
Why would I have filed not one but two complaints over the years at customer service. Obviously not since the last 5 years...
Last time I mentioned it, they even pointed me to the automatic fire extinguishers behind the bottles.

Acetone, white spirit, HCL, H202 have always been in the same section of every hardware store I visited.

I wonder why someone would put paint solvents and a chemical to bleach wood in the same section. Maybe trying to make life easier for carpenters and cabinet makers ?
(that must be why the brushes and nut based dye are also in the same section...)


It was a nice first chat ZTS, I really really like being called dishonest. :mad:

Texium - 23-10-2018 at 08:35

I'm sorry- I wouldn't have expected stores to actually stock all of those chemicals together. In my experience I've seen solvents like acetone, DCM, toluene, etc in the paint section, while things like conc. peroxide, HCl, TCCA, are on the other side of the store with the pool stuff, and sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide are in another aisle with the plumbing supplies. I assume that hardware stores throughout the US are similarly stocked, though I suppose this may not be the case in other countries.

In your first post it sure didn't sound like you were against putting the two chemicals on the same shelf. It sounded like you were defending the practice, so how would I have known that you filed complaints? My only point was that stocking acetone and peroxide on the same shelf is dumb, and as far as I knew up until now, I assumed that it was not something that stores actually did.

Really sorry about the misunderstanding.

VSEPR_VOID - 23-10-2018 at 09:09

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
I'm sorry- I wouldn't have expected stores to actually stock all of those chemicals together. In my experience I've seen solvents like acetone, DCM, toluene, etc in the paint section, while things like conc. peroxide, HCl, TCCA, are on the other side of the store with the pool stuff, and sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide are in another aisle with the plumbing supplies. I assume that hardware stores throughout the US are similarly stocked, though I suppose this may not be the case in other countries.

In your first post it sure didn't sound like you were against putting the two chemicals on the same shelf. It sounded like you were defending the practice, so how would I have known that you filed complaints? My only point was that stocking acetone and peroxide on the same shelf is dumb, and as far as I knew up until now, I assumed that it was not something that stores actually did.

Really sorry about the misunderstanding.


They are stocked together on the same shelf at the dollar store near me. I dont think anything of buying them together, because they are normal chemicals I plan to use legally.

Texium - 23-10-2018 at 10:15

I stand by my statement that that's a poor decision.

Mr. Rogers - 23-10-2018 at 11:54

Bump for acetone in glass bottle explanation.

arkoma - 23-10-2018 at 12:16

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
Did you buy hydrogen peroxide and acetone at the same time, at the same store? Because if you did, I'd say you were asking for it. It's not a matter of what the chemicals are, but the context in which they were bought. If that's what you did, the context looks shady indeed. I've bought large amounts of each of those chemicals over the past few years, but never at the same time. Never had any problems.



Bought them both together at the Dollar General in Lewisville, Arkansas. Multiple bottles of each. They don't even bat an eye. At least you dont have the FDLE breathing down your neck ( I gather you are a Southern Peninsular state resident from your pinterest account)

Tsjerk - 23-10-2018 at 12:23

Buying from a hardware store selling acetone / hydrogen peroxide from one shelf? No problem... Ordering the two nowadays from any online shop where the FBI had the power to make them report it... Not so smart.

learningChem - 23-10-2018 at 19:07

Quote:

I do not feel like I live in a free country anymore


Well it was about time because the USA was never a free country.

You live in a police state. Think about that.

---------

as to people commenting on the timing of the purchases and whether there's a problem buying both acetone and h2o2 at the same time? What the hell? Are you seriously suggesting that any real 'terrist' would be stupid enough to do that? And implying that if you buy the two compounds at different times then you won't be bothered? Which is another clear absurdity if you follow the 'logic' of the government criminals, sorry 'public servants'.


