Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Garage Experiments With Trichloromethane.

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Haggis - 4-9-2003 at 19:19

Hello forumites, I bring you some info on my cheap and easy synthesis of trichloromethane.
The chemicals I used were standard 6% sodium hypochlorite solution and acetone. My bleach came from 'Chlorox Ultra', I believe, which was slightly yellow itself. I did a quick and dirty calculation from Rhodium and found out what I should use if I would like to keep it at 5% bleach. I used 6%, but I figured I'll keep some excess hypochlorite.
(Keep in mind folks, this is a 'nitro' away from Samosa's "Messy Jam-Jar experiments with Chloropicrin";) What did I use as my reaction vessel? A quart mason jar! No need for using graduations, just use the marks on the side of a beaker! I dump 500 ml of the solution into this large quart jar. I measure off 10mlof Acetone with a graduated cylinder and pour this in a film can for easy pouring. I take this out to the garage, as I was a bit paranoid about fumes being evolved. I slowly stir the acetone into the mixture with the metal wire used on those little flags people use to mark sprinklers in their yard. I stir this for around one minute and the solution is the same color as the bleach in the first place, yellowish. Then as a minute nears, the solution turns foggy, yet still yellow. Nearing 1:30-2:00, the solution starts turning white and foggy. At this point I felt the side of the jar, it was quite hot. After some odd expression I probably muttered, I ran to the kitchen, where there was an ice cream bucket left over from a party or some thing. This I quickly filled with cold water and placed the jar inside it. When I continued stirring, it felt almost 'frothy' when the wire was spun back and forth in the solution. I later determined this is when the trichloromethane is being formed. I kept stirring for around 5 more minutes and looked at the bottom of my jar. Upon tilting on its side, there was a nice, clear layer happily sitting on the bottom. Agitation of this blob provided tiny bubbles raising up from the rest of the mass. I presumed this was either chlorine coming out of solution of vaporized trichloromethane from the heat. I decanted off the whiteish liquid on top into the icecream bucket with the water. I then suctioned off the chloroform off the bottom. Hurray! The scent is similar to DCM, and there is really no flammability. A bit soaked in paper towel and held to a flame will sizzle slightly and occasionally give off a darker smoke/vapor. I do not know if this is the papertowel burning, or otherwise, but at one point, I sniffed lightly the fumes rising above it and was hit with an odd sensation of burning, pain, shock, suffocation, and general suprise. Bad fumes :) . I went back and repeated the experiment many times, and found that same results could be had with little input. Use a water bath for smaller batches like this, ice would be expensive (if bought). I would add reactants, stir till it is white and cloudy and do something else. Then, come occasionally and stir a bit. I ended up banging this off quite quickly, and could do a batch in about 10 minutes. Using the above amounts, I got yields around 4-7 ml. As said before, the yields arn't great, but everything is common and most have the chemicals lying around. Improvements can be made using 10% hypochlorite solution, which they have at pool suppliers and confirmed at my Ace or 'bleaching powder' which I have not encountered before.
Enjoy!

DDTea - 4-9-2003 at 20:21

Good stuff Haggis, and it does actually remind me a lot of my own experiment w/ Chloropicrin :D.

A few suggestions, though. Cooling is very important in this reaction. I don't know the correct temperatures off the back of my head, but I do know that higher temperatures cause Chloropicrin to decompose... And be careful with heat, decomposing Chloropicrin has been known to produce Phosgene.

Was the blob at the bottom of the mixture the Trichloromethane? I didn't understand that little section.

As far as the Hypochlorite solution goes, I was wondering if one could obtain concentrated Sodium Hypochlorite solutions from Calcium Hypochlorite sold in pool stores:

2 NaOH + Ca(OCl)2 --> 2 NaOCl + Ca(OH)2

If this works, you might be able to improve your yields. Of course, if this is used a means to obtain Trichloromethane as precursor, you would be using much more of the reactants; and with the cost of the reactants so low, the yields are tolerable.

archaelus - 4-9-2003 at 21:55

I am interested in trying this out myself, experimenting with it quite a bit. My main interest is in experimenting with the different concentrations yielded through varying methods of manufacture, and the effects of those concentrations on the subject. I have no equiptment at all, so I'll have to run around town tomorrow morning and improvise with whatever I can round up. The main thing is the vacuum used in "sucking out" the bottom portion.

Now, with the manufacture of certain chemicals, the bottom portion cannot contain any part of the top portion. If they are dumped into the container together, you have yourself a nice purple cloud where your house used to be. Is this the same with tricloromethane manufacture? In other words, how carefully does the vacuuming of the bottom substance need to be watched? Will it continue to batch if a small percentage of the top portion is vaccumed out as well?

Excellent garage experiment, I must say, and very, very applicable! :cool:

Archaelus

DDTea - 4-9-2003 at 23:19

I don't imagine you would even need a vacuum pump to do this. Haggis did this whole experiment using the "jam-jar" methods, which I find very useful.

So, archaelus, if you would like to experiment, all you should need are the reactants, a mason jar or two, and an eye dropper. The eye dropper would be used to extract the bottom layer of the mixture; at least, that is how I did it when I wanted to extract a layer of Chloropicrin.

I don't think that having a bit of NaOCl solution mixed in with the Trichloromethane will cause a colored-smoke disaster in your house ;) ... however, if you want to use it in other reactions, you may want to find some means of purifying the Trichloromethane.

Also, I forgot to mention. If you will be storing your Chloroform, make sure you add a bit (i think 1-2%) of Methanol to it, and keep it away from direct sunlight! If you fail to do this, dangerous Phosgene fumes will develop at the top of your bottle- ready to harm you as you open it. The methanol retards this process.

shadeT - 5-9-2003 at 03:01

does anyone has some information on trichlorethylene ? i have about 3 kilo and i don't know what to do with it ...

it's useful

Polverone - 5-9-2003 at 08:32

Use it in place of other halogenated solvents, if you just want to dissolve things. If you can build better apparatus than I, or are simply cleverer, it should be possible to convert it to chloroacetic acid. Industrially, this is done by hydrolyzing it with 70% (IIRC) H2SO4. I tried to convert myself, but industry works at higher temperatures than I can (since I don't have any pressure vessels), and I was tragically forced to cut my experiments short by distractions like "school" and "moving." I still think it's a promising area of investigation, since chloroacetic acid has numerous interesting uses.

chemoleo - 5-9-2003 at 09:21

shadeT - trichloroethylene - sniff it a bit and u know what u *could* use it for :)

shadeT - 5-9-2003 at 10:53

well it does have a realy fine smell ... ;) nice for sniffin' ... and polverone , thanks for info

Haggis - 5-9-2003 at 12:56

As a followup, I will say that the layer on the bottom was indeed trichloromethane. Also, I will say to stuff the stuff in a glass bottle, as it corrodes plastics containers nicely. With this experiment, I acutally found a use for my products, and a productive, legal one at that! A friend's little brother had to collect bugs for his biology class. What else to use for the killing jar besides chloroform? It works very nicely, and is a lot quicker than the 'acetone free nailpolish remover' (ethyl acetate) that they told them to use. Just a side note, using the method I outlined, a 96 ounce bottle of 6% bleach will yield around 50mls. This is around a dollar, raw chemicals, including the acetone.

archaelus - 5-9-2003 at 13:25

Alright, I've obtained the materials, and I am about to start cooking!!! In picking up 10% hypochlorite, I noticed tablets that were about 70 percent hypochlorite. Now, that made me smile.:D

I think that using tablets has been brushed upon, but not fully discussed. Assuming that such is the direct active ingredient, the more the better, right? (I told I'm an amateur).

As far as cooling goes... what is the max temperature I should let it get? According to Haggis, simple cold water will do. I'd really be annoyed if I killed myself trying to make this.

Archaelus

vulture - 5-9-2003 at 13:30

No, you wouldn't be annoyed, you would be bored to death. :)

Haggis - 5-9-2003 at 13:49

Using cold water will work fine, but keep in mind to 'feel' the temperature and make sure it doesn't get too high. High temperatures shouldn't kill you, only reduce your yield. I've noticed that during general handling and for some reason decanting, I occasionally get a stinging in my eyes. Take care of this.

archaelus - 5-9-2003 at 14:01

Alright, the materials are batching right now! It is going through the phases you mentioned... it is currently at the yellow, milky stage. I was surprised at the violent reaction when I initially mixed the acetone with the hypochlorite.

Now, I don't know if I measured off exactly 10 mL acetone. It may have been closer to 15. What results can I expect from this?

Archaelus

archaelus - 5-9-2003 at 14:05

If too high of a temperature will more or less make the materials batch more quickly, then will too low of temperatures slow or even halt the batching process?

And does trichloromethane cause skin irritation?

Archaelus

archaelus - 5-9-2003 at 15:05

Ok, experiment complete and failed. Rather than ending up with Chloroform, the bleach and the acetone just seperated. The mixture never turned white and nothing got frothy. However, at first touch of warmth on the glass, I put the jar in icewater, which may have retarted or halted the batching. I think I'll wait 2 minutes next time before dunking... let the mixture get nice and hot.

Archaelus

conclusion

archaelus - 6-9-2003 at 15:09

I was wrong!!!

