Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Glowing tomato

garage chemist - 9-8-2007 at 15:52

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/757249/make_a_glowing_tomato/

How the hell does that work? That seems like a really weird concontion of chemicals: matchheads, bleach and hydrogen peroxide.
I first thought "singlet oxygen", but the glow is way too strong and too long for that. Also, no oxygen seems to be evolved.

The UV detection of "high-phosphorus matchsticks" is also bullshit, as phosphorus does not fluorescence under UV light- white phos glows in the dark, but by itself and is consumed in the process.

Also, which of the two layers are they withdrawing with the syringe?

Eclectic - 9-8-2007 at 16:06

The matches may be irrelevant, unless chlorates or chlorites help the reaction along:

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/12/09/firefly-chemistry/

Ozone - 9-8-2007 at 16:21

Quite cool, