Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Request to remove supplier information from website

I am a fish - 25-9-2003 at 03:21

I received the following anonymous E-mail today, in reference to my Readily Available Chemicals website.
Quote:

Hi Chris,

You don't know me but I am a member of another chemistry related discussion
board (discussing the chemistry of psychoactives.)

Just a suggestion Chris, but do you think naming specific businesses and
providing their URLs on your website is wise? It's just that a number of
members at sciencemadness seem to be members of the H*ve and are providing
links to information at sciencemadness. The H*ve has a VERY STRICT no sources
policy because not only is it potentially hazardous to the businesses involved
but it provides an easy bottleneck for law enforcement to monitor. This policy
has come about at the H*ve because there are a number of cases where this kind
of publicity has lead to serious legal action and convictions against
businesses and individuals.

When I first found a link to the sciencemadness site I found your information
page within minutes and no doubt anyone else linking to the site could do
likewise.

I feel very strongly that anyone dedicated enough will find the information and
resources they require and the information given relating to each substance (on
your page) is enough to give anyone with reasonable aptitude a very substantial
clue to where to start looking.
I wonder how the businesses involved feel about the attention this kind of
publicity might bring. You must understand Chris, they can be held legally
responsible for not reporting suspicious orders and you may be putting them at
substantial risk.

I ask you sincerely Chris to please consider removing business names and URLs
and to provide them to others in private and with discretion.

Concerned bee.



I had previously questioned the wisdom of listing suppliers, but I decided that openness is generally better than self-censorship. However, I certainly don't want innocent suppliers to suffer as a result, and so I have removed the names of individual companies pending further consideration.

What do other people think?

Mephisto - 25-9-2003 at 05:17

You’ve done the right. I would never publish my German suppliers. That sounds unkind for newbies, but it’s a decision to protect self-interests against government regulation.

I think, this topic is perfect to start a poll. But I neither began this thread, nor start a poll before. Fish or vulture, are you willing to make it?

Marvin - 28-9-2003 at 09:40

The email does make some sense.

But its perhaps helpful to look at the motives behind it. People attempting to make drugs tend to be overly paranoid. They would prefer it if the sources they buy from, sassafras oil or plain borax, not be generally known. They'd far rather it wasnt on your website, they'd far rather you didnt have it and theyd far rather they were the only ones using those suppliers for anything but their intended purposes.

Additionally there is a problem with the attitude of many home chemists, myself included though I like to think Ive grown out of this. --"I am the only person I know that can be trusted to do these dangerous experiments, I'm the only one careful enough to order from these websites without suspicion"

Its quite possible that some buisnesses will take offence to selling multiple orders of only generic chemicals. This isnt surprising, what they want to sell are premixed, prepackaged and premium priced cocktails with fancy labels. Its possible some of these might stop trading on the internet, its rarely possible some of these might be prosicuted for not reporting some orders. But not reporting orders isnt the fault of buyers, its the fault of the seller and theres only one class of people that would prefer the world was filled with sellers that didnt report suspicios orders, yes its the very people that would like the list stopped and its not even in touch with reality - its a paranoid dream "I wish the world was full of suppliers that dont tell anyone, but to get round these evil laws we have to keep them all secret so the lamers dont screw this up".

You have something of a dilemma :-
You can keep it how it is, and risk being buzzed by the odd bee, losing the odd site you might have lost anyway...
You can make it open to anyone, but keep the information out of general viewing (and mainly search engines)
You can close it up and attempt to work against the very thing you put together that page to promote.

My suggestion is that if you keep the list public in any form (eg open website, circulated text file), it needs to be much longer. If you have one or two pottery suppliers listed they're much more likley to object than if there are 20 or 30 websites selling much the same products with a few marked 'large range' or 'good prices' particualy if its spread over 5 countries. Dispite whats written in the email the most important threat is that those websites themselves find out they are being 'singled out' to sell to 'anarchists' and 'drug dealers'. They are much more likley to pull product lines themselves than to be legally forced to.

The page is a damn good start, but in my opinion its not useful as it currently is (without any seller info). We have enough places telling us acetic acid is in vinigar, and that we can buy aluminium foil at supermarkets. What is needed is lists of suppliers, online seller links, trade names, brand names, MSDS sheets, prices for generic chemicals so we dont get all excited and spend a fortune on a few hundred grams when the same money would have got us a truckload we wouldnt use in a lifetime....

I hope this post helps you make up your mind one way or another, I dont think it will affect this section of the forum too much, which is after all dedicated to helping people find suppliers for chemicals and equipment. UK is a lot more difficult to find suppliers than USA or even germany and your site fills a niche. I have a backup of it in any case, so I'm not worried for my own ends, but I'm arguing for what Id have liked your page of information to become.

Healthy paranoia

Dr Teeth - 4-10-2003 at 17:30

<i>Paranoia:
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward <b>excessive or irrational suspiciousness</b> and distrustfulness of others</i>

Marvin there is nothing irrational or excessive about it. The legal risks are very real. Delude yourself if you wish but attempting to delude others is irresponsible.

<i>>They would prefer it if the sources they buy from, sassafras oil or plain borax, not be generally known.
>They'd far rather it wasnt on your website,
>they'd far rather you didnt have it and
>theyd far rather they were the only ones using those suppliers for anything but their intended purposes.</i>

Look again. Provide the links to others privately and with discretion is what was said. Didn't you read it?