Due to the fact that the froth wasn't quite as frothy as I had imagined or that the solution hadn't turned as white as milk, I assumed that the acetone and sodium hypochlorite had seperated, the acetone moving to the bottom of the jar. I extracted what I believed to be the acetone, just in case, and putting it on a rag and taking a good inhalation, ther was then no doubt in my mind that the semen-looking substance was indeed trichloromethane.

Having never been kidnapped by use of chloroform, I was surprised at my reaction to the vapors. I was drawn to it, wanting to hold it to my mouth and let myself drown in it. Then again, that could just be my chemical dependancy kicking in. However, if this is normal, I can see why it is so effective as a knock-out agent.

Thank you all for the suggestions and help. This was indeed a worthwhile experiment. I see I'm going to have a lot of fun on this list.

Archaelus

conclusion #2

archaelus - 8-9-2003 at 20:15

Having manufactured a useable amount of trichloromethane, I stored it in a clear glass bottle with a cork. Aside from noticing the cork being eaten away by the fumes alone, there was another interesting observation: the product had changed color and texture. Previously, it was a bit white and a bit viscous (sp), and looking at it today, it is transparent and a good deal of the viscosity has gone down. I was storing it in a hot garage, and think that such may be the reason for the change, although the only warnings I've come across is to not expose it to excessive sunlight or oxygen, as such produces phosgene. At what temperature should chloroform be stored?

As far as the applications of chloroform, how much is needed to "knock out" an hypothetical human subject weighing approximately 120 pounds? How long does it take to "kick in"? And how long until they naturally revive (assuming that they are not in the 1 of 1000 that die from it)?

Archaelus

DDTea - 8-9-2003 at 20:47

Hmm... To quote material safety data sheets: As part of good chemical hygiene, unnecessary contact with any chemical should be avoided! ;)

I would not go about trying to breathe in Trichloromethane to see the results... While the "ouch" test is good in some cases, some compounds can cause brain damage or death if you try to huff them! Surely there are other ways to test if you have Chloroform- none that I can think of off the back of my head though.

I don't think that Chloroform is the best "knock-out" chemical; I remember NBK2000 talking about a time when he held a rag of Chloroform to his face for a minute, breathing deeply, and he was quite conscious.

Then there was the time he got a little dose HCN, and was knocked out instantly. But of course, managing HCN doses seems a bit more tricky than doing the same with Chloroform :P

deep breathing

archaelus - 9-9-2003 at 09:41

I wasn't planning on experimenting with chloroform on myself. It can cause brain, liver, and kidney tissue damage (according to various sources) as well as the possibility of death, so since I like myself more than I like anyone else, I've found someone else to test it on. It's amazing how self-destructive some people are, so willing to do anything for a simple thrill or sexual fantasy!

I haven't been able to find anything on nbk2000... the only site containing anything having been shut down. Any suggestions?

Archaelus

DDTea - 12-9-2003 at 10:47

no suggestions- but I just remember a story he told on E&W, about his own little adventure with Cyanides...

He dropped a tiny amount (unmeasured) of sodium Cyanide into a test tube, then poured in HCl. He held his thumb over the lip, and mixed the reactants a bit. But, the pressure built up quite quickly, and caused him to lose grip with his thumb, thus causing a puff of HCN to go straight up his nose.

He passed out for a few minutes, but came out alive. The good thing about HCN is that it doesn't cause long-term injury- if you recover, it's as if nothing happened :D. Just make sure to get fresh air.

Trichloromethane

KaptainKrap - 14-9-2003 at 13:28

It may interest you to know that trichloromethane can be oxidised in air in the presence of light to carbonyl chloride, with the elimination of hydrogen chloride. This may be the cause of that burning smell in the first post. COCl2 is not corrosive or dangerous until it contacts moisture. It will then hydrolyse, producing two HCl molecules and one of CO2. Just a tip should you want the phosgene, use an oxidiser or bubble oxygen through the TCM and then cool any gases coming off well below 8*C. The liquid coming off will be phosgene. This rcn. goes slowly but is worth it if next door has a pesky, apparatus upsetting cat.

DDTea - 14-9-2003 at 17:34

well, for our purposes, COCl2 is always dangerous since our respiratory system seems to be lined with moisture :).

But, I have been looking for a route to Phosgene, other than the CCl4 method or CO + Cl2- both of which are impractical for me... I have considered oxidizing CCl3, and so I thank you very much for this new bit of information! I now have a new reason for Chloroform.

BromicAcid - 14-9-2003 at 18:30

Just for completeness I would just like to say a word about the reaction. It is a haloform reaction, it oxidizes methyl groups directly attached to the carbon that makes up the double bond to oxygen in a ketone. It takes place under basic conditions in the presence of halogen so the hypochlorite salts are perfect for this. When the reaction is over you have the oxidized ketone minus one carbon which in the case of acetone would be CH3COOH but you could use say Methyl-ethyl ketone and get CH3CH2COOH so it's good for making carboxylic acids (In the above reaction they would end up as their sodium salts) so the overall reaction goes:

CH3COCH3 + 3NaOCl ----> CH3COONa + CHCl3 + 2NaOH

With some NaCl and such thrown in for flavor. By the way, I don't think the above reaction is entirely correct... I've got different numbers in my notes but I don't know where they came from. I'll update my post if I find the source again. So basically you can use any basic enviorment with free halogen thrown in, so you can get bromoform and iodoform but I don't think fluoroform, free fluorine would not take well to an aqueous enviorment, also it is a decent way to make carboxylic acids.

trinitrotoluene - 20-9-2003 at 13:21

Today I tried to make chlorform, accident happand...

In a 500ml erlin flask I added 100grams of Ca(OCl)2. I then added 60ml of water to moisten it up. I added 44ml of acetone, I have a rubber stopper, with 5mm of glass tubing attached to it into a 125ml receiving flask. When I added the acetone in I quickly put on the stopper. It was a violent reaction, before I knew it the stopper blow off, and I was sparyed with calcium hypochlorate, I was lucky I wore my goggles, and i was engulfed in a cloud of chlorfom and acetone, I got away, but I felt really weak and dizzy. After an hour later I'm still feeling the ill effects, feeling lightheaded, and have aheadach.

DDTea - 20-9-2003 at 18:47

Here's what I think you did wrong, TNT. First of all, you had an 11.6 M Ca(OCl)2 solution- that is very strong! On top of that, you added your Acetone all at once (unless I've misinterpreted what you wrote). Bad idea! Don't rush the reaction, especially with such a strong solution. Take your time, and be sure to keep the reaction nice and cool.

Theoretic - 11-11-2003 at 07:52

I was once flicking through a book - a dictionary of science and technology. In the section for chloroform it stated the technical preparation as being alcohol + + calcium hypochlorite. Here's the equation I concocted myself:
2C2H5OH + 5Ca(ClO)2=>2CCl3H + + CaCO3 + 2CaCl2 + Ca(OH)2 + 4H2O.
I wanted to do it myself with technical azeotropic alcohol and bleach which contains 6% NaClO and asked my dad for help, but he rejected it altogether - said that I couldn't do it inside a house. I wonder if chloroform really could evaporate during preparation?
Fortunately he works in a place with a lab, so maybe I could carry it out after all.
:cool:
2C2H5OH (1.84g.) + 10NaClO(14.9g. - 228.00ml. 6% bleach) =>
2CCl3H (4.78g.) + 2Na2CO3 + 4NaCl + 2NaOH + 4H2O. :cool:

[Edited on 11-11-2003 by Theoretic]

[Edited on 11-11-2003 by Theoretic]

Theoretic - 16-11-2003 at 07:52

Well, what can I say? NULL AND VOID. A failure. I've done it at home, my dad wouldn't let me do it in the lab. My materials were ">5% Sodium Hypochlorite" bleach and azeotropic alcohol. So, I start dropping the alcohol slowly into the bleach (the whole lot in a 100 ml flask). I see convection. My initial thoughts were that it's caused by the heat of the reaction, but no. Nothing. I make a water bath, fill it with boiling water and put the flask in it. it had a low capacity though, so i changed the water periodically. I kept it that way for 40 minutes or so, and nothing happened.
Morale: having only impure dilute crap and the equation, you can't carry out a reaction with a C-C bond cleavage.
Anyone with calcium hypochlorite (solid or concentrated solution) and a proper water bath volunteer to do it? ;)

Theoretic - 20-11-2003 at 08:24

Cheer up! I found a preparation of chloroform from calcium hypochlorite and acetone. It's in Russian, but don't worry about my translating skills. :D First preparation of Ca(ClO)2 is described. I calculated that 28.6 g of Ca(ClO)2 is made. In the mixture there's also 30-40 ml water (keep this in mind). Then:
"Put the prepared bleaching powder in the flask of the apparatus pictured on pic.2. Also put there 75 ml of water. Put a mixture of 10 ml of water and 10 ml of acetone in the dropping funnel. The end of the dropping funnel must be lower than the level of liquid in the flask. Put 10 ml of water in the receiver to preserve the prepared chloroform from evaporation and to guarantee it's purification from acetone. Start introducing acetone drop by drop into the flask, heating the flak with the aid of a flask heater. If the reaction is too vigorous and the reaction mixture starts splattering into the reciever, heating of the flask should be stopped."
Then the drying and distilling of the chloroform is described.
At http://www.chem.msu.su:8081/rus/teaching/aleshin/chcl3.html are the drawings and the original text. :cool:

Theoretic - 21-11-2003 at 08:21

OK, I did sound too cheerful, because while I was typing about acetone + Ca(ClO)2 while thinking about alcohol + Ca(ClO)2. :mad::mad::D:D But with definite instructions the yields will be improved. I surfed a chemistry book recently, and yes, it is: (CH3)2CO + 3NaClO => CHCl3 + CH3COONa + 2NaOH. Also I know of a reaction in which carboxylic acids are fused with alkali hydroxides, and an alkane and alkali carbonate form. So trichloroacetic acid + NaOH => chloroform + sodium carbonate. :cool:

Whoa Nelly!

Hermes_Trismegistus - 20-12-2003 at 22:50

Quote:
Originally posted by Samosa


I don't think that Chloroform is the best "knock-out" chemical; I remember NBK2000 talking about a time when he held a rag of Chloroform to his face for a minute, breathing deeply, and he was quite conscious.
:P




I will not say I disbeleive NBK2000 because no-one ever lies on these forums, but I will say that NBK2000 is a tough son-of-a-bitch. I took a couple good whiff off of the soaked end of a Q-tip............WOW!!!

I am wacked! Sleepy, heavy eyelids, feeling sorta drunken and dull-headed.

Perhaps NBK2000 has some sort of cross tolerance that helped to resist chloroform, because I weigh well over 255 and it hit me like a hammer. The only difference I could see is that I don't use any sort of drugs at all, nor do I ever drink.

Still....I must say, chloroform has this strange allure to it. Almost a magnetic draw to continue breathing in the lovely vapours. Like the waters of Lethe...:P

P.S. burning the substance on a watchglass produce a very black smoke and an odor very similar to the somewhat metallic smell of a roll of used paper caps.

Also...repetition of exposure to fumes definitely seemed to produce a tolerance to the narcotic (sleep inducing) effects.

[Edited on 21-12-2003 by Hermes_Trismegistus]

BromicAcid - 21-12-2003 at 07:25

Seeing as how this thread is dedicated to experiments with chloroform I thought that it might be interesting to metion that the interaction of chloroform with acetone in the presence of solid KOH, NaOH, or CaOH, violently leads to the formation of 1,1,1,-trichloro-2-hydroxy-2-methypropane. An interesting chemical, although like I just said, the reaction is violent.

the reaction wasn't violent for me...

blazter - 21-12-2003 at 12:33

I have previously posted my experiment to produce what I hoped to be chlorobutanol. It was done at low temps IIRC and used a makeshift overhead stirrer to aid the reaction. The reactants were chloroform, acetone, and NaOH. In the end I got a few grams of sticky crystals which had a strong 'camphor' odor. The fact that I didn't get a clean crop of crystals suggests that a mixture of things were formed, though I am not sure what these different products were.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 29-12-2003 at 22:54

Quote:
Originally posted by BromicAcid
Just for completeness I would just like to say a word about the reaction. It is a haloform reaction, it oxidizes methyl groups directly attached to the carbon that makes up the double bond to oxygen in a ketone. It takes place under basic conditions in the presence of halogen so the hypochlorite salts are perfect for this. When the reaction is over you have the oxidized ketone minus one carbon which in the case of acetone would be CH3COOH but you could use say Methyl-ethyl ketone and get CH3CH2COOH so it's good for making carboxylic acids (In the above reaction they would end up as their sodium salts) so the overall reaction goes:

CH3COCH3 + 3NaOCl ----> CH3COONa + CHCl3 + 2NaOH

With some NaCl and such thrown in for flavor. By the way, I don't think the above reaction is entirely correct... I've got different numbers in my notes but I don't know where they came from. I'll update my post if I find the source again. So basically you can use any basic enviorment with free halogen thrown in, so you can get bromoform and iodoform but I don't think fluoroform, free fluorine would not take well to an aqueous enviorment, also it is a decent way to make carboxylic acids.



pardon, but would not CH3COONa ----> CH3COO- + Na+. Na+ + H2O

CH3COO- is the anion of the weak acid, acetic acid, therefore its conjugate base is stronger and will react with water to produce more OH- ions.

maybe...?

Hermes_Trismegistus - 29-12-2003 at 23:00

Quote:
Originally posted by BromicAcid
Seeing as how this thread is dedicated to experiments with chloroform I thought that it might be interesting to metion that the interaction of chloroform with acetone in the presence of solid KOH, NaOH, or CaOH, violently leads to the formation of 1,1,1,-trichloro-2-hydroxy-2-methypropane. An interesting chemical, although like I just said, the reaction is violent.


with chloroform stored in a bottle with any aqueous sol'n floating on top containing NaOH it would be possible that the water in the aqueous sol'n would evaporate off. leaving solid NaOH right? then say you had a little excess acetone in sol'n you could have an unwanted reaction....:o

so I am thinking that I'll wash my chloroform with several volumes of water before storage.:D

DDTea - 29-12-2003 at 23:40

Don't forget to add a small amount of Methanol to your Chloroform before storage, and to keep it out of light! These are important to prevent the decomposition to Phosgene, as tends to happen in storage. The Phosgene forms a cloud at the top of the container, and the operator tends to be exposed to it on opening the container...hence many stories of workers using Chloroform getting sick.

storing chloroform / trichloromethane

Hermes_Trismegistus - 3-1-2004 at 18:32

I do not have ground glass stoppered reagent bottles

I have found (after significant evaporation losses) that storing the chloroform in glass jar/bottle under a layer of about a half inch of (preferrably distilled) water both vastly reduces losses and increases safety. It's probably a common trick but it was a definite EUREKA! moment for me

I am still storing the container cold but have found that if the water freezes that the plug of ice sinks a little into the chloroform and then the chloroform evaporates off the top again (albeit more slowly because of reduced temperatures)

[Edited on 4-1-2004 by Hermes_Trismegistus]

The_Davster - 4-1-2004 at 18:11

I made some today, 500mL 5.25% NaOCl bleach solution, and about 4/5 of a film canister full of aetone(dident feel like washing out a graduated cylinder). I had no means to store it because I had no suitable glass bottle, my yield was about 5-7mL. what has been everyone elses yield who has tried it?

Also any tips on getting all the small droplets of CHCl3 into one big blob(I had 1-2mm droplets covering the bottom of the beaker and 1 big blob), I had a few extraction problems because of this.

perhaps read both threads full through next time!

Hermes_Trismegistus - 5-1-2004 at 00:48

Quote:
Originally posted by rogue chemist
I made some today, 500mL 5.25% NaOCl bleach solution, and about 4/5 of a film canister full of aetone(dident feel like washing out a graduated cylinder


Film Canister is approximately two fluid ounces, far too much acetone for 500mls Chlorox.

I remember someone mentioning that to be a BAD thing indeed!

The_Davster - 5-1-2004 at 17:35

Im not too good with estimating volumes, today I put 10 ml of water in a film canister and it was much less than I had origionally thought(about 1cm in bottom).
The batch I made I did not bother keeping because I had no suitable storage containers, or methanol, so I was not worring about contamination that could cause problems during long term storage. Next time, when I make a batch that I will keep/store I will make sure to take all the necessary safety precautions.-this was essentially a test batch before I get my amber glass bottle.
And I did read the entire thread many times before making the CHCl3.


[Edited on 6-1-2004 by rogue chemist]

Haggis - 5-1-2004 at 19:19

The reason you got roughly the same yields as I did with around 4 times as much acetone is because the availible chlorine for the haloform reaction was used up. If you had a larger concentration of hypochlorite, you would, of course, get more. I would just say add more acetone and get the max, then adding too little, and not getting what you can. I wouldn't think that it would be too bad, excess of acetone, it would just mix with the water and be held up in the water from the bleach.

purification

The_Davster - 5-1-2004 at 20:27

To prepare CHCl3 for storage, would it be sufficient to mix with about 200mL water, stir very well, let it settle to the bottom again and then re-extract and add methanol? Hopefully this would remove any impurities imparted to it from the reaction mix.

BromicAcid - 5-1-2004 at 20:45

If there is too much acetone in the mix some of the acetone only gets partially halogenated and will not form the chloroform because, well, although each substitution makes the molecule more susceptible if there is a great excess it doesn't matter how much more susceptible because there will be no more hypochlorite left. Too much hypochlorite and reactions start to happen with the chloroform to form carbon tetrachloride. Stoichiometric amounts are necessary for the highest yield as is efficient cooling, the reaction does heat up and the boiling point of chloroform is not negligible under these circumstances.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 7-1-2004 at 19:49

Quote:
Originally posted by rogue chemist
Im not too good with estimating volumes, today I put 10 ml of water in a film canister and it was much less than I had origionally thought

no suitable storage containers, or methanol, .
And I did read the entire thread many times before making the CHCl3.


[Edited on 6-1-2004 by rogue chemist]


I beleive you, Its hard to keep everything in your head at once, I keep the Lab Notebook as constant companion in Lab, hate when I forget whether I NEED to perform the next step, or whether I just DID perform that step.:mad:

anyway, you don't need methanol to stabilize the chloroform, ethanol will do you, and is the additive normally used to stabilize (Merck Index ~1997)

The_Davster - 9-2-2004 at 19:06

Well, I have purchased an amber glass bottle(50mL) and already havemethanol, will this be sufficient to complety stop the reaction to phosgene or will there still be some phosgene produced?- And if not is there anything else I can do because I really dont want any phosgene around:(

BromicAcid - 9-2-2004 at 19:19

I believe if the chloroform is anhydrous then there will be basically zero phosgene produced in that enviorment.

The_Davster - 11-2-2004 at 20:28

I'm not really sure how to dry liquids.
Would It be sufficient to add NaOH or NH4NO3(only dessicants I have at the present time) and then filter to remove any water present?-or am I missing something obvious here which would prevent this from working?

Oh Yeah!

Hermes_Trismegistus - 11-2-2004 at 20:46

You often don't actually want to admix the dessicant and the substance to be dried. Because sometimes the substance (chloroform in this case) may dissolve, or react with the substance you are drying.

Check for compatibilities

;)

Ramiel - 9-3-2004 at 00:08

Yea, in this case especially, TCM is incompatible with strong bases.

I've come to report on the TCM via ethyl alchohol idea:

I dissolved 30g of Calcium Hypochloride in 500mL of water (you guessed it! in a jam jar!). The mix was heated, cooled, and filtered to leave only the CaHypochloride soln. To this was added a stoichiometric ratio of Ca(OCl)<sub>2</sub> 6:1 C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>5</sub>OH in the form of absolute ethanol diluted to 50%. the ethanol was added dropwise, but no increace in tempurature was noted.

I covered the stinking mix and left it for an hour.
One hour later it was dinner time.
Two hours later, no real difference was noted.
Twenty hours later, there was a scummy layer, a colloidal substance that looked like fluffy crystals, but no imiscible layer of potential TCM. The mixture was pleasant to smell, and I was tempted to just keep drinking in the vapors.

here is what F.I.Luknistii had to say in the 75th volume of "Chemical Reviews" about chloral:

"When ethanol is heated with calcium hypochlorite, one obtains chloral and also chloroform, dichloroacetaldehyde, and the hemiacetal of chloroacetaldehyde. Ethyl hypochlorite was proposed as the intermediate chlorinating agent in this reaction and acetaldehyde (with vinylic alcohol) as intermediates. At 20" trichloroacetic acid is obtained in-stead of chloral."
(Thanks to polverone I think for the PDF)

I tested the solution with resorsinol and the colloidal crap turned from white to a bright orange - clearly discernable from the resorsianl. I propose that the flocculant material was in fact chloral (CCl<sub>3</sub>CHO), and the sweet, ester smelling scummy top layer is a mystery.

I really dislike the whole reaction - a little huff (axehandle save my lungs) knocked me out, I slept for an awful 16 hours with bad dreams and delerium. I have serious tremmors - which are brought about in my case only by chemical inhibition.

I will not try heating absolute ethanol with excess solid calcium hypochloride, but I suspect that this reaction would yeild a lot of chloroform and chloral.

[Edited on 9-3-2004 by Ramiel]

Quantum - 27-3-2004 at 19:06

I made some trichloromethane today. 500ml of store NaOCl(6%) was dumped into my 500ml flask(no jam jar for me) 10ml of CH<sub>3</sub>CCH<sub>3</sub> was poured into the flask and I dropped a thermometer in the top. I stirred the flask contents around and watched the thermometer rise up to about 40C where I then placed the flask in the ice/water pan I had made. The reaction cooled and I watched TV for awhile. I poured the whitish liquid out into the ice bath and saw an oily liquid form at the bottom. I extrated it with my shitty plastic seringe(Soon I will get real pipits!) I placed a little on a strip of paper and took a good wiff. I smelt a strange smell that did not smell like NaOCl or Propanone. However it did not have the effect that people said it does for me. I did not feel dizy and after letting fumes rise up into my eye my eye on felt mildly strange. I may have got a contaminated or low yeild because of dyes in the bleach or not letting the reaction go long enough. I have no amber glass bottle so I poured the trichloromethane out at the back of my property in the woods. I should have done a density per ml check I guess.

The_Davster - 18-4-2004 at 13:54

I recently obtained some 65% Ca(OCl)2. I tried using it to make chloroform. I used 41g of the hpochlorite and 10mL of acetone. I Disolved the hypochlorite in the minimum amount of water necessary and while swirling in a RBF under a stream of cold tap water I added the acetone drop by drop over a period of 10min. I let the reaction sit in cold water for about 20 min. when I got back there was a lot of white precipitate(calcium hydroxide), and the distinctive scent of chloroform. But unfortunatly the chloroform is stuck in that layer of calcium hydroxide:(. How can I get it out? Filtration did not work, I tried adding nitric acid to a sample to dissolve the hydroxide but that caused chlorine to be released and the small ammount of chloroform that became obvious after the nitric addition is bright yellow:mad:.

[Edited on 18-4-2004 by rogue chemist]

Haggis - 18-4-2004 at 16:26

First, you used too much hypochlorite.

To extract the chloroform, you could distill it out. Another way would be to add large amounts of water to dissolve the hypochlorite. Add, stir, decant, repeat. Eventually, you will have the chloroform sitting on the bottom. At this point, it can by placed in a seperatory funnel, and let the chloroform droplets settle out, and seperate.

The_Davster - 18-4-2004 at 17:07

Too much hypochlorite? hmm did I do the stoich wrong?
2CH3COCH3 + 3Ca(OCl)2--> 2CHCl3 + 2Ca(OH)2+(CH3COO)2Ca -btw it was not 41g of pure calcium hypochlorite, it was 41g of 65% hypochlorite, so 26.1g of actual hypochlorite. I started the calculation for how much hypochlorite to use from 10 mL acetone(d=0.707). The problem was not separating the chloroform from unreacted hypochlorite but from the insoluble calcium hydroxide.

BromicAcid - 18-4-2004 at 17:30

To seperate your Ca(OH)2 the solution is simple, acidify, mix in HCl till all your Ca(OH)2 goes away.

Step by step!

Hermes_Trismegistus - 28-4-2004 at 09:12

Quote:
Originally posted by rogue chemist
. But unfortunatly the chloroform is stuck in that layer of calcium hydroxide:(. How can I get it out? :mad:.
[Edited on 18-4-2004 by rogue chemist]


It sounds like you have a mixture of three compounds here. Hypochlorite/mostly water.........CaOH.........CHCl3

so first decant off the Water/hypo until you have a layer of chloroform with hydroxide precipitate.

Now, place your product into a taller/thinner vessel, batch size dependent. If you are working microscale, use a test tube, if you have more, use a grad. cyl. or a champagne flute, or whatever is handy.

Now "centrifuge" , if you have a test tube with a stopper and a lip you can swing it around on a string (just don't go too fast) if you are using something else then just hold it in your hand at the end of your arm in the 6'oclock postition and gently swing back and forth from 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock position for a couple minutes while watching the boob tube.

If it settles on top, eyedropper it off, if it settles on bottom, eyedropper the product off. If you don't have an eyedropper...pick one up.

P.S. I've never used the Bleaching powder Method personally, But I know that with other hypochlorite's it does take about an hour and a half for the big bead of chloroform to settle out at the bottom of the reaction vessel eh! longer if you have it at room temperature (but I assumed you knew that and had already let it sit for that initial settling stage and were still having problems)

The_Davster - 28-4-2004 at 14:31

Thanks Hermes, I did let it settle out in ice water for about an hour. I also have about 2 dozen eyedroppers(thanks to an ordering mishap). But at least this gives me an excuse to build a homemade centrifuge:D

Darkfire - 6-6-2004 at 14:17

I just did this with household bleach and acetone, Now i used 945ml of bleach and 25ml acetone. its been 1.5 hours now. I have athin clear layer on top, which seems to be water, then a cloudy not milky whiteish layer, and then a white ppt on bottom, no chcl3 what did i do wrong here?

edit been 30 mintues, now theres no layers just one big volume of clear liquid, the reaction did take place, as from yellowy to milky then to clear...

edit been antoher 30, i poured the liquid into a baggy and the white ppt stayed in the jar, i took a wif of the ppt and a ml or 2 of remaining liquid and it was a sweet smell that reminded me of chloropicrin a bit, sweat, clean, and strong. I took several big wifs and i got no sign of any incapassitation.(sp)

Pics are here http://darkfire.myftp.org/fun/chemistry/chloroform/ , the finsihed amount was the bottom few mls of the baggy, but it wasnt chloroform...


[Edited on 6-6-2004 by Darkfire]

Haggis - 6-6-2004 at 19:16

I have also noticed the product will differ depending on what your bleach source is. Some bleach yeilds easy to see yeilds, while others give sparkly white foamy like yeilds.

Here is my trick when you have the latter of the two. Suck it up in a pipet or get it in a buret. The bubbles will rise to the top, and the chloroform will sink, you can the seperate the two.

I have not discovered what exactly causes that, but I assume that it is an additive to the bleach that is present in only some brands.

My rule of thumb is to buy the cheapest bleach you can find. It won't have any fancy sufactants or the like, but will be as close to pure hypochlorite as you can get from bleach.

