Sciencemadness Discussion Board

20000 lbs of sodium +water

The_Davster - 3-1-2008 at 23:48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY7mTCMvpEM

Wow:o
Well its not all at once, just one drum at a time:P

chloric1 - 4-1-2008 at 03:06

LMAO!! Imagine living in those times. Notice the announcer said"Dangerous war chemical". This sounds to be propaganda to me. I wonder if there was a brief period around WWII when obtaining or having chemicals was a nono for the amateur?

12AX7 - 4-1-2008 at 07:41

I do wonder what they would've used it for, though. TEL? Surely someone would've bought it (hazardous shipping included) for that purpose.

Tim

microcosmicus - 4-1-2008 at 09:32

My guess is that there was no such ban on chemicals, or that, if there was
a ban, it would have been relatively mild compared to what is going on
nowadays, covering only a few specific compounds. More likely, any restrictions
would have been an issue of rationing than banning. When I look back at
books and magazine articles from that period --- the Modern Mechanix
articles now made available online or the material to be found at
the Vintage Projects website being good examples --- I get the impression
that amateur chemistry went on at full speed right through WWII. For instance,
right smack in the middle of WWII, Modern Mechanix ran an article "Learn
about Sulphuric Acid -- No. 1 War Chemical" which, among other things,
tells readers how to make the stuff at home using an iron oxide
catalyst (useful information today, especially for those who can't
find vanadium oxide at their local pottery store) . An article "Table-top
Oil Refinery" begins by saying how important oil is for the war effort and
suggests this a reason why oil production should be of interest to the
citizen scientists and then describes how to crack hydrocarbons and
hydrogenate oils at home. As if to clinch my point, an patriotic ad for
a Chemcraft chemistry set from that period features a letter from an older
brother in the army urging his junior sibling to keep up his interest
because chemistry is important for the war effort! (The very antipode
of today's attitudes.) I suppose that, back then, somebody dabbling in
energetics might have been more likely to be viewed as an ingenous
backyard inventor who might discover the next great explosive to use
against the fascists rather than as a menace to society.

MagicJigPipe - 4-1-2008 at 11:44

Damnit! I would have bought my own truck and offered to ship it myself! To my house!

I mean, it's not THAT dangerous as long as you keep it dry. They acted like it was barrels of VX gas.

And I bet you could use that lake water as a household degreaser or oven cleaner. Wouldn't want to go swimming in it after that.

[Edited on 4-1-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

The_Davster - 4-1-2008 at 13:58

Can you imagine having even one drum of it? I would make a removable tight seal lid for it with a cushion ontop and call it my lab stool. Can you imagine the reaction of a safety inspector to something like that:P

I wonder what it was used for as well in wartime,, perhaps going to the plutonium factories for reduction purposes? Although that got started even more after the war, so I do not see why they would dispose of it.

microcosmicus - 4-1-2008 at 14:26

Maybe the sodium was a byproduct from running a Downs cell
to make chlorine for use in producing war gases or what not?
Otherwise, it would seem incredibly wasteful to me to be
discarding something which required that much electricity
to manufacture.

chloric1 - 4-1-2008 at 14:48

Something just occurred to me. Things where cheaper then and the times where simpler. Maybe the stuff got oxidized to the point that whoever decided it was no longer of satisfactory quality. It does seem strange they didn't just sell it. Judging by the reactions, There was enough to be useful for Organic Synthesis. But they did not have Internet, chemistry blogs, or other methods of informing the chemical public.

Regardless, it is still a GREAT video! Thank you Dave!

microcosmicus - 4-1-2008 at 14:56

I suppose that they could have thrown it into a vat of water, bottled
the stuff and sold it as drain cleaner. However, as you said, times
were simpler so maybe they wouldn't care to bother and simply dumped it.

tumadre - 4-1-2008 at 17:58

I would take a guess that bulk electricity would have been 1.5 to 3 cents/KWH at the time.

and that the price of sodium would then have been 20-40 cents per pound.

microcosmicus - 4-1-2008 at 18:55

Adjusting for inflation according to the consumer price index, that's $3 to $6
a pound today's money, so the equivalent of $60000 to $120000 went up
in smoke and flames.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

chloric1 - 4-1-2008 at 19:01

Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Adjusting for inflation according to the consumer price index, that's $3 to $6
a pound today's money, so the equivalent of $60000 to $120000 went up
in smoke and flames.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/


ITs very hard to trust those "in today's dollar" scenarios. Especially since Nixon took us off the gold standard and the Federal Reserve can't keep there mits out. Always printing more money with no value and lending out figures on a computer screen. It is all crashing down,crashing down...:o

The_Davster - 4-1-2008 at 19:13

All that means is that its worth even more...60 to 120K minimum:P

However I still prefer to call it priceless;)

Magpie - 4-1-2008 at 19:36

It is interesting to me that Lake Lenore had no fish in 1947. That is not true today as you can see at this site:

http://www.washingtonlakes.com/ReportList.aspx?id=562

I wonder if that sodium hadn't been intended for use at the US Atomic Energy site at nearby Hanford, Washington. Perhaps as a reactor coolant.

12AX7 - 4-1-2008 at 20:31

I don't think anyone was considering a sodium cooled reactor (usually goes with an advanced breeder reactor design) at the time.

Tim

vulture - 5-1-2008 at 05:03

Quote:

Notice the announcer said"Dangerous war chemical".


I think you're misinterpreting this. "War chemical" as chemical used in the war industry and dangerous just because sodium is fucking dangerous.

chloric1 - 5-1-2008 at 06:49

I probably misinterpretted this statement. After all I have been programmed that any negative description of a chemical is antichemical propaganda. Even as far back as the late 1980's it was progressing. Of coarse, back then I could go to the Central Hardware and buy a 50 lb bag of ammonium nitrate for $20 and go to Bulders square to buy 1 gallon of 1,1,1 Trichloroethane for $11. :(:(:( I miss those days.

Polverone - 5-1-2008 at 15:39

After WW II in the US a lot of war surplus was destroyed rather than sold to prevent economic shocks. I wonder if that's why this sodium wasn't for sale.

Rosco Bodine - 5-1-2008 at 16:44

Quote:
Originally posted by chloric1
ITs very hard to trust those "in today's dollar" scenarios. Especially since Nixon took us off the gold standard and the Federal Reserve can't keep there mits out. Always printing more money with no value and lending out figures on a computer screen. It is all crashing down,crashing down...:o


YGTFR ...I figure every dollar I have now is worth a
solid eight cents , but not for long .

Mario. - 13-1-2008 at 14:54

Spectacular... the youtube comment says:
Code:
Lake Lenore, an alkaline lake in the Grand Coulee area of eastern Washington State

So, I suppose the lake was already alcaline, maybe they were dumping in sodium hydroxide previously.

The stated reason was: "nobody was willing to transport it to buyer" and I am prone to believe it! The drums were extraordinarily huge and impractical for any use. And yes, if they had any option to store it safely, not so far away it would be used in nuclear reactor - but that was some ~30 years later.

Drunkguy - 9-2-2008 at 06:54

It seems like such a waste. It's crazy how people destroy things worth THOUSANDS upon thousands of pounds.

Sure, like it was the only available option, I bet they only did it because they wanted to see an inferno.

I saw a fireworks factory in Norway or somewhere on "the worlds most amazing videos 2" or similar. They said after that fire, the city resembled a warzone, and it did look similar it must be said.

YT2095 - 9-2-2008 at 06:57

they sure knew how to have Fun back then though, ya gotta give `em that! :)

Drunkguy - 9-2-2008 at 07:12

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