[Edited on 24-10-2018 by learningChem]

macckone - 23-10-2018 at 19:48

Mr Rogers:

The fire code prohibits the storage of more than a certain amount of a flammable liquid in a glass container in a multifamily dwelling. Fingernail polish remover (aka acetone) was sold in glass bottles. I don't think they sell it that way anymore. I only see it in plastic or metal. I don't remember what the exact amount was. It is in the fire code, which I have on my laptop somewhere. There are all kinds of little rules that carry serious jail time if they enforce them. I beat the charge but not the ride.

There are exceptions for food and beverages. But otherwise you can't store flammable liquids in glass bottles over a certain size. And there are also limits on the total in plastic and metal containers as well. Some of this can be adjusted higher if you have a certified flammable liquid storage cabinet.

The NFPA has a complete set of codes for storing flammable liquids and chemicals and if you aren't following it, you can be charged with criminal violations.

macckone - 23-10-2018 at 20:16

NFPA 30 FAQ - last question is about commercial laboratories.

NFPA 45 - Laboratories

Table 10.1.4 storage in glass containers:
Class 1A liquids are limited to 500ml
Class 1B liquids are limited to 1L
Class 1C liquids are limited to 4L
Class 2 liquids are limited to 4L
Class 3 liquids are limited to 20L

There is an exception for plastic coated glass bottles up to 4L where purity is critical.

Under NFPA 30:
Medicine and beverages are exempted up to 5L.
Certain products packaged for consumer goods are also exempted.
class 1C and 2 are raised to 5L.

There are also requirements for flammable solids and maximum amounts.

Attachment: 30_A2017_FLC-FUN_FD_CIStatements.pdf (618kB)
This file has been downloaded 642 times

Mr. Rogers - 23-10-2018 at 21:12

Macckone, thank you.

I'm wondering where the 10 years in prison comes from? These seem like commerical/occupational requirements.

The acetone I buy comes in glass bottles. I'm wondering if I'm violating the law by not transferring the acetone immediately into other containers???

The common wisdom is to keep your chemicals in the original containers. This is why I'm very confused by this.

I think glass is ideal for storing acetone. I pay extra for getting it glass bottles.


[Edited on 24-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

Sulaiman - 24-10-2018 at 00:16

I think that containers are chosen for cost and and safe shipping more than long term storage,
e.g. I have received
. conc. sulphuric acid in hdpe bottles, that I transferred to glass bottles,
. many dry chemicals in PE zip-lock bags, that I transferred to HDPE or glass bottles

if I just bought sufficient chemicals for well planned experiments then the shipping containers could be used as storage containers
but as I always buy in (sometimes massive) excess for stock and 'economy',
and I rarely stick to my plans,
I've transferred quite a few chemicals from their shipping containers to containers more suitable for long term storage.

... starting chemistry means starting to collect containers :D


DrP - 24-10-2018 at 02:14

Quote: Originally posted by learningChem  
Quote:

I do not feel like I live in a free country anymore


Well it was about time because the USA was never a free country.

You live in a police state. Think about that.

[Edited on 24-10-2018 by learningChem]


Surely it is better to have stuff like this checked by the authorities? They spot you have the means to make explosives - they call, check and realise that you are not making explosive but just a chemistry enthusiast and move on. It is good to know these things are being checked so that people that actually ARE thinking of making explosives for terrorists have less chance of being successful due to the checks put in place.

Maybe I am being naieve or a bit gullible - but surely police checks on such things have to be a good thing. You should embrace their visits and wotrk with them and educate them as to what and why you do your things - even offer help and advice to them if they need info regarding other 'busts' or investigations they are planning.... if you act all rebellious and cynical with them they will be more likely to suspect that your intentions aren't right.

If your intentions AREN'T right - then go FBI! They need to catch people who are wanting to make stuff for ill purposes..... lol although, as you can walk into a store and buy an automatic rifle in some states with no ID or background checks I would think a few grams of explosive made by some kid in his garage would be irrelevant. lol.

Herr Haber - 24-10-2018 at 03:51

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
Really sorry about the misunderstanding.