Chloroform should smell thick, heavy, sweet. I have always thought it was pleasant and relaxing. I pity you if it smells like chloropicrin though, but I can somewhat see where you are coming from, but without the stinging 'spike' that the odor of chloropicrin has.

Rinse out the jar with the suspect chloroform with water, then pour into a vessel so that you can see the chloroform layer on the bottom. If you have any yeild, it should be in here, as you noted you didn't get any from the portion you poured out.

Darkfire - 6-6-2004 at 19:58

What do u think that white ppt was? Its only reminisent of chloropicrin, its did smell pleasent and sweet, i think i made some but it just didnt work out. Could my ratio of bleach to acetone be the problem?


[Edited on 7-6-2004 by Darkfire]

thunderfvck - 7-6-2004 at 02:03

Darkfire, how did you add the acetone to the bleach? Slowly? Was the bleach cold? Perhaps the higher temperature could account for some other product formation but I've never noticed anything like this. It's most certainly an additional something that the makers of your bleach had put in. And I don't think the ratio of acetone:bleach has any significance on other products being formed.

Anddddddddd....!

Forgive me if this has been asked before but why does the solution turn milky white and then clear up? This is concerning the NaOCl reaction pathway. Someone had responded to this question earlier in another thread and had said it was chloroform. But I don't really think that's correct...since the chloroform is certainly there after the reaction is done and the solution is clear. So what gives?

The products are sodium acetate, water, chloroform, hydroxide...Am I missing something here? Does the sodium acetate have trouble dissolving at first, or something, and this is what causes the white color? Is there some kind of transition state that <i>slowly</i> goes to completion?

And one more!

NaOCl + H2O --> HOCl + OH
HOCl + CH3COCH3 --> CHCl3 + 3H2O

Is this what is actually happening towards the formation of chloroform?

Thanks!

[Edited on 7-6-2004 by thunderfvck]

[Edited on 7-6-2004 by thunderfvck]

The_Davster - 7-6-2004 at 14:14

thunderfvck: I think the reason it turnes white is because that is the chloroform forming everywhere in the solution and then settles out and the solution becomes clear again. As for the yellowish color I am taking a guess, It is when there is chloroform and bleach in the mix making it appear yellow, but once all the bleach has reacted, the mix turns white. And your question about the actual reaction I believe was answered in the first or secong pages of this thread.

[Edited on 7-6-2004 by rogue chemist]

Darkfire - 7-6-2004 at 14:28

The reason why the ratio is important is explained earlyer on in this thread. I slowly added the acetone to iced bleach.

thunderfvck - 7-6-2004 at 14:28

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I noticed that the reaction was answered. But BromicAcid (I believe it was him) mentioned NaOCl. I want to know if it's in fact HOCl that's reacting.

I am still not comfortable with the answer you've given with regards to the white color. Chloroform is clear, and so is the NaOCl solution (mostly anyway). Neither are opaque yet it reaches a point where it is totally white. Why would the chloroform appear to be white?

BromicAcid - 7-6-2004 at 15:52

Solution is white due to chloroform microbubbles. Take for example oil and water, shake them together enough and they emulsify with some help. The chloroform is being formed by the molecule so it is basically precipitating from a colloidal solution that it is making on the spot, as the microspheres touch and grow larger they begin to precipitate but during the "White" stage it is the refraction across the surface of infinite very very tiny bubbles that clouds the solution.

As for whether it is HOCl or NaOCl that does the reaction I use NaOCl as my example because it saves some typing work, in solution it is going to go to NaOH and HOCl due to HOCl being such a weak acid and it therefore accounts for the base necessary for a haloform reaction. Pages on the haloform reaction:

Chapter 18: Haloform reaction
CHAPTER IV

The second link has a very nice illustration of the haloform reaction halfway down the paper with HOCl as the halogenating agent, I'm sure you could figure out the exact stoichiometry from this figure no problem.

S.C. Wack - 8-6-2004 at 00:04

First the other thread and then Darkfire's 1st post above. So I figure that one can't have too much chloroform, and I go out and buy some bleach. Might as well post it then. Some things have changed since I last did this. Bleach has gone from 5.25 to 6%, the 10% is everywhere, and I have a mag stirrer. So I should get better results this time, right?

When I got up I took the 3 quart jug out of the fridge, weighed, and transferred. The reactor was a gallon HDPE vinegar jug. Got it stirring and added half of the calculated amount of acetone all at once, then put the lid on. The lid would pop off if there was too much pressure but this was not a problem, as the bleach was cold.

It got warm/not hot anyways, but the point is that no acetone or chloroform was lost. Stirring was continued until it cooled to around room temp, a couple hours. An impressive amount of precipitate, which I didn't separate. Back in the fridge, then this was repeated with the other half. This was not so exothermic, and stirring continued until it warmed to room temp. Shaking produced no reaction. The precipitate was separated and distilled.

The non-chloroform part was meanwhile boiled down to 800 ml. Very little chloroform boiled out, and except for that little bit, there was no smell of acetone, hypochlorite, or anything else. Analysis of the salts will have to wait. Gas, CO2 I hope, is and has been evolving from the cold solution/salt crud.

The yield was only 37.47%, 34.9g. (~23ml). No leftover hypo. No leftover acetone. So where's the missing chloroform? I'm going to try this again despite the low yield, being more careful, because this pisses me off.

The figures:
1:3 molar ratio acetone/NaOCl
3 quarts (2839ml) shurfine reg. bleach, $0.88, says 6%, assumed exact %.
Actual volume- 2875ml. Actual wt.- 2904g.
Which means that I assumed I was working with 2.3406771 moles hypo.
So 45.3g. (~58ml.) acetone was used.

BromicAcid - 8-6-2004 at 16:52

Quote:

Actual volume- 2875ml. Actual wt.- 2904g.


Chloroform solubility, roughly 0.8 g / 100 ml H2O

2875/100 = 28.75 x 0.81 = 23.23 g CHCl3 left in solution.

Adding that to your yield of 34.9 g you now have a yield of roughly 62% not to mention that CHCl3 solubility might be augmented by basic environments and that NaOCl decomposes readily on store shelves and is of questionable purity. A yield of 62% is not anything to scoff at, possibly you could precipitate the CHCl3 in solution with the addition of another solvent to decrease solubility even more. Or using a more concentrated hypochlorite solution would decrease the amount of solvent and increase product.

BromicAcid - 13-6-2004 at 14:11

I did some experimentation today. Tried the electrolysis of a NaCl (aq) solution with acetone to see if I could get CHCl3 via an in situ reaction.

Trial #1
Anode : Nickel
Cathode : Graphite
125 ml Acetone
100 ml H2O
25 g NaCl

None of the amounts of reagents had any premeditation. Just threw everything together as much as I hate to admit it. However it was my intention to have the graphite as the anode because it is more resilient to Cl2, however in a later run I found that I had the anode and cathode switched. Magnetic stirring was used as was a battery charger at 12 V, current varied from 3 A to 5 A throughout the reaction.

Initially the solution was clear to be expected. An excess of salt remained at the bottom. Soon though the solution took on a green hue but not too dark and remained at about the same intensity for the next 10 minutes. Gasses were of course generated at the anode and cathode regardless of magnetic stirring. To compensate for this and possibly increase initial Cl2 absorption I added about 4 g NaOH post initiation. Ten or fifteen minutes later I turned off the stirring to check on things. The solution immediately separated into two layers. A green layer at the bottom and a clear layer at the top. There is no way enough current had gone into the solution to convert the excess of acetone to chloroform and the NaCl present was no where near enough. I turned on the stirring again and let the solution continue on its way for another 10 minutes then turned it off and set to the side.

After allowing to cool, I put it into a sepratory funnel and it separated easily. I separated out the bottom portion and added to a separate beaker. I was wondering what it was, I figured it was water saturated with NiCl2 which had made it insoluble in the acetone but I needed a test. To distinguish between H2O and acetone I did an easy test, took the Bp of it. The boiling point was 59 C. So it was not water, but this did not help to distinguish between chloroform (61C) and acetone (56C). I needed another quick test. So I laid out some of the bottom liquid on a watch glass and tossed a match in it. Figured that a high percentage of acetone would be flammable. However the match sizzled and went out. Another met the same fate and another and another, finally I took one and laid the end in the mixture where it was soaked into the cardboard, as it burned down it made wisps of white smoke unlike when coaxed to burn on their own. Therefore results were inconclusive, I believe a combination of factors were at work, also chloroform is miscible with acetone, possibly only a small percentage of CHCl3 is necessary to precipitate acetone and also to inhibit its burning. More tests are necessary.

Test #2
Cathode : Carbon
Anode : Nickel
75 ml Acetone
150 ml H2O
25 g NaBr

Same setup with constant stirring. Similar results except in this case I could see the Br2 being generated at the nickel anode so I swapped them, oops. The graphite anode immediately started turning the solution black from flaking off. Or so I thought because as soon as stirring was begun again the color disappeared mostly. Br2 was constantly coming off the anode and swirled to the middle where it disappeared, presumably meeting the OH- from the cathode. This was continued for in upwards of 25 minutes, but after stirring was discontinued there was absolutely no precipitate :( [Ahhhhhh!!!!! Bromoacetone burns!!!!]