I completely agree with the email, there is no excuse for laziness and people who insist on being spoonfed are just lazy IMHO. If someone can't find the resources they require for their hobby, without being spoonfed, then perhaps they should find another.

There is still more than enough info on the webpage anyway.

I hear what your saying about listing lots and lots of websites, to dilute the attention that only a few websites would get, but lets face it there is a piece of software out there already which will compile links to bucket loads of suppliers and it won't bring those suppliers any negative attention whatsoever. It's called Google, everyone is free to use it and by learning to find things for yourself you'll develop a skill which spoonfeeding will never give you. Resourcefullness!

Entitilement

teclord - 8-10-2003 at 09:54

You can find all the sites on the internet that sell chemicals through google. What I have found is that you will find a group of websites that are companys and personal websites and they are all interlinked. So you can only find 30 or so sites. Unless someone gives you a link to another site outside of those grouped. Thats how I got here but it took me 2 years of reading and posting at T-- H---.
It's not called spoon feeding. Its called looking. Just as i search the web for list of sites and ask friends for chem places in the area and the yellow pages.

Marvin - 8-10-2003 at 23:31

Dr Teeth,

Youve quoted a dictionary definition of paranoia in order to educate us, or more specifically show up me, in the use of the word, and yet your own quoted definition (and more particulaly your own emphasis) voids the title you gave to your own post.
Quote:

Marvin there is nothing irrational or excessive about it. The legal risks are very real. Delude yourself if you wish but attempting to delude others is irresponsible.


Perhaps youd like to explain how a bunch of sites selling common chemicals such as bleach, copper sulphate, calcium sulphate, ceric oxide and the like are going to make the law angry enough to prosicute them?

Lesse, legal risks of a pottery supplier, well, you could be buying a large amount of calcium sulphate, and bury someone in it, and then that'd be murder.

Swimming pool supplier? Well, they sell bleach. Bleach kills germs, and well thats basically mass murder isnt it.

You could buy yeast and nutriants from a brewing supplier, a large amount of sugar, make loads of alcohol, get someone really drunk, but a large bucket of ferric chloride from an electronics supplier and use it to bash their head in.

These chemicals will always be sold, they're available in bulk to buisnesses and they sell. This only gets better with the internet, but like all situations where an aparent gap exists some people will try to rip people off. From this you get occult suppliers such as named in the list, and gardenchemicals.co.uk not named in the list that charge sizable money for miniscule amounts.
Quote:

>They would prefer it if the sources they buy from, sassafras oil or plain borax, not be generally known.
>They'd far rather it wasnt on your website,
>they'd far rather you didnt have it and
>theyd far rather they were the only ones using those suppliers for anything but their intended purposes.

Look again. Provide the links to others privately and with discretion is what was said. Didn't you read it?


Oh of course, and the email is saying what it really meant isnt it?
After all, if the author _really_ didnt want anyone to have that information, he wouldnt have written that, hed have written:-
'I do not want you to have this information, please visit your local suicide booth as soon as possible.'
Quote:

There is still more than enough info on the webpage anyway.

More than enough information, for what exactly?

The list is not useful as it is. It does contain some good information, but its frequently wrong or gives bad advice and it it is targeted at US people, whereas the page, its author, and the suppliers were mostly british. Show me someone that buys acetic acid as vinigar for their experiements and I'll show you someone thats more worthy of ridicule and pity in equal measure than almost anyone that cant find reasonably priced potassium nitrate in the UK.

Brits have a lot more trouble getting even simple chemicals than virtually anyone else in western europe. Things in the US are reportadly a lot easier, as chemical supply houses will frequently sell inoccous chemicals to private individuals, here they dont. Buisness that could sell sundry chemicals typically dont, entirly by choice. In the time I've been buying small amounts of chemicals from the phamacies locally, they have stopped selling iron and copper sulphate, tincture of iodine, they have never sold in the past 20 years saltpeter or sulphur, the photography deparment doesnt sell sodium thiosulphate! This is an insanely self regulated by mutual apathy situation and the only way round it is for people to share information on what they've found.

A few hours spent on the net with the right search terms will get you decently priced copper sulphate in the UK. But thats just 1 chemical. A half decent home setup needs a minimum of 20 - 30 chemicals before its even worthy of the title 'home lab', most of which will have to be ordered from seperate companies and thats only if the chemist knows what common chemicals are useful, and what arnt.

The avarage clued up brit trying to use a search engine for potassium nitrate in the UK will be ripped off, even after several hours of searching. The avarage brit searching for toluene or xylene will spend several days searching before giving up, or buying a solvent that simply says 'contains toluene' and finds out its not in useful concentrations.

Putting this information on a document and letting people read it isnt spoon feeding, its work thats allready been done. You are using a computer designed and fabricated by someone else, an operating system someone else wrote, a web browser you didnt write either, and yet we dont call this 'spoonfeeding'. ITs work someone else has done. We arnt any the worse for not having done it all ourselves, and time spent doing it is time spent not doing what we want, like chemisty.