It happens, water through the condenser. English is not my first language and I know I'm sometimes misunderstood ;)

Hardware store in EU are definitely different.
I havent seen H2SO4 in a store for a long long time. You can probably get the 20 or 37% electrolyte in motor shops though.
NaOH prills ? Gone from all the major retailers. Dont ask them if they have Toluene. Everybody seems to think it's forbidden (it's not). Pool supplies is a very sad section.
For OTC chemicals like TCCA Amazon is a better option.

You can still find what you need from specialized shop (art supplies shops have so much more than just pigments!).

But yeah, until a few years ago you could find your DIY TATP kit on the same shelf (or maybe the one below).
I have a particularly strong bias against this EM because of this.

But that's not all that bad. You'd have cringed at what I saw in Spain 30 years ago.
Ammonia and Nitric acid sitting on the same shelf, labels barely readable through the growing mass of cristals.
But that was 30 years ago when you could still get potassium chlorate as a medicine for the throat :)

macckone - 24-10-2018 at 04:39

Mr. Rogers:
The same violation in a business is treated much more severely in an apartment complex.
Often these laws have a range of punishment and can be treated as misdemeanor or felony.
As for storage, ACS grade is considered to have glass necessary for purity. Also a plastic coated bottle is treated differently. Items are often shipped in improper packaging because no one checks.

learningChem - 30-10-2018 at 10:22

Quote:
Surely it is better to have stuff like this checked by the authorities?


No it isn't
Quote:
people that actually ARE thinking of making explosives for terrorists


You mean thought criminals? Maybe you'd want your masters to read every thought every person has? They are working on it.
Quote:

Maybe I am being naieve or a bit gullible


more than a bit
Quote:
but surely police checks on such things have to be a good thing.

But they aren't.
Quote:
You should embrace their visits


Why should you embrace the violation of your fundamental rights?


Quote:
although, as you can walk into a store and buy an automatic rifle in some states with no ID or background checks I would think a few grams of explosive made by some kid in his garage would be irrelevant. lol.


Right. So that's one counterargument for your "embrace the police state" position. There are a lot more.



[Edited on 30-10-2018 by learningChem]

fusso - 30-10-2018 at 10:38

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
But yeah, until a few years ago you could find your DIY TATP kit on the same shelf (or maybe the one below).
I have a particularly strong bias against this EM because of this.
What?! No wonder H2O2 is so fricking hard to find these days. Those who made these kits are fricking definitely agent provocateurs that made governments ban/restrict H2O2!!!:mad:

morganbw - 30-10-2018 at 12:04

I suspect it was family trying to shake some sense into you.
You have posted attempting a bunch of crap synths that imply that you are looking beyond the line.
Just my thoughts, always look in the mirror first.

Texium - 30-10-2018 at 18:28

@learningChem: Maybe sometime try to actually construct a refutation instead of a string of dismissive one-liners and misused Orwellian phrases.

VSEPR_VOID - 30-10-2018 at 19:14

Quote: Originally posted by DrP  
although, as you can walk into a store and buy an automatic rifle in some states with no ID or background checks I would think a few grams of explosive made by some kid in his garage would be irrelevant. lol.



I dont know here you heard that. Automatic weapons (that means firing multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger) require federal permits and background checks. There is no way you can just buy some. They are class III fire arms (machine guns). There are no states where you can just buy a firearm without any sort of paperwork, unless in some states if it is a gift.

Herr Haber - 31-10-2018 at 04:00

@Fusso: it was a figure of speech.
Putting all reagents on the same shelf seemed to be... criminal.

DrP - 31-10-2018 at 04:17

Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID  
Quote: Originally posted by DrP  
although, as you can walk into a store and buy an automatic rifle in some states with no ID or background checks I would think a few grams of explosive made by some kid in his garage would be irrelevant. lol.



I dont know here you heard that. Automatic weapons (that means firing multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger) require federal permits and background checks. There is no way you can just buy some. They are class III fire arms (machine guns). There are no states where you can just buy a firearm without any sort of paperwork, unless in some states if it is a gift.