Trial #3
Anode : Graphite
Cathode : Nickel
100 ml Acetone
100 ml H2O
25 g NaCl

Realizing the error of my ways I ran this experiment again with the anode and cathode the way they should be to prevent erroneous side reactions. Electrolysis was continued for 25 minutes with stirring at 12 V with the current fluctuating between 1 and 2 A. After electrolysis was discontinued the solution was left to stand. A precipitate started to come out of solution, on closer inspection it appeared to be just the salt that I had in excess at the beginning of the experiment :( No color change, no hint of chloroform.

So, I'm not totally sure what I've for left from my first reaction. Test for acetone next I guess, I bet the formation of acetone peroxide might be used as a test. Test for chloroform. Odd that the results were so quick and promenade. Anyone else try this yet?

[Edited on 6/14/2004 by BromicAcid]

menchaca - 14-6-2004 at 05:43

i´m not sure at all but i think i´ve found another way to get chloroform otc.
i made it by accident when i was trying to synth hydroquinone from p-dichlorobenzene mothballs.

I dissolved the mothballs in acetone and slowly added a solution NaOH in water. Then an oily and milky liquid closely similar to chloroform appeard in the bottom of the flask.
i think the reaction was this:

3C6H4Cl2 + CH3COCH3 + NaOH---> CHCl3 + CH3COONa + C6H5Cl

Is this correct? i know it has its own thread but i think i didn´t explain fine in the first post.
anyway i think is a possible wat to synth chloroform so it isnt out of thread.

Irepeated the experiment but now whith the ratios of the reaction above:

300ml of acetone(just the acetone enougt todissolve the mothballs)

75grs pdcb(0.5mol)

20grs NaOH in 100ml water(o.5mol)

after dissolving the mothballs, addedslowly the NaOH solution and get again the oily liquid about 100ml .
If this reaction is correct could be an interesting way of chloroform and chlorobenzene otc isn´it?
How can i test it? Thanks!!

The_Davster - 14-6-2004 at 14:37

Seems to make sense but just a little balancing error. 3C6H4Cl2 + CH3COCH3 + NaOH---> CHCl3 + CH3COONa + 3C6H5Cl
I will try this if I can find some p-dichlorobenzene mothballs
And as for testing for chloroform, there is the obvious ;) (though not a good idea if you are not sure it is chloroform), or you could try a chlorobutanol synth with what you think is chloroform.


[Edited on 14-6-2004 by rogue chemist]

Geomancer - 15-6-2004 at 11:10

I wouldn't think that pDCB is active with regard to nucleophilic substitution under normal conditions (high pressure/temperature change things). If it was, the nucleophile would probably be OH-, though, giving the phenol, and Cl- would leave; you still wouldn't get chloroform. Have you positively ruled out the possibility that no signifigant reaction at all is happening, and the system just separates into two phases, one with acetone/pDCB, and one with water, NaOH, and the rest of the acetone? See what happens if you use NaCl instead of NaOH.

menchaca - 15-6-2004 at 13:34

ok i´ll try with NaCl instead of NaOH and i´ll post it

The_Davster - 19-6-2004 at 22:00

Wow, the sodium hypochlorite reaction behaves much differently with a higher concentration of sodium hypochlorite. I got ahold of some 10.8% from canadian tire. The flask goes instantly milky(localized) when even the smallest ammout of acetone is initially added. If too much acetone it introduced to the flask at once or if the flask is not well cooled and stirred, localized boiling ensues instantaneously.:o With doubling hypochlorite concentration the yield doubles.
500mL 5.25% bleach+ 10mL acetone= 4mL yield
250mL 10.8% hypochlorite +10mL acetone= 8mL yield
I think I could have gotten a better yield from the 10.8% if I had used better cooling but some experimenting by adding some of the acetone too fast probally lowered my yield.

The_Davster - 4-7-2004 at 16:12

I went into MERCK and the reaction for calcium hypochlorite is actually
2CH3COCH3+ 6Ca(OCl)2.H2O --> 2CHCl3 +Ca(CH3COO)2 +2Ca(OH)2 + 3CaCl2+ 6H2O

Is the reaction using sodium hypochlorite(from earlier in this thread) still correct?

[Edited on 5-7-2004 by rogue chemist]

menchaca - 5-7-2004 at 05:32

well snif..:( you were right geomancer it wasn´t a chemical reaction.
I repeated the experiment but instead f NaOH i used NaCl solution and i got the same result a oily milky liquid in the bottom of the flask
so you are right no reaction just two phases of liquid

what a pity!! it just seemed so beautyful

Organikum - 5-7-2004 at 08:30

Reaction of bleach aka sodium hypochlorite with acetone:
CH3-CO-CH3 + 3NaOCl = CH3-CO-CCl3 + 3NaOH
CH3-CO-CCl3 + NaOH = CH3-CO-ONa + HCCl3

This is straight from Vogel´s 3rd and can be considered as correct.

(if it was already posted here then I apologize for the redundance)

para-dichlorobenzene, continued

Polverone - 5-7-2004 at 11:45

p-DCB is supposed to react with aqueous ammonia in the presence of copper, but only at elevated temperature/pressure. I've tried quite a few things to see if I can provoke it into reacting under more easily achieved conditions. Stirring/heating with alcoholic KOH? No. Stirring/heating with strong NaOH solution? No. Stirring/heating with strong NaOH and PTC? No. Boiling it with alcoholic AgNO3? No. Boiling it with copper sulfate and household aqueous ammonia? No. Dropping it onto molten KOH? No. Stirring it with methanol and aluminum amalgam? No.

On the bright side, it appears that p-DCB is a relatively high-BP solvent, inert to many reagents. Too bad it sublimes so easily.

Hmm. Refluxing with molten sulfur? I might have to give that a try...

CommonScientist - 6-8-2004 at 15:24

I followed Haggis' instructions, but used my beakers, and only 350ml of solution, and added 10ml of reactant.

My results were somewhat better than his:

Mendeleev - 26-10-2004 at 20:36

Good to know you can use less bleach, I did 2 2500 mL of 6% bleach runs, using 50-55 mL Acetone, and after multiple, very innefficient washes was left with 90 mL, next time I will do 63 mL Acetone.

[Edited on 27-10-2004 by Mendeleev]

Low-tek

explicit_expletive - 17-11-2004 at 15:38

My experience has shown that great care must be taken to control the reaction so as to prevent decomposition of the reagents or catastrophic failure of equipment. My advice is, if you so wish, to pre-cool the acetone and hypochlorite solution in seperate, closed vessels capable of withstanding negative pressure such as a mason jar. I accomplished this by leaving a few jars in a standard freezer for thirty minutes or so.
Furthermore, I've also found it important to add/produce only small quantities of chloroform at a time using my... "equipment." Glass is a good insulator, and freezers only get so cold. Thus, a limited amount of heat can be transferred to the surrounding air per given amount of time. If this amount is exceeded because too large a quantity of material is reacted, then your target temperature will be forfeit.

~explicit_expletive

Mendeleev - 18-11-2004 at 20:19

I don't think this reaction reqiures that much temperature control, very little in fact. The only thing I did with a 2.5L batch was leave the flask with bleach in a bucket of ice 30 minutes before adding the acetone in two portions, leaving it to react on ice. The great thing about this reaction is that it CAN be scaled up. Buy a trash can, 10 gallons of bleach, a liter of acetone, and about 50 lbs. of crushed ice, and you can produce yourself about a liter of chloroform after drying, etc.

Polverone - 12-12-2004 at 14:15

I have found that it's possible to do this at higher concentrations (using dry Ca(OCl)2 as hypochlorite source) if you are patient. The dry powder and about 5 times its volume of cold water are mixed together, the reaction vessel immersed in cold water, and acetone slowly dripped in. I improvised the dripping by poking a pinhole in the bottom of a soup can, setting it in a funnel, and setting the funnel in the neck of the vessel. I set a timer so that I went to swirl the contents every 15 minutes, and added the acetone over a period of about 2 hours. I used somewhat of an excess of acetone and let it sit overnight since a considerable amount simply evaporated while waiting to drip and I wanted to make sure all hypochlorite was consumed for the next step.

The next step was getting something reasonably clear that can be filtered or separated, since there's a bunch of pasty calcium compounds left after all the hypochlorite has been consumed by reaction with acetone. I added portions of hydrochloric acid and swirled until most of the solids had gone into solution. There was no chlorine released. There's a healthy blob of chloroform at the bottom of the vessel waiting to be separated, washed, and dried. It looks considerably larger than from previous attempts where I tried to work faster. I will probably repeat this process several times over the next few days since I need to use up my calcium hypochlorite before its packaging completely deteriorates, though I don't have much use for additional chloroform.

[Edited on 12-12-2004 by Polverone]

HNO3 - 18-12-2004 at 12:10

I did the readtion between bleach and acetone. I used an excess of bleach (I think). I got a yellow solution above a heavy (s.g.>1), milky (like a colloid?), nonpolar (it splits like mercury when I hold a stirring rod to the side of the graduated cylinder it is in) liquid. It has no knock out effect, but I do have a headache. When I heat it, it turns clear but yellow colored. It starts bubbling about 50*C, but I never had it at a full boil. Could I have made CCl4? Or is it a mixture? What went wrong? (famous last words):(

BromicAcid - 18-12-2004 at 13:06

Quote:
It starts bubbling about 50*C


Somewhat lower then chloroform, and significantly lower then carbon tet, most likely just acetone boiling off. Carbon tet is usually an impurity, almost never a major constituent of chloroform made this way.