If someone spends a month trying to find chemicals, and 'succeeds', thats not a well spent month. It doesnt make the better at chemistry, it doesnt make them better in the lab, its not remotly useful. When the stuff arrives they'll find out later that they were ripped off on the price of most of it, and a large percentage wasnt what theyd thought it was going to be by the description. You buy a solvent here that says 'contains toluene' and when it arrives you'll likley be staring at a complex mixture that contains less than 10% toluene. This is nuts. Among my collected sundry chemicals I have a sizable number of mistakes, where the 'contains' section looked promising even in some cases where the concentration was stated as high but after buying it turned out to be totally useless.

Its very easy to take the high and mighty view. Lists of suppliers? Well thats just spoon feeding, you should be searching youself. Forums about chemistry? Well thats just spoon feeding, you should be going to the library and looking up the stuff youself. Buying reagents? Well thats just spoonfeeding, you should be making all your own precursors and reagents. Books? Teachers? Well thats just spoon feeding you should be starting from water and soil and recreating all of known chemistry from the ground up by yourself.

Its not the suppliers that need to be protected from the home chemists, its the home chemists that need protecting from bad suppliers.

Frankly if legal action and spoon feeding are your only points Dr Teeth then I'm somewhat disspointed, particually considering you regged a name specifically to make that one post.

Things are going to get tighter in the future and the solution is sharing information.

I am a fish - 9-10-2003 at 07:31

Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin

The page is a damn good start, but in my opinion its not useful as it currently is (without any seller info). We have enough places telling us acetic acid is in vinigar, and that we can buy aluminium foil at supermarkets. What is needed is lists of suppliers, online seller links, trade names, brand names, MSDS sheets, prices for generic chemicals so we dont get all excited and spend a fortune on a few hundred grams when the same money would have got us a truckload we wouldnt use in a lifetime....



I agree that more suppliers and information is needed. However, all the decent suppliers I know of are already on the list. If you know of other decent suppliers, tell me about them.

I spend hours scouring Google. I get good deal's on some chemicals I buy, and awful deals on others. (An overpriced chemical is better than no chemical. If I always waited for a better deal, I would have no chemicals at all. Also, I generally work with very small quantities of chemicals, and so I don't mind buying small amounts.) For the list to give better advice, I need help.
Quote:


The list is not useful as it is. It does contain some good information, but its frequently wrong or gives bad advice...



Can you tell me where the wrong information is, so that I can correct it? (I don't mean to be agressive -- I just want the page to be accurate.) As for bad advice, can you give me the names of better suppliers?
Quote:

...the page, its author, and the suppliers were mostly british.


I'm perfectly willing to add foreign suppliers to the list (in fact, I want the list to be international). However, I'm not going to spend time looking for suppliers that I'm unlikely to use. If you know of a good supplier in any country, please tell me.

(extensively edited to elaborate on smaller reply)

[Edited on 9-10-2003 by I am a fish]

Dr Teeth - 9-10-2003 at 18:18

Well Marvin.....I didn't post the dictionary meaning of paranoia to show you up at all! Thats just being paranoid!<:D>

But seriously.....the point I was trying to make is that contreversial, and illegal-to-perform techniques are discussed here....explosives and poisons and the like. Thats kinda legally dangerous stuff.

But I still don't think you've answered the question....why can't you find what you need via a search engine? All the businesses listed on the hyperdeath webpage were websites..so they can ALL be found through search engines!!
And if you can't find something you should ask around.

If you put lots of suppliers all on one webpage and splash the link all over a 'contreversial' discussion board don't you think that is kinda self-defeating at all?

I'm not trying to insult you but your last post just sounded like one big whine. It sounded like you think it's everyone elses responsibility to find stuff and tell you about it and it better not be a rip off either. For example:
Quote:
A few hours spent on the net with the right search terms will get you decently priced copper sulphate in the UK. But thats just 1 chemical. A half decent home setup needs a minimum of 20 - 30 chemicals before its even worthy of the title 'home lab', most of which will have to be ordered from seperate companies and thats only if the chemist knows what common chemicals are useful, and what arnt.


SO!....You are going to have to hunt around to get all the stuff you need....what a bitch!. I don't know why it should be so difficult to find something as simple as copper sulphate though. By the way fish's site helps those that don't know what those chemicals are used for...I think that is very usefull

By the way I took a few of those chemicals you mentioned and put them in a search engine and found lots of suppliers!...and it didn't take days either.

vulture - 10-10-2003 at 13:56

But seriously.....the point I was trying to make is that contreversial, and illegal-to-perform techniques are discussed here....explosives and poisons and the like. Thats kinda legally dangerous stuff.

You don't like us discussing that? Fine. It's your right of free speech, just as it is our right of free speech to discuss those things. You do realize that you posting here will give the prosecutor circumstancial evidence?

By the way I took a few of those chemicals you mentioned and put them in a search engine and found lots of suppliers!...and it didn't take days either.

I bet my ass and 2 fingers that they won't sell to individuals everywhere over the world.

Dr Teeth - 10-10-2003 at 14:46

>You don't like us discussing that?

Where did I say that?

>I bet my ass and 2 fingers that they won't sell to individuals everywhere over the world

No I bet they don't as well but thats why google provides a country specific search engine for lots of countries.