Sorry - my mistake - I mean firearms in general - I thought you could just buy a hand gun, a revolver or something, in a shop with out ID in some places.


My original point though was that it was a good idea for the authorities to check on things due to the reality that some people do want to make explosives to do harm to others in society... if you have nothing to hide then help them out as best as you can - offer to help on other cases so they can tell the difference between someone like you, who is legally experimenting with stuff and someone who just wants to blow shit up and eventually make a bomb to use in a terrorist situation. If you ain't doing that then help them out... if you ARE doing that then I hope they catch you before you kill anyone. ;-)


Regards,

P.

fusso - 31-10-2018 at 05:25

Those who support crimializing thought crimes, preventive detention, "nothing to hide" theory, cops infringing human rights & privacy, and/or police/nanny state govs are libtards and shouldn't exist. Period.

DrP - 31-10-2018 at 05:55

Quote: Originally posted by learningChem  
Quote:
Surely it is better to have stuff like this checked by the authorities?


No it isn't
Quote:
people that actually ARE thinking of making explosives for terrorists


You mean thought criminals? Maybe you'd want your masters to read every thought every person has? They are working on it.
Quote:

Maybe I am being naieve or a bit gullible


more than a bit
Quote:
but surely police checks on such things have to be a good thing.

But they aren't.
Quote:
You should embrace their visits


Why should you embrace the violation of your fundamental rights?


Quote:
although, as you can walk into a store and buy an automatic rifle in some states with no ID or background checks I would think a few grams of explosive made by some kid in his garage would be irrelevant. lol.


Right. So that's one counterargument for your "embrace the police state" position. There are a lot more.



[Edited on 30-10-2018 by learningChem]




I'm not talking about thought crime... what is your problem? People actually DO make explosives to kill others with. This is illegal for good reason. Investigations and laws banning dangerous substances are there to try to prevent this sort of thing from happening. How else are they going to catch these people that are planning to bomb others? I say help them out - after all we all want people that are going to place a bomb somewhere in society caught no? If you help them then they might start to differentiate between hobbyists and people with ill intent... if you start getting all defensive and defiant then it makes you look a lot more guilty than you are.

How is it a 'fundamental right' to be able to make explosives at home anyway? You DO want these people caught and locked up. You DON'T want to get locked up yourself because of the ignorance of the authorities.... thus my suggestion of helping/educating them. The ignorance of the police is a different issue if they want to lock you up for being a hobbyist then imo that is wrong.... if they want to investigate you because of genuine concerns then why not?

Quote: Originally posted by fusso  
Those who support crimializing thought crimes, preventive detention, "nothing to hide" theory, cops infringing human rights & privacy, and/or police/nanny state govs are libtards and shouldn't exist. Period.



Police checks on people suspected of making explosives is not a nanny state. People DO make bombs for ill intent. How are they to catch such people if they don't investigate?






[Edited on 31-10-2018 by DrP]

arkoma - 31-10-2018 at 10:51

Please simmer down mates-----these kind of threads can get ugly fast, as most of us have fairly polarized beliefs in right/wrong and what the authorities SHOULD be able/not able to do.

Arkoma

*EDIT* VESPR was just venting about his experience, and now this thread is getting political. That never ever ever turns out well here. Thank You

[Edited on 10-31-2018 by arkoma]

j_sum1 - 31-10-2018 at 21:36

I will add to arkoma's comment that interaction with the police is very regional-specific and is highly dependent on the culture and particular police policies and practices.

Around here it seems the best approach seems to be welcoming and cooperative. I don't think that is always the case in the US.

Mr. Rogers - 1-11-2018 at 04:11

For people outside the US -

There are federal firearms regulations and states and localities can further regulate them. You can certainly buy an automatic weapon in a "store", but the TL;DR is they sell for very high prices (think E-Class Mercedes) and are very heavily regulated. There's a finite supply of weapons in this class that are available to purchase due to cut-off dates that grandfathered certain automatic weapons. That's an oversimplification of some very complex laws but I think that conveys the gist of the issue.