BromicAcid - 28-12-2004 at 17:05

A little off topic but interesting:
Quote:
Chlorine will readily react with trace quantities of bromide to form hypobromous acid.

HOCl + Br- ---------> HOBr + Cl- (4.21)

The speed of this reaction is such that it rapidly proceeds until there is very little bromide left. The hypobromous acid formed can then react with organic matter reforming bromide which completes the cycle.

d[HOBr]/dt = (3.1x103 l/M-sec)[HOCl][Br-] (4.22)

Therefore, in the presence of bromide, the active halogen shifts from chlorine to bromine. This is significant, because bromine may react differently with organic matter than chlorine does. For example, bromine is far more reactive with acetone, forming an order of magnitude more trihalomethane (i.e., bromoform) than with chlorine. On the other hand chlorine gives higher concentrations of trihalomethanes with resorcinol than bromine. With natural waters and aquatic fulvic acids, the presence of bromide usually supports an increase in THM production. Studies with extracted aquatic humic material have shown a a sharp loss of TCAA and DCAA with increasing bromide concentrations (Croué, 1987). It is likely that some bromoacetic acids and brominated THMs are formed in their place.


From here. So I thought, "Hummm... that makes sense..." I had known that the series of reactivity was reversed with oxoacids, however I thought, for instance, that if you wanted hypobromite, you would add elemental bromine to hypochlorite, and you would release chlorine. So I took 500 ml 10% NaOCl and added an excess NaBr, swirled and let sit for 25 minutes, the solution when I cam back was orange/red bromine may have been released but the solution was definitely basic so it was definitely as hypobromite. I added 12 ml acetone and let react for 25 minutes, the reaction was much faster then with the pure hypochlorite even though the reagents were near 0C. Upon completion of reaction the mixture looked the same as mixtures of chloroform and hypochlorite that I get left over from those reactions. I had a graduated cylinder with 20 ml of chloroform from a previous run an hour earlier with a layer of the remaining reactant mixture over it, I poured in the bromoform that I had made and it sunk straight to the bottom, it even made its own layer separate from the chloroform layer, I didn't try forcing them to mix, I just figured the properties of bromoform and chloroform were close enough that using a mixture of the two would pose no problems.

Protium - 29-12-2004 at 01:57

I used a five gallon bucket and dumped in a gallon of 5% store-bought bleach (NaOCl). I left bleach container in a cold (about 5 degrees C) room overnight and then I added 216.1g of Ca(OCl)2. At such a low temp, a good portion of the Ca(OCl)2 did not dissolve, even with stirring.

I then added dropwise with stirring about 75mL acetone. About 15 minutes after the addition was completed, I checked the bottom layer for chloroform. There was none.

I decided to wait a while. After about another half-hour, as I was walking by I heard a bubbling reaction. To my surprise the reaction was well underway bubbling at 45 degrees C. At this temp; most of the Ca(OCl)2 was dissolved. I had already added the full theoretical amount of acetone, so it was effectively like dumping in all of the acetone at once and the reaction proceeded too fast. In the end, there was no product at the bottom of the bucket.

Conclusion: At a temperature of about 5 degrees C (or lower) , the reaction does not go forward at any appreciable rate. This is not to say that you should not use cooling, but that there should be a balance between the exothermic heating of reaction and manual cooling of reaction.

Mendeleev - 29-12-2004 at 13:15

Stirring helps a lot. My reaction was at around 0 C and when I swirled the flask for a little while it shot up to 30.

[Edited on 29-12-2004 by Mendeleev]

BromicAcid - 11-3-2005 at 19:58

From 'Thorpe's Dictionary of Applied Chemistry'
Quote:
Manufacture of Chloroform from Acetone and Bleaching-powder.

-This is the process most generally employed. The method differs in minor detail with the various manufactures, but the following may be taken as representatives. The reaction is carried out in a cast-iron still of about 800 gallons capacity, which is provided with stirring gear, steam-coils, and cooling-coils, and is connected with a condenser; 300 gallons of water are run into the still, and 800 lbs of bleaching powder are added through a manhole, which is then securely bolted down. During addition of the bleaching powder the mixture is very thoroughly stirred. (In some processes the mixing is carried out in a separate vessel, and the suspension is strained from the larger unbroken lumps of bleaching powder before being allowed to run into the still.) The container (A in the diagram shown on p. 78) is charged with 70 lb of acetone, which is then slowly run into the bottom of the still by means of a valve B. The introduction of the acetone is accompanied by a rise in the temperature which is not allowed to exceed 110 F., cooling being effected if necessary by stopping the flow of acetone and circulating cold water though the cooling coil in the still. When all the acetone has been introduced the contents of the still are raised to 134 F. At this temperature chloroform begins to distill over. The temperature is then very gradually raised to 150 F., so as to keep the chloroform readily distilling. Towards the end of the reaction the mixture is stirred and the temperature raised until no more chloroform distills over.

The crude chloroform obtained is separated and purified first by agitation with concentrated sulfuric acid. This operation is carried out in the vessel shown in the diagram ; 1,500 lb. of crude chloroform are introduced into the vessel and thoroughly stirred, by means of the agitation gear shown, with 600 lb. of sulfuric acid. The stirring is continued until a sample of the chloroform when thoroughly shaken with pure concentrated sulfuric acid does not impart the slightest color on the latter. The time required for complete purification is usually about 3 hours. The chloroform is next separated from the sulfuric acid and finally distilled over lime. The yield obtained from the above quantities averaged from over 2,000 batches was 124 lb., the highest yield in any one case being 131 lb. Variation in yield is attributed to the varying composition of bleaching powder, though doubtless other factors influence the result. Bleaching powder containing less then 33% of available chlorine gives unsatisfactory results, while samples containing more then 35% of chlorine are also unsatisfactory. The best results appear to be obtained with bleaching powder containing 34% of available chlorine.


I didn’t even know this process was used let alone the main process used in the manufacture of chloroform at one time. I’ve also done some more work with sodium hypochlorite, a mixture of 510 ml 10% NaOCl with 11 ml acetone, providing the reagents are pre-cooled to -10C when allowed to react at these temperatures for an hour give chloroform in an adjusted yield in the 90 percentile range.

[Edited on 12/11/2005 by BromicAcid]

PainKilla - 25-4-2005 at 09:29

Well for ease of use for everyone this translates too:

2 Liter Jar/Flask
1.2L Water
363g 34% Bleaching Powder Ca(OCl)2
38ml acetone

In a 2 Liter jar, add 1137 ml of water, 363g of bleaching powder with 34% Cl content is added slowly, this is very thoroughly stirred and then the about 38ml of acetone is added. The container is cooled, so the temperature does not rise above ~43 degrees Celcius. NOTE 1 After ALL of the acetone has been added, the temperature is raised to 57C, and then to 66C, until no more chloroform is being distilled over. NOTE 2

Average yeild of PURE chloroform: 55ml

NOTE 1: Depending on your materials, this reaction may be performed in seperate steps, then the chloroform seperated via seperatory funnel or syringe. The chloroform is purified via distillation or with a suitable dehyrating/dessicating agent. This route may not be the most yielding, but it is the most cost effective.

NOTE 2: This route can be done in a standard distillation set with an addition funnel (not sure of proper name) The only difference is that for some of the reaction, the "boiling" flask must be kept cool. I would think the processes to go like this:

(see attachment)

And yes, I know I am THE WORST PAINT user ever. But I like MSPaint :).

[Edited on 25-4-2005 by PainKilla]

[Edited on 26-4-2005 by PainKilla]

chcl3 prodcue.JPG - 32kB

Crap

chloric1 - 26-4-2005 at 04:02

Painkilla, you regard the aqueous layer as crap. Not necessarily. If you where to use Methyl Ethyl Ketone instead of acetone you would get calcium propionate along with your chloroform. Or sodium propionate if your use concentrated sodium hypochlorite with MEK. You concentrate the aqueous layer and add 50% sulfuric acid to liberate propionic acid then extract in a suitable volatile nonpolar solvent.:) Ethanol would yield formates!

PainKilla - 26-4-2005 at 08:08

I was just copying the procedure... It is rather cumbersome to do that, and well good point :D.

That is rather interesting info :p.

I am going to perform the whole thing (not your post) soon and give report on yields etc... as soon as my seperatory funnel comes in :D.

Hermes_Trismegistus - 26-4-2005 at 18:26

I've performed the oxidation of acetone by hypochlorites several times.

There is a valid reason that bleach is the hypochlorite of choice for this reaction for the amateur.

Bleaching powder is only partly(about 2/3'rds hypochlorite, the rest being insoluble (carbonates I think). After laboriously filtering out the crap with a buchner funnel under vacuum, (and that takes a helluva long time due to the fineness of the particles after they break up from the granules the come out of the canister in!!!!)

I added a six molar sol'n to the acetone and had massive precipitation resulting in nothing but a foam reminiscient of meringue...