I am a fish - 11-10-2003 at 06:30

Whilst trying to find suppliers with Google, I found that almost all of the hits are either laboratory suppliers who refuse to sell to private individuals, or manufacturers who sell vast quantities to industrial users.

let your fingers do the walking

Dr Teeth - 11-10-2003 at 12:08

Of course, Google isn't perfect, even in this day and age some businesses still aren't online :o and for those you must go low-tech with that old favourite...Yellow Pages. ;)

I am a fish - 12-10-2003 at 03:33

Don't take my previous post to mean that Google isn't useful for searching for chemical suppliers. What I meant to say, was that there are useful sites to be found, but they get swamped by other things.

My comment was intended as a rebuttal to the following statement...
Quote:

By the way I took a few of those chemicals you mentioned and put them in a search engine and found lots of suppliers!


[Edited on 12-10-2003 by I am a fish]

Marvin - 12-10-2003 at 08:42

Dr Teeth, Google is imperfect for a lot of reasons.

How about those sites that are in england, but have .com addreses and dont have 'uk' or 'england' on the catalogue pages?

How about those sites that use javascript to access pages, and google cant comb.

Even with good search terms you get results that are 99% junk in the first 100 pages. And the more specific the search terms, the more likley you are to miss a good site that doesnt conform.

Suppliers only have on the web page what they want you to know. They dont have what you want to know, about the products, about themselves.

The only way you can be sure of getting a good deal is to search every shop that has the product. Its not feasable for everyone to do this seperatly, but it is feasable to search different sites and update a central register anytime someone finds a better deal, or a new suppllier. People then can be mostly sure they arnt being ripped off.

Mr Fish,
I will collate a few, its been a while since I last ordered from some of them, and mail you a list so they dont get individual attention.

The list needs to be a lot longer, but its not 'fake' sites we need, its redundancy.

Occult sites and Jewellery Making Suppliers are usually extortionate, and also for a reason I dont understand, silver nitrate from photography stores is always scortchingly priced.

There arnt that many errors in the list, but any list with 'Hardware store' in it is so biased it really needs redoing from scratch for the UK - or for that matter any other country.

A few possible errors I have spotted off the top of my head,

Copper (II) hypochlorite - Fungicide, this might be a missinterpretation of 'copper oxychloride' , which is a basic copper chloride.

The methanoic acid has the structure of ethanoic acid. Silicon dioxide - Diatomaceous Earth, this can have a crystalised silica content typically anywhere from 1% to 60%, I dont think this is a general source.

Sodium Acetate Solution, liquid in instant heat pads. If these are the pads I think is meant, I understood they were sodium thiosulphate.5.water.

Sodium Persulphate - PCB ethant, this is always a mixture, it has to contain an acid or it cant put the copper into solution.

Having looked right through the list I have to say I havnt been able to find half the stuff in the situations listed but found elsewhere. HCl patio cleaner has only turned out to be unusable, toilet cleaner NaHSO4 unusable, sulphur dusting powder unusable etc. Ive been a compulsive label reader for 15 years and these lists from tbbom and the like have been completely useless in the uk in my experience.

Polverone - 12-10-2003 at 09:24

I had always thought that the liquid in those instant heat pads (the reusable ones with a metallic disc that you flex to activate the pad) was supersaturated sodium acetate solution (see for example http://www.davisenter.com/instantheatpacks/faq.htm).

I have ammonium persulfate that was sold for PCB etching. The only CAS number it lists is that for ammonium persulfate.

Here's the kind that I have:
http://us.st9.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/webtronics_1744_154...

The manufacturer's website has a page for the sodium compound as well, and the MSDS indicates it's 100% sodium persulfate:
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/4101.html

I am a fish - 12-10-2003 at 12:02

Quote:
I will collate a few, its been a while since I last ordered from some of them, and mail you a list so they dont get individual attention.


Thanks.
Quote:

Copper (II) hypochlorite - Fungicide, this might be a missinterpretation of 'copper oxychloride' , which is a basic copper chloride.


You're right. I'll change that to "Cu2Cl(OH)3 -- Copper(II) chloride trihydroxide"

Quote:

The methanoic acid has the structure of ethanoic acid.


I'll change that.
Quote:

Silicon dioxide - Diatomaceous Earth, this can have a crystalised silica content typically anywhere from 1% to 60%, I dont think this is a general source.


I'll remove that.
Quote:

Sodium Acetate Solution, liquid in instant heat pads. If these are the pads I think is meant, I understood they were sodium thiosulphate.5.water.


I think both are used (although, now that you mention it, I'll add sodium thiosulphate as well).
Quote:

Sodium Persulphate - PCB ethant, this is always a mixture, it has to contain an acid or it cant put the copper into solution.


I'm not sure about that one. By what mechanism does sodium persulphate dissolve copper?
Quote:

Having looked right through the list I have to say I havnt been able to find half the stuff in the situations listed but found elsewhere. HCl patio cleaner has only turned out to be unusable, toilet cleaner NaHSO4 unusable, sulphur dusting powder unusable etc. Ive been a compulsive label reader for 15 years and these lists from tbbom and the like have been completely useless in the uk in my experience.


I'll remove them. In what way were they unusable?


I'm thinking of getting rid of the table format (which is fairly restrictive), and instead switching to a more general format, where the suppliers are listed under the chemical headings.

I'll illustrate the format I'm planning with a (completely random) example...


Iron(II) Sulphate

Formula: FeSO4
Synonyms: Ferrous Sulphate

Suppliers

1. 'Alternative' photographic suppliers sell iron(II) sulphate heptahydrate by name.