An AR-15 style rifle commonly available in the civilian market is not an automatic weapon or a machine gun.

The media has some big hangup with this and just can't get the terminology correct. Anything that doesn't have wood in it's construction and uses a magazine is "machine gun". Facts don't seem to apply to reporting on gun issues here.

[Edited on 1-11-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

learningChem - 9-11-2018 at 23:45

Quote:
Maybe sometime try to actually construct a refutation instead of a string of dismissive one-liners and misused Orwellian phrases.



My comments are flawless. I'm sorry if you are desperate to ignore the fact that you live in a orwellian police state.

Quote:
How is it a 'fundamental right' to be able to make explosives at home anyway?


It is an application of the fundamental rights to liberty and property. To do with your time and property as you wish. I hope I helped you understand how your most basic rights work. You're welcome.





Herr Haber - 12-11-2018 at 05:10

What comes over first when distilling posts:

Ego or passive-agressiveness ?

j_sum1 - 12-11-2018 at 05:56

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
What comes over first when distilling posts:

Ego or passive-agressiveness ?

I think it is an azeotrope of the two. And one that can be hard to break. :P

DrP - 14-11-2018 at 08:12

Quote: Originally posted by learningChem  

Quote:
How is it a 'fundamental right' to be able to make explosives at home anyway?


It is an application of the fundamental rights to liberty and property. To do with your time and property as you wish. I hope I helped you understand how your most basic rights work. You're welcome.






I am pretty sure it isn't a fundamental right to be able to build a bomb at home. Unless you consider it a fundamental right to be allowed to break the law.

Texium - 14-11-2018 at 08:15

Quote: Originally posted by DrP  
Quote: Originally posted by learningChem  

Quote:
How is it a 'fundamental right' to be able to make explosives at home anyway?


It is an application of the fundamental rights to liberty and property. To do with your time and property as you wish. I hope I helped you understand how your most basic rights work. You're welcome.






I am pretty sure it isn't a fundamental right to be able to build a bomb at home. Unless you consider it a fundamental right to be allowed to break the law.
Ok– let's not do this again, please.

[Edited on 11-14-2018 by Texium (zts16)]

DrP - 14-11-2018 at 08:37

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
Ok– let's not do this again, please.




I agree - I wanted to make the point though. I don't really want to spend 1 whole page discussing it and defending it - it isn't legal to build bombs as far as I'm aware in the USA and I would therefore argue that no-one has any 'right' to under the law. The other discussion was more to do with the other guy using a different definition of the word 'right' to what I know and use.

If you think I am wrong Tex then delete this or move it to the other thread in detritus- I would be surprised though - Clearly you do not have the 'right' to build a bomb in your house in the USA and if you get caught doing so I would expect that the penalty is quite severe. I wouldn't know. I just didn't want to leave that statement unchallenged. Regardless of what people 'feel' should be a right or not - it isn't a right as far as I know. I stand to be corrected.


Edit by moderator : Fixed broken quote

[Edited on 11-14-2018 by gdflp]

Jackson - 14-11-2018 at 09:32

You cannot build a bomb, but depending on your locality and/or what licenses you have, you can make fireworks and explosives. I am pretty sure a bomb denotes an explosive device designed to cause harm to others. Also, how did this thread turn into a gigantic debate about rights and what you can or cannot do? Im relatively here and I dont want other new members to be pushed away by these kinds of arguments.

JJay - 14-11-2018 at 17:49

It is perfectly legal to build a bomb on private property in most of the U.S. Of course, most of the U.S. lies outside of major metropolitan areas and their bothersome zoning codes, fire regulations, definitions of criminal mischief, and so forth.

DrP - 15-11-2018 at 01:56

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
It is perfectly legal to build a bomb on private property in most of the U.S.


Cool - so you DO have the right to build a bomb then.... Presumably then there are no worries about having explosive precursors in your house when the police come then as they are perfectly legal - no problem.

