Sciencemadness Discussion Board - The end of pyrotechnics in NL is even closer

The end of pyrotechnics in NL is even closer

woelen - 28-1-2008 at 00:38

Last weekend, Dutch politics seems to have agreed upon further regulating fireworks and pyrotechnics in general. We already had very strict rules for pyrotechnics, but from now on, fireworks may only be set off from Dec. 31, 22:00 to Jan. 1, 02:00, and only at certain designated places. It is left to the local authorities to choose locations, where fireworks can be set off. Some authorities may allow the entire city, but there certainly will also be cities, where fireworks may only be set off at a few locations.

With this new kind of regulation, it will be nearly impossible to do any pyrotechnics. I already left this area of interest many years ago, because of all strict regulations, but now it even has become worse.
The reason for these insanely strict regulations is that last New Year's eve, public property was destroyed at an enormous scale (appr. EUR 10.000.000 in the larger cities of NL

) and a multiple of that amount when the value of all private losses is counted (e.g. cars, window panes, even houses and a few schools). All this shit was done by a certain group of people, who only want trouble. They used fireworks for that purpose, but I do not believe that next New Year's eve will be different. Probably they won't use fireworks, but destroying cars and windows also can be done with bricks, bottles, filled with gasoline or whatever else they want.

This is a further tightening up of our hobby. This is a rather strange situation. In NL, obtaining chemicals is still relatively easy (e.g. oxidizers, red P, Al and many others are not regulated), but using them is another issue. A single bang may lead to a visit of the police and such a visit may lead to loss of all your materials. For this reason, I do not do any pyrotechnics at all, but I think it is a sad situation. Everywhere in the western world, true interest in science will be suppressed more and more. Every country/state uses its own methods, but whereever you look, freedoms are taken away more and more

.

[Edited on 28-1-08 by woelen]

The_Davster - 28-1-2008 at 05:59

Canada, at least where I live is similiar.

In cities, one needs a permit to buy fireworks within city limits. The fire station issues this permit, and you must state when and where you plan to set them off. They refuse to let you set them off in the city under 99% of circumstances, I have never seen a permit for within city limits. It does not stop many people on major holidays though.

Outside the cities, unless dry conditions exist and a specific ban is in place, fireworks are fine 24/7 365 days a year. Fireworks can be bought without a permit all year.

Nerro - 28-1-2008 at 07:48

Actually the total in additional damages was estimated to be €11.000.000

What's annoying is that there aren't many arguments in favour of retaining the present regulations. Many people only suffer the bad part of the fireworks and frankly why should they. The only real argument in favour is that it's fun. Unfortunately that's not much of a basis for anything...

not_important - 28-1-2008 at 08:48

How do Canadians handle the Chinese New Year? This is generally the largest display of exploding firecrackers around, I've walked past storefronts where the exploded cases were several cm deep and drifting from the wind.

microcosmicus - 28-1-2008 at 11:20

Quote:

All this shit was done by a certain group of people, who only want trouble. They used fireworks for that purpose, but I do not believe that next New Year's eve will be different. Probably they won't use fireworks, but destroying cars and windows also can be done with bricks, bottles, filled with gasoline or whatever else they want.

So will next years celebrations be the occasion for legal restrictions on bricks and
bottles? Maybe only allow licensed masons access to bricks (obviously anyone else
with a brick is a hoodlum looking to make damage). Of course, the reasonable
course of action would be to go, not after the firecrackers, put the people who
threw them, and make them pay for the damage they created. That way, the
next year they might think twice about making mischief using firecrackers, bricks,
or any other means.

Quote:

I think that, in line with what I said earlier, there is a powerful argument that the bad
actions of a group of troublemakers should not be used to keep good, law-abiding
citizens from an activity which is safe when done responsibly. Put more rhetorically,
does not banning fireworks grant extra victory to the hoodlums --- not only have they
wreaked immense property damage, but they have damaged the liberty of the people?
In order to retain your current regulation, I think the argument somehow needs to
refocussed from the means (fireworks) to the agents (troublemakers).
(Based on my experience in political activism, this is unfortunately far
easier said than done.)

Quote:

Everywhere in the western world, true interest in science will be suppressed more and more. Every country/state uses its own methods, but wherever you look, freedoms are taken away more and more

Yeah . . . . restrictions on pyrotechnics on Old Amsterdam, restrictions on detectors
in New Amsterdam . . . . not a very happy situation.

Quote:

How do Canadians handle the Chinese New Year?

I suspect not much differently from American states which ban fireworks
(such as New Jersey and New York) --- the authorities simply look the other
way, perhaps contenting themselves with a few token arrests and curbing
excesses. Political influence and palm grease smooth the process --- what
sane politician would want to risk losing the Asian vote by cracking down on
Chinese New Year or the Italian vote by cracking down on Italian festivities?
Heck, even mobsters like Gotti have gotten away sponsoring illegal
fireworks shows in New York.

This points to a real danger of excessive laws. In practice, there is no
way that something like a pretty total bans on pyrotechnics, chemical
detectors, or precursors (in the broad sense which includes things like
iodine and lithium) to drugs and bombs could be fully enforced. Not
only would it be a tall order for the police, it would grind life to a halt,
so what one typically gets is selective enforcement. That creates a
Russian Roulette like situation where there is a good chance you can do
questionable activities with no ill consequence but, should the authorities
ever take note and consider you a nuisance or want to make an example
of you, they can pounce on you with full force perfectly legally. Sure,
you can still maintain a home lab, but should neighbors complain about
bangs or a roommate be caught with drugs, or perhaps you speak out too
loudly on policy, you might find that lab confiscated.