Artcraft (USA)
Photographers' Formulary (USA)
Rayco (UK)
Silverprint (UK)

2. Dyeing and textile suppliers (especially those catering to hobbyists working with natural dyes), sell iron(II) sulphate heptahydrate as "Iron Mordant".

Dharma Trading (USA)
Fibrecrafts (UK)
Homecrafts (UK)
Maiwa (Canada)

3. Crude iron(II) sulphate is available from many agricultural suppliers and garden centres, as "Sulphate of Iron" fertiliser.

Focus DIY (UK) (not listed on wesite)
Paradise Park (UK)

4. Iron(II) sulphate solution can be prepared by dissolving an excess of iron (as iron filings or steel wool) in dilute sulphuric acid. Drying this will yield Iron(II) Sulphate Heptahydrate. Contact with air must be minimised to prevent oxidation to the iron(III) (ferric) state.


The entry is incomplete (many more suppliers need to be added).

Needless to say THE SITE WILL NEVER BE COMPLETE WITHOUT HELP. That entry took about half an hour to put together. If you multiply that time by (say) 5, to find a range of suppliers in many countries and then then multiply that by 200 chemicals, it equates to an amount of time I simply don't have.

[Edited on 12-10-2003 by I am a fish]

Marvin - 14-10-2003 at 12:53

Another one I forgot to mention,

Potassium chlorate - Oxygenating Tablets, are we sure this is right? I dont see a way this could result in dissolved oxygen and isnt this toxic to fish?

I stand corrected about sodium persulphate, the one I thought I saw was a mixture of persulphate and bisuplhate which made sense at the time. Ammonium persulphate I can quite see how it should dissolve copper, sodium persulphate etchant now confuses me.

Sodium thiosulphate was what Ive been told, and since Ive done the supersaturated experiment myself I bilieved it, but in the absense of evidence, I'll defer. I think anyone buying heat packs for either chemical though.....

Ive tried several brands of patio cleaner stating 10% HCl (the best seen), they were all unusable. Furthur into the past I looked about for a long time for bisulphate in cleaners, and found very little. Now I dont even want bisulphate. I have better information as to whats avilable locally, and I now regard both as red herrings, along with a great many other tips many of which includ the words 'hardware', 'grocery' and 'store'. If I sound a tad bitter, its probably becuase I am.

The Iron sulphate entry looks good, but to my mind its missing one or two important things. Firstly that gardenstuff can be just as good as technical grade from a lab, and secondly it typically retails for 2.50 to 3ukp for 1 kg, or from about 70p/kg for 25. Rayco for example are charging in the region of £20/kg and without knowing sane prices, people might actually pay it. A third important thing is any good known brands like in this case 'J Arthur Bowers' so people can know what theyre buying is ok and if a shop doesnt sell it they can ask them to order it by name.


[Edited on 14-10-2003 by Marvin]

I am a fish - 14-10-2003 at 13:42

Quote:
Originally posted by Marvin
Potassium chlorate - Oxygenating Tablets, are we sure this is right? I dont see a way this could result in dissolved oxygen and isnt this toxic to fish?


I wondered this myself. However I've definitely seen such a product labeled 'Potassium Chlorate 98%'. It's possible that the tablets contained some kind of catalyst to accelerate the breakdown of the chlorate ions once in solution.
Quote:

Sodium thiosulphate was what Ive been told, and since Ive done the supersaturated experiment myself I bilieved it, but in the absense of evidence, I'll defer. I think anyone buying heat packs for either chemical though....


I agree that heat packs are a poor source of the chemicals contained within. However, buying a chemical is only easy when you know of a supplier. It's definitely possible that for someone somewhere, no better supplier exists.

Quote:

The Iron sulphate entry looks good, but to my mind its missing one or two important things. Firstly that gardenstuff can be just as good as technical grade from a lab, and secondly it typically retails for 2.50 to 3ukp for 1 kg, or from about 70p/kg for 25. Rayco for example are charging in the region of £20/kg and without knowing sane prices, people might actually pay it. A third important thing is any good known brands like in this case 'J Arthur Bowers' so people can know what theyre buying is ok and if a shop doesnt sell it they can ask them to order it by name.


Thanks. I've already greatly expanded on the entry -- I'll upload what I've done soon.

£3 for 1kg is only better value than £2 for 100g if you want that extra 900g (which I personally wouldn't -- I generally work in small quantities). Also, when you factor in delivery costs, a photographic supplier which sells lots of chemicals could work out at better value overall than an agricultural supplier selling only a few.

Another issue is diversity of supply. Listing lots of suppliers, minimises the chance of an individual company being persecuted and also ensures that even if one source dries up, there are others to replace it.

[Edited on 15-10-2003 by I am a fish]

Dr Teeth - 14-10-2003 at 17:21

Vulture:
Quote:
You do realize that you posting here will give the prosecutor circumstancial evidence?


Could you expand on that statement? Circumstantial evidence against who?


Fish:
Quote:
THE SITE WILL NEVER BE COMPLETE WITHOUT HELP


-What is complete anyway? Every online chemical source in every country? What about those sources that aren't online?

-Can I assume you plan to add even more sources to your site or are you just going post them all here?