Mr. Rogers - 15-11-2018 at 04:16

The ATF considers a bomb to be a "destructive device" no matter where in the US you are. This would require licensing to do legally - ie. a munitions manufacturer.

We should probably be more precise in the terminology here. A "bomb" is a munition dropped from an aircraft. A "pipe bomb", "mail bomb", etc. are Improvised Explosive Devices (IED).

JJay - 15-11-2018 at 04:28

"Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use (e.g., making fireworks to set off on your own property or mixing binary explosive components to remove a stump in your own yard) are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person holds a license or permit."

https://www.atf.gov/explosives

Herr Haber - 15-11-2018 at 04:29

Could you guys be kind enought to yourselves and your hobby by using the apropriate words as Jackson pointed out ?

At the beginning there was no mention of a bomb.
Making a bomb and making explosives are two different things.

I'll always be against the first one because building a bomb means you intent to hurt someone or their property.
Explosives on the other hand have many other more interesting uses.

Mr. Rogers - 15-11-2018 at 04:38

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
"Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use (e.g., making fireworks to set off on your own property or mixing binary explosive components to remove a stump in your own yard) are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person holds a license or permit."

https://www.atf.gov/explosives


Fireworks aren't bombs and neither does something explosive need to be a bomb.

JJay - 15-11-2018 at 04:39

The problem is not whether such and such explosive device is a bomb or not. It's a bomb.

Mr. Rogers - 15-11-2018 at 04:42

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
The problem is not whether such and such explosive device is a bomb or not. It's a bomb.


Not according to the law.

JJay - 15-11-2018 at 04:42

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
"Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use (e.g., making fireworks to set off on your own property or mixing binary explosive components to remove a stump in your own yard) are not required to have a manufacturer’s license. However, no person may ship, transport, cause to be transported, or receive explosive materials unless such person holds a license or permit."

https://www.atf.gov/explosives


Fireworks aren't bombs and neither does something explosive need to be a bomb.


Simply wrong. Fireworks are bombs.

JJay - 15-11-2018 at 04:48

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
The problem is not whether such and such explosive device is a bomb or not. It's a bomb.


Not according to the law.


You are going to have to cite a law to make statements like that.

macckone - 22-11-2018 at 08:07

There are also regulations around storage of explosives. This is where the ATF usually gets people. Improper storage is a serious felony. Explosives may not be stored or manufactured in a residence in the majority of cases. There are set backs from roads and inhabited buildings that apply as well. You don't need a license to manufacture provided the explosives will be used immediately on-site. Many of the safety regulations still apply. And as mr Rogers pointed out a destructive device is not allowed. And that includes putting it in a glass or plastic container if such container would produce shrapnel. Yes. Simply storing explosives in an incorrect container is considered making an destructive device.

OldNubbins - 23-11-2018 at 00:35

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
The problem is not whether such and such explosive device is a bomb or not. It's a bomb.


I agree. It is too broad of a term.

gay bomb, bath bomb, stink bomb, flour bomb, bug bomb, and the ubiquitous F-Bomb

JJay - 23-11-2018 at 01:14

If you explain to the jury that you were just mining gravel in the back 40, someone is probably going to refuse to find you guilty. If you are duct taping ball bearings to a bomb, I don't think they are going to let that slide.

monolithic - 23-11-2018 at 18:42

VSEPR_VOID, can you tell us where you bought the acetone and peroxide from, so we know to never order from them?

[Edited on 24-11-2018 by monolithic]

macckone - 23-11-2018 at 20:36

a bomb is too broad a term.

a destructive device is anything that will produce potentially lethal shrapnel.
fireworks are not destructive devices as the paper won't produce shrapnel.
raw explosives aren't destructive devices without a means of ignition and something to create shrapnel.

but you can't transport or sell explosives without a license.
nor can you store explosives without following a load of regulations.
you can't manufacture explosives in a certain distance from a residence or roadway.

IF you are going to indulge in making explosives, do so responsibly and follow the rules.