The smell of chloroform is strong, but the chloroform itself is adsorbed onto the precipitate......calcium chloride I think...


also....whoever it was that thinks that they improved the yield of this reaction by adding more acetone is daft.

There is only one chlorine atom per NaOCl!!!

Matter is neither created or destroyed in chemical reactions....

Can't fight stoichiometry.


Oh look....I'm breaking my own rule about arguing with.....this guy

BromicAcid - 26-4-2005 at 18:38

Personally the idea of using calcium hypochlorite sounds appealing, despite it not being the only thing in commerical bleaching powder it still supplies more hypochlorite on a volume to volume ratio then commerical OTC bleach. However there is the problem of the insolubles, being that this was once an industrial process it seems quite proven that a distillation straight from whatever you have after reaction does indeed work, but the beauty of the reaction between acetone and bleach is the easy recovery of the product, although it should really be distilled anyway.

Polverone seemed to be on the right track when he reacted acetone with Ca(OCl)<sub>2</sub> dropwise to prevent excessive heating then reacted the resulting product with HCl to dissolve the carbonates and other materials present facilitating the easy recovery of the liquid chloroform.

hdcwr0x2 - 10-10-2005 at 14:46

I don't mean to derail the thread, but I've got a couple of questions. I've made a small quantity of chloroform using acetone as the the excess reagent (performed reaction in a large bucket without adequate measuring apparatus. I know, I need to invest in glassware but that's beside the point. After about 30 minutes, the solution began to turn cloudy, and got warm as the ice I had added earler melted away. I cooled the reaction vessle by submerging it into cold water. After a couple hours, the mixture had mostly seperated into 2 layers. I decanted most of the top layer and poured the bottom one into a glass jar for later analysis. I left it in the freezer overnight, and when I looked at it this morning, there was a layer of ice over a liquid layer. (There was still some water, because I didn't have the tools to extract the bottom layer completly.) I saved the liquid and threw away the ice. Is what I have left fairly pure chloroform? I was worried about acetone contamination, but I had assumed acetone to be less dense than water or chloroform, and I was right. Any acetone left over from the reaction would have been poured off when I decanted earlier right?

Also, I am storing the chloroform in a completly dark freezer right now. Will this prevent decomposition into phosgene, or will I need to add methanol?

[Edited on 10-10-2005 by hdcwr0x2]

nitroglycol - 4-11-2005 at 16:47

Quote:
Originally posted by Haggis
With this experiment, I acutally found a use for my products, and a productive, legal one at that! A friend's little brother had to collect bugs for his biology class. What else to use for the killing jar besides chloroform? It works very nicely, and is a lot quicker than the 'acetone free nailpolish remover' (ethyl acetate) that they told them to use.

I've used chloroform in a killing jar once, and it seemed to work well; more often I've used Quick Start (which I believe is an ether-hexane mixture), simply because it's more readily available than other agents (you can buy aerosol cans of it at Canadian Tire and similar places). But maybe I'll try making chloroform between now and next summer and see how they compare.

[Edited on 5-11-2005 by nitroglycol]

Douchermann - 21-11-2005 at 07:06

I'd like to point out that if you use an ice bath for the reaction, you have to bring it up to room temperature after all the acetone is added. Keep it below 20C while you are adding the acetone (like 1ml, then stir, then 1ml then stir) and after its all added, stir it a little more then put it on a table and slowly let it warm up to room temp. The reaction will procede as normal and may heat up to about 30-35C. You will be left with nice clear TCM and quite a bit of it at that.

HmMmMm?!?

kclo4 - 27-11-2005 at 19:21

Sorry if this was covered but does chlorine in water and acetone make CHCl3?

If it does TCCA could be added to water and acetone to make CHCl3, but not only that but also acetic acid (YAY), and C3H3N3O3

now the acetone and NaOCl forms; sodium hydroxide, sodium chloride, and sodium acetate, HOCl and acetone should or could form; di hydrogen monoxide, hydrochloric acid, and acetic acid. as you can see HCl forms and that would make the reaction go faster untill a point at which no more HCl could disolve, but this might be problematic since i am sure it would heat up, and it should be cooled, but i think i would still rather get some fairly conc acetic acid, with not much of an effect on the yeilds for the TCM
So does anyone know if it does?

BromicAcid - 27-11-2005 at 19:26

Quote:
Sorry if this was covered but does chlorine in water and acetone make CHCl3?
Chlorine + Acetone + Water gives chloroacetone, a potent tear gas type chemical. The haloform reaction requires basic conditions, these are provided by many salts of hypochloric acid by their hydrolysis to give a hydroxide and the free acid.

ThermiteFiend - 15-7-2006 at 17:12

:o:o:o BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL!!! while chloroform *can* be used as a knock-out drug, the dose required is pretty high. It is very easy to cross the line from knock-out to lethal. if you really want to pursue something of this nature, i reccomend finding a compound that is a lot more managable, and not as easily lethal

DDTea - 10-8-2006 at 13:17

After reading through this thread a few times, I've noticed one crucial step in this haloform reaction is being omitted--the addition of acid after the initial addition of acetone to bleach.

Think of NaOCl as a source of Cl+ (or as NaOH and Cl2--where there is an occasional dipole in Cl2):

(CH3)C=O(CH3) --(NaOH)--> H2C=C-O(-)CH3 <--> H2C(-)C=O(CH3)

H2C(-)C=O(CH3) + Cl+ --> (CH2Cl)C=O(CH3)

This step repeats three times on one carbon, since with each chlorination it becomes even more reactive. The next step explains the "fogginess" :

:OH + (CCl3)C=O(CH3) --> CH3COOH + :CCl3 <--> CH3COO(-) + HCCl3

A proton exchange occurs, so some of the chloroform remains in solution until you add more protons so they don't have to be shared (i.e., pour in some acid!). The carbonate is your fogginess.

I have done this reaction with Acetophenone, but not with Acetone. The yield was one mol Chloroform/mol Acetophenone + 1 mol Benzoic Acid. I imagine yields of Chloroform would be even better with Acetone, since there are *two* methyl groups adjacent to a carbonyl (therefore, 6 chlorinations take place, and 2 mols Chloroform are formed from each mol of Acetone).

Even better, upon addition of acid, the Sodium Carbonate should form CO2, which conveniently bubbles away, leaving you with a sodium acid salt and hopefully more chloroform.

Oh yeah, adding acid to bleach isn't always safe; chances are there will be excess bleach, so make sure to stay up wind and avoid chlorine fumes.

not_important - 10-8-2006 at 15:42

Quote:
I imagine yields of Chloroform would be even better with Acetone, since there are *two* methyl groups adjacent to a carbonyl (therefore, 6 chlorinations take place, and 2 mols Chloroform are formed from each mol of Acetone).


No, as only the first methyl will react. There is a big difference between a carbonyl C=O of a aldehyde or ketone, and that of a carboxylic acid or its salts.

Adding acid does nothing for yields. Outside of keeping the reaction mixture from getting too hot, the next best thing for increasing yields is to get the chloroform dissolved in the aqueous layer. While the inorganic salts help reduce the solubility of chloroform, a fair amount does go with the water.

Distillation can be used to get it out, but be aware that CHCl3 will react with base. From that standpoint neutralizing the solution will help yields. Ehen I was doing it I had access to very low cost solid CO2, I would just toss bits of dry ice in until the pH and fizzness showed all the base was now NaHCO3. Later I didn't bother with that, instead I made a flash distillation rig where a thin stream of the aqueous solution would vert quickly be heated above the boiling point of chloroform. It was in effect a fractionating column jacked with boiling water, with the mix injected part way down the column. It would be heated very rapidly to the point the CHCl3 came off, keeping the time it was exposed to hot alkali to a minimum.

The organic acid formed can be as useful as the CHCl3. Acetone gives acetate, as does isopropyl alcohol at the cost of an extra mole of hypochlorite. Ethanol give formic acid salts, while MEK gives mostly propanate.

YT2095 - 17-10-2006 at 02:06

Quote:
Originally posted by Polverone
p-DCB is supposed to react with aqueous ammonia in the presence of copper, but only at elevated temperature/pressure. I've tried quite a few things to see if I can provoke it into reacting under more easily achieved conditions. Stirring/heating with alcoholic KOH? No. Stirring/heating with strong NaOH solution? No. Stirring/heating with strong NaOH and PTC? No. Boiling it with alcoholic AgNO3? No. Boiling it with copper sulfate and household aqueous ammonia? No. Dropping it onto molten KOH? No. Stirring it with methanol and aluminum amalgam? No.

On the bright side, it appears that p-DCB is a relatively high-BP solvent, inert to many reagents. Too bad it sublimes so easily.

Hmm. Refluxing with molten sulfur? I might have to give that a try...


agreed, I`ve been trying a few of these this morning also, nothing of any significance occured either, although I read that hydrolysis NaOH/KOH will produce the Ortho species rather than the Para.
Conc H2SO4 will be my next experiment (and anything else I can throw at it).

nevermind, that Nor a nitrating mix seems to do anything beyond distill itself up the test tube and smell of mothballs, maybe Mn2O7 might give a result?

at least Moths won`t be a problem in Lab for a few day :)


[Edited on 17-10-2006 by YT2095]

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