-Given that I have lots of other sources which weren't on your webpage....what then? I don't wish those sources to be shut down or for them to pull their useful chemicals and products off the shelves due to adverse publicity, but I am happy to share those sources with others who will keep them private and share them privately. Mephisto for example has already said how he would rather not have his German sources publicised. I wonder how many others don't share their sources here, even in private,

-Was everyone who shared with you those sources you were unable to locate yourself aware of the fact that you planned on publishing them in this way ?

Marvin are you making this stuff up so people will feel sorry for you? Walk into any hardware store, the old family business kind and ask for muriatic acid and if they don't have it already or cannot order it for you I would be VERY surprised. And remember try not to look like a mad bomber....brush your hair or something! :D




.

Polverone - 14-10-2003 at 17:47

Quote:
Given that I have lots of other sources which weren't on your webpage....what then? I don't wish those sources to be shut down or for them to pull their useful chemicals and products off the shelves due to adverse publicity, but I am happy to share those sources with others who will keep them private and share them privately. Mephisto for example has already said how he would rather not have his German sources publicised. I wonder how many others don't share their sources here, even in private

If a supplier sells chemicals that are of use in drug synthesis to private individuals, that retailer is either aware of it and enjoying their large profit margins or incredibly naive about why their customers buy so much nitroethane and benzaldehyde (substitute your favorite suspicious chemicals). This goes doubly for retailers who sell over the net. So if you've found a source that's happy to take your money and not question your choice of chemicals, don't submit it for inclusion on the webpage. It's as simple as that.

Why don't I mention explosives in the same breath with drugs? Common explosive syntheses are much simpler than those for common recreational drugs and the raw materials for them are almost embarassingly abundant.

If a supplier sells (or an over the counter product contains) chemicals that are of broad use and not specifically connected to drugs or other Officially Bad stuff, there's no reason to think that they will suffer even if publicized.

Do you object to the whole project, or just the listing of specific suppliers?

I am a fish - 15-10-2003 at 00:52

Quote:

-What is complete anyway? Every online chemical source in every country? What about those sources that aren't online?


I would define 'complete' as a reasonable cross-section of suppliers for every obtainable chemical.
Quote:

-Can I assume you plan to add even more sources to your site or are you just going post them all here?


The new site is under contruction.
Quote:

-Given that I have lots of other sources which weren't on your webpage....what then? I don't wish those sources to be shut down or for them to pull their useful chemicals and products off the shelves due to adverse publicity, but I am happy to share those sources with others who will keep them private and share them privately. Mephisto for example has already said how he would rather not have his German sources publicised. I wonder how many others don't share their sources here, even in private,

-Was everyone who shared with you those sources you were unable to locate yourself aware of the fact that you planned on publishing them in this way ?


The sources I list are either ones I've found myself, or ones that have been already posted on a public forum.

Marvin - 15-10-2003 at 06:48

Quote:

Marvin are you making this stuff up so people will feel sorry for you?

You must be really desperate for a counterpoint to be trying this one. No, I'm not making anything up, and I certainly dont expect people to feel sorry for me - particulaly as I can allready get the chemicals mentioned and a lot more. However the listed info was not helpful and would not be helpful to most other people here.

I need another example.
Quote:

Walk into any hardware store,

Ah, an example.

Now, I'm sure Ive said this allready. We dont have 'Hardware stores' and what we do have arnt anything like what they aparently are in the US. We have DIY stores, wallpaper stores, the very rare ironmongers stores. They dont sell large amounts of generic stuff though, they sell branded turpintine, branded methylated spirits, they dont sell 'pure' anything unless they can help it.
Quote:

the old family business kind

We dont have these. We have large chains, a few small chains and the odd local store. Family owned stores are very few and very far between and after tracking down several they had nothing the bigger stores wernt selling. I had much more luck with large stores setup on cheep land behind other shops that had the advertising and the logos and importantly the space to stock rare products and brands - but wernt part of a chain yet.
Quote:

and ask for muriatic acid


Wrong name. Ask for that in a hardware store here and you'll only get blank looks from the schoolchildren being paid 50p/hour to do most of the looking after of the shop, and bafflement and complete disinterest from the shop manager. If they look it up, they wont find it. Experience from places like the US translate very badly, maybe thats starting to become clear.

After combing somewhere between one and two dozen DIY shops in the area, I found just one selling 'Spirits of salt'.

Its more than likley most stores around people wont be selling this - I had to go a long way - but knowing the right name and more importantly the brand, someone asking for SPAN 'spirits of salt' would at least have slightly more than a chance in hell of getting them to try to order it.
Quote:

and if they don't have it already or cannot order it for you I would be VERY surprised.

Then truly you should visit the UK. It would be one long amaze-fest.
Quote:

And remember try not to look like a mad bomber....brush your hair or something!

I dont, nor have I ever made a bomb, so this should be a managable feat.
Quote:

Given that I have lots of other sources which weren't on your webpage...

The only reason you are even mentioning these, is becuase we are having this discussion. You are attempting to add percieved value to your argument of keeping things quiet. You wouldnt be offering anything normally, becuase so few people on forums get to know anyone else well enough to trust them do be doing what they are doing with the sources they have. Closed lists wont propagate well enough to be useful, and aside from this not helping people, it also means they wont be wide enough to be improved. Thats why it needs to be available to anyone that wants it, or its limited personal gain only.