VSEPR_VOID - 23-11-2018 at 21:18

Christ, this thread got long.

andy1988 - 15-1-2019 at 01:47

Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

Note specifically that picric acid is considered an explosive in the US rather wet or not unless you can prove it is for other uses.

@#$!

Here I am, planning my first use of the spectrophotometer I bought (Spectronic 20). Planning heavy metals testing samples out of curiosity... Jaffe reaction to measure creatine (creatinine?). Picric acid scarce on US ebay... so thought I would check here for better sources.

What a chore. Anyways, thanks for the explanation everyone, I wasn't aware.

EDIT: Wait, it says "Picric acid (manufactured as an explosive)." in that ATF document. I'd expect it in bulk solid form to be considered explosive. But a wet form in small bottle useful for things like the Jaffe reaction should maybe not be considered manufactured as an explosive? IDK.

[Edited on 16-1-2019 by andy1988]

VSEPR_VOID - 23-2-2019 at 19:27

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Where is my McNuke?

Velzee - 24-2-2019 at 20:11

This is ridiculous. The FBI has been going after everyone, I guess.


Gives me pure anxiety just whenever someone even just mentions the time they came to my apartment.

Although, I was one reckless kid.

Texium - 25-2-2019 at 19:03

Quote: Originally posted by andy1988  
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

Note specifically that picric acid is considered an explosive in the US rather wet or not unless you can prove it is for other uses.

@#$!

Here I am, planning my first use of the spectrophotometer I bought (Spectronic 20). Planning heavy metals testing samples out of curiosity... Jaffe reaction to measure creatine (creatinine?). Picric acid scarce on US ebay... so thought I would check here for better sources.

What a chore. Anyways, thanks for the explanation everyone, I wasn't aware.

EDIT: Wait, it says "Picric acid (manufactured as an explosive)." in that ATF document. I'd expect it in bulk solid form to be considered explosive. But a wet form in small bottle useful for things like the Jaffe reaction should maybe not be considered manufactured as an explosive? IDK.

[Edited on 16-1-2019 by andy1988]
I think that you can rest easy due to the fact that you have a spectrophotometer and can provide a detailed explanation of what you want to use it for. The law has to contain that flexibility for some reason. Your setup and explanation, along with the small amount and safe storage, should serve as proof beyond any doubt, if you should even run into trouble in the first place.

Mr. Rogers - 26-2-2019 at 11:00

A "bomb" is a munition that is dropped from an aircraft and carried to it's target by means of gravity. "Bomb" isn't any term that appears anywhere in US code to refer to fireworks.

"Little Boy" was a bomb, an LGM-30 is a missile, etc, and fireworks are fireworks.

Fantasma4500 - 27-8-2019 at 03:41

incorrect. a b*mb is an explosive device put together with the intent of destroying personnel of structure. it doesnt specify whether its a composition of single explosive chemical, low or high explosive - its all about the intent

if you deal with chemistry in the wet, live in paranoia and act on it. dont take chances, leave as little fingerprints as possible, stay off the radar. you cant convince them even if you have 200 different chemicals that you simply fancy collecting chemicals
even if they do show up at your door, even after all the demonization that always will follow with legal action or automatic weapons outside your door, they will still at minor notice show up again "just in case"
theyre not gonna put less focus on chemistry. its only going to get worse

Sturge11 - 6-9-2019 at 05:12

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers  
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

I was once threatend with 10 years in jail over a glass bottle of acetone.


Can you elaborate on this? I've heard about the "acetone in a glass bottle" thing before but I don't understand what this is about.



I believe that the acetone is a glass bottle bit is one of the hang ups referred to above. Obviously if you have acetone in a glass bottle, no big deal right? Well according to the letter of the law if you are in possession of a chemical classified as flammable you have to store it in a very particular way, clearly labelled as flammable. Without the proper storage and label you are violating the law and are susceptible to being punished. What he is referring to is his relatively minute disregard to the detail of the storage law resulting in a threat to his well being by law enforcement. I hope that clears this up for you.