[Edited on 28-1-2008 by microcosmicus]

quicksilver - 28-1-2008 at 11:27

Most places with a large Chinese population turn and look the other way. It's never been a big deal as I remember it. It's someone's Holiday; no one likes to be a party pooper.

The_Davster - 28-1-2008 at 17:47

The Chinese new year's traditional massive ammouts of exploding fireworks are rather rare. Canadian fireworks law explicitly bans all firecrackers...if it goes boom on the ground it is illegal. I believe Vancouver and its huge Chinese population ends up getting away with more than other places, the last time I was in Vancouver, in Chinatown I could have bought some if I wished. But here it is more rare, but illegal firecrackers always show up in any asian district.

[Edited on 28-1-2008 by The_Davster]

microcosmicus - 28-1-2008 at 18:51

At least from what I see in the online Chinese newspaper, a good part of
the Dutch population does not agree with the politicians on this issue.

http://english.cri.cn/2947/2008/01/08/198@311698.htm

woelen - 28-1-2008 at 23:54

Yes, the numbers given in that website are correct (opinion may have shifted by now by a percent or so, but the overall impression still is the same). But from the people, who are against the ban of fireworks only a small percentage is really strongly against it. Most of those people are against, but its not that important to them.
The people, who want the ban have a much louder voice in society. They are sick of all the damage, done every year, they are sick of the fighting, demolishion and other excessive behavior every year. With that I 100% agree, but their 'solution' is wrong. The only thing which helps is working towards another mentality, too many (young) people have nothing else in their life than boredom and this leads to this kind of things. It is not the fireworks which are to blame, it is the current mentality in a large part of society which frightens me.

[Edited on 29-1-08 by woelen]

microcosmicus - 29-1-2008 at 11:09

Quote:

Most of those people are against, but its not that important to them.
The people, who want the ban have a much louder voice in society.

Same situation here on the other side of the Atlantic. Since the people
with the louder voices are more likely to vote against politicians who
do not represent their agenda, they have greater influence .

Quote:

The only thing which helps is working towards another mentality,
too many (young) people have nothing else in their life than boredom and
this leads to this kind of things

Of course, this is where a science-related hobbies like chemistry,
electronics, or computer programming come in. If some of the young people
were busy distilling a mixture, winding a Tesla coil or debugging a program,
they would likely not be smashing windows out of boredom. While wagging
a finger and saying "Thou shalt not . . ." is a time-honored way of dealing with
such situations, a purely negative approach has its limitations --- unless one
also provides a positive alternative, the prohibition will simply be ignored,
leading to an out-of-control spiral of further prohibitions.

All that many young people growing up in industrialized societies have
nowadays in the way of recreation is video games, television, music
players and, at a later age, consumerism. While such things typically
can engage one's full attention, they are essentially passive and offer no
real sense of accomplishment. As I have witnessed firsthand, young people
growing up in such an environment turn out profoundly bored with a sense
that something is missing and try to fill that emptiness with activities which
are destructive both to themselves and those around them because they
don't know any constructive alternatives.

Quote:

They are sick of all the damage, done every year, they are sick of the fighting, demolishion and other excessive behavior every year. With that I 100% agree, but their 'solution' is wrong

Therefore, I think a more enlightened approach to this problem would be
to put the young people onto activities which require active participation
and give a sense of accomplishment. In addition to science, such activities
as making music (not just listening to it), writing literature, playing sports
(not just watching on television). gardening, arts, and crafts would also do.
(If anything is to banned or controlled, perhaps restrictions on televisions
and shopping malls would have more effect

) Not only would people with
such interests be much less likely to smash cars for fun, they would be
doing something to advance humanity. Of course, this would mean opposing
the socioeconomical trend of the western world towards mindless
consumerism away from manufacturing, but given how suicidally destructive
this has been, I hope that enough people will recognize this root problem
and focus on the cause rather than the effects..

undead_alchemist - 29-1-2008 at 20:59

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Davster
The Chinese new year's traditional massive ammouts of exploding fireworks are rather rare. Canadian fireworks law explicitly bans all firecrackers...if it goes boom on the ground it is illegal. I believe Vancouver and its huge Chinese population ends up getting away with more than other places, the last time I was in Vancouver, in Chinatown I could have bought some if I wished. But here it is more rare, but illegal firecrackers always show up in any asian district.

[Edited on 28-1-2008 by The_Davster]

In the Vancouver area there still is a lot of firecrackers that get set off all the time. most of the time people turn a blind eye to it.
Well we will see how the new years goes off this year.

chemrox - 30-1-2008 at 17:37

We still have a lot, too many for our animals, here in the US-PNW. People get the same stuff municipalities do if they want to spend the $. I don't like them but I dislike rules even more.

pyrochem - 2-2-2008 at 21:31

Yes, that's one of the things I hate the most about these rules. I set off one small firecracker (during the day on the 4th of July), and get an angry neighbor banging on my door (and threatening to call police). The rich people down the street have a huge private show in the middle of some random night (anniversary or birthday, most likely), just because they can pay thousands of dollars to someone with a license.

Sergei_Eisenstein - 5-2-2008 at 12:18

Quote:

The reason for these insanely strict regulations is that last New Year's eve, public property was destroyed at an enormous scale (appr. EUR 10.000.000 in the larger cities of NL ) and a multiple of that amount when the value of all private losses is counted (e.g. cars, window panes, even houses and a few schools). All this shit was done by a certain group of people, who only want trouble.

Human nature predicts that because of the stricter rules, there will be damages totaling EUR 20.000.000 next New Year's Eve.