Mr fish,
Point taken on the small amounts, but the actual numbers dont support you on this one. From most local garden centers ferrous sulphate is around 2.75ish, for example the GEM brand, or if memory serves J Arthur Bowers brand, both for 1Kg. Whereas rayco are currently charging 3.08 for just 100g. Even if ordered online the delivery costs can be small/nonexistant provided minimum order is satisfied. Giving a few typical prices from various types of seller would be much more useful and listing brands so people can be sure of purity would be ideal.

Dr Teeth - 15-10-2003 at 11:59

Quote:
Common explosive syntheses are much simpler than those for common recreational drugs and the raw materials for them are almost embarassingly abundant.


Has anyone told Marvin yet? :)
Quote:
Do you object to the whole project, or just the listing of specific suppliers?


I think it's redundant for the reasons I have outlined. A search engine and a yellow pages will turn up more sources than the webpage had.

Polverone - 15-10-2003 at 14:39

Has anyone told Marvin yet?! What are you talking about? I think Marvin can obtain most of the chemicals he needs already.

I think the common chemicals page could use more information, but it's a good start. It seems like it could be especially valuable in nations or regions where finding materials is more difficult. This means providing location information to go with sources for each chemical.

Google and a phone directory will turn up more sources than the page had - 90% of which will be junk (but you'll find this out only after wasting a lot of time with each one of the junk suppliers). The prices will be outrageous (even by lab chemical standards), the company doesn't want to deal with individuals, the company doesn't want to supply in quantities smaller than 100 KG drums, the company won't ship to other countries, etc. Even in the US, where getting chemicals isn't that hard, I'd love to see a comprehensive listing of places that will deal with individuals and that stock technical grade chemicals (at correspondingly low prices).

vulture - 16-10-2003 at 04:47

I wonder if Dr Teeth ever carried out an experiment himself. I expect atleast a full HNIW synth from you, since you can get every chemical within 5 min of searching.

Now really, stop cluttering this thread with useless arguments, you're just personally attacking people.

[Edited on 16-10-2003 by vulture]

So, what's the morale of the story?

chemoleo - 16-10-2003 at 13:45

I_am_a_fish, I just checked your website again, and indeed you have removed all the supplier information. Will you return this to the state it has previously been? Considering all the arguments (see above), I think you should. There are innumerable websites that combine supplier lists for various items, all of which could be used for legal or illegal purposes. It's up to the consumer/customer to decide for which purpose he or she would like to use those lists for, not up to the compiler of the list (you!). Therefore I think the responsibility is *not* yours, else all websites (and their corresponding compiled lists) regarding the sale of weapons (knifes, guns, peppersprays whatever) should be sued for providing easy access to all the ill-meaning people (thus half of America should be sued for providing easy means to get hold of weapons). Welcome to an information-censoring society, Dr. Teeth.
Apart from that, there is a proverb that goes 'Whats the point of reinventing the wheel' ? - meaning that, what's the point of everyone interested in chemistry having to go through the same process of extensive searches, and extensive search failures, while collective information could have saved all this time, which could have been used on something more constructive?? In my research job, rule number one is to find out whether someone has worked on your project/idea before; if so, you expand on other's people work to be creative yourself. Else you get stuck with repeating things done already, and you can flush your research career down the toilet...
Anyway, I think Marvin made a very good point there.

Amateur science wouldn't become ever more popular (although still, only a very minor fraction of people are interested) were it not for the broader accessibility of information and equipment. Thus, by limiting information (as suggested by Dr.Teeth), amateur scientist will (and should?) always form a small, self-preserving community (and this is exactly what he suggests, to preserve the interests of a small community interested in illegal substances, so that their illegal goals can be continued in the future ;) ) which walks along the borderline of ‘The Law’. Now, is that what we want? IMHO, amateur science should be considered a regular hobby, and hence be treated as such, where information is given out freely, and where it is up to the ‘hobby pursuer’ to decide what to do with this information. Guiltless unless proven guilty! Play around as much as you want with chemicals, explosives, drugs etc as long as 1) you don’t harm anyone/anything 2) you don’t make money with it (like selling drugs you made) and 3) you don’t harm yourself! Of course, 3) is up to the hobbyist himself… just like the odd weapons collector potentially harming himself–-which is considered an entirely legal hobby by the way!!
Thus, a compiled list of suppliers will hardly discredit the respective company because of its potential ‘abuses’, because there are too many ‘uses’ and ‘abuses’ with respect to the items being sold. Just like a knife/gun (guns, i.e. in the US ) supplier list could be considered dangerous to some and very useful to others (like some nerdy knife/gun-collecting community/forum).

Anyway, I was posting this just to find out whether I_am_a_fish would return his site to its original state. I hope you do; repressing information, and self-censorship is a very bad idea in a supposedly free and liberal society. I am speaking as a European here ;)


PS: By the way, you can get NaClO3 >99% in France (as you were asking for info on other countries), in virtually any gardening store. Sold in bulk (5kg plus), under the name ‘Chlorate de Soude’ in green metal containers.
PS 2: If you put your list up again, I_am_a_fish, are you going to add the www.kremer-pigmente.de site? See my last eml about this. I had a number of orders from there, and they do international shippings.
PS 3: regarding sodiumpersulphate- you can get it from www.conrad.de, which is Europe's biggest electronics supplier. 2kg for 19 euros. They have a number of other useful things :)

[Edited on 16-10-2003 by chemoleo]

I am a fish - 17-10-2003 at 08:32

1. I'm on the verge of returning the list of suppliers to the current website. Unless anyone can make a persuasive counter-argument, I'll do so in the next few days.

2. I've uploaded a larger demonstration of the proposed new website to...

http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk/chemicals/new.html

At present, all compounds of Titanium, Chromium, Vanadium, Manganese and Iron that I know suppliers of are listed.

Comments, additions and error reports would be appreciated.

Marvin - 19-10-2003 at 16:58

Looking very good. That page is something of a mammoth task. Still scraping suppliers together (me).

'Sodium persulphate' problem solved. Its a slang name and rather dissimilar to sodium perborate and sodium percarbonate which is what threw me. The proper name is 'sodium peroxydisulphate' and if Id have been smart enough just to look at the formula on the page Id have seen thats its not a neutral salt. Its essentially an anhydride between the sodium salt of caros acid and sodium hydrogen sulphate. Which is borderline feasable why my brain was telling me it was half sodium hydrogen sulphate. Think sodium pyrosulphate with a peroxy bond.

I can get most of the chemicals I'm currently interested in using but I'm short of a reasonably priced UK source for pyridine. I want to do a coupling reaction that has to be done in molten pyridine hydrochloride. No, bulk buying B vitamins is not an option ;) I have one source I think will sell to me, but its pricey.

[Edited on 20-10-2003 by Marvin]

It's back.

I am a fish - 23-10-2003 at 06:12

I've returned the supplier information to the website.

(I've also corrected the various mistakes that Marvin pointed out plus added some new suppliers)

Dr Teeth - 25-10-2003 at 08:49

Chemoleo:
Quote:
Apart from that, there is a proverb that goes 'Whats the point of reinventing the wheel' ? - meaning that, what's the point of everyone interested in chemistry having to go through the same process of extensive searches, and extensive search failures, while collective information could have saved all this time, which could have been used on something more constructive??

And there goes the clarion call of the lazyass. "..Can somebody else do it for meeee..it's diiiiffffficullllt....bwaaaaa.....bwaaaaa. I don't care if it potentially threatens sources as long as anything bad happens after I've got everything I need.."

Using that logic, what's the point in ever doing any experiment that has already been done before? It's been done before so we know it works...doing it again is a waste of time...right?
Quote:
Play around as much as you want with chemicals, explosives, drugs etc as long as 1) you don’t harm anyone/anything 2) you don’t make money with it (like selling drugs you made) and 3) you don’t harm yourself! Of course, 3) is up to the hobbyist himself… just like the odd weapons collector potentially harming himself–-which is considered an entirely legal hobby by the way!!

LOL!! Unfortunately the legislators and most of society don't agree with you.
Quote:
repressing information, and self-censorship is a very bad idea in a supposedly free and liberal society. I am speaking as a European here

and
Quote:
Therefore I think the responsibility is *not* yours, else all websites (and their corresponding compiled lists) regarding the sale of weapons (knifes, guns, peppersprays whatever) should be sued for providing easy access to all the ill-meaning people

I'm glad you raised that particular point. Being a European you will probably know already that in one particular part of the continent (UK) handguns, automatic and semi-automatic weapons, combat knives and CS and pepperspray are ALL banned! And guns in general are fairly heavily regulated throughout Europe.
Once again I make the point, the legislators know what's best for you.....it's their job.


Fish:
Do you know what 'referrer' means in the context of browser software? It's part of the information your browser gives to a website when you connect to it. Specifically it's the URL of the last page you viewed or linked from, and is given by your browser for the purposes of traffic analysis.

So the sites you have given links to will be aware of all traffic coming from your site (or from this site for links given here). IOW they will get to know that people interested in 'officially bad stuff', to use Polverones phrase, are visiting and perhaps buying from them. You've called it hyperdeath fer chrissakes making it attention grabbing to any webmaster who pays even the slightest attention to their traffic reports.
Some may not give a shit...but others might and may decide to cover their asses by making it harder for individuals to buy their stuff (eg traceable payments only and extended logging of customer details.)



....but hey I'm just a newbie,what do I know?

I am a fish - 25-10-2003 at 10:41

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Teeth
Fish:
Do you know what 'referrer' means in the context of browser software? It's part of the information your browser gives to a website when you connect to it. Specifically it's the URL of the last page you viewed or linked from, and is given by your browser for the purposes of traffic analysis.

So the sites you have given links to will be aware of all traffic coming from your site (or from this site for links given here). IOW they will get to know that people interested in 'officially bad stuff', to use Polverones phrase, are visiting and perhaps buying from them. You've called it hyperdeath fer chrissakes making it attention grabbing to any webmaster who pays even the slightest attention to their traffic reports.
Some may not give a shit...but others might and may decide to cover their asses by making it harder for individuals to buy their stuff (eg traceable payments only and extended logging of customer details.)



....but hey I'm just a newbie,what do I know?


No part of the site advocates anything illegal. Even if a company did assiduously follow up every referal in its server logs, there's no fundamental reason why it should object. After all, I'm putting business their way.

If a company did complain, I wouldn't hesitate to remove them from the list. However, I have yet to have a single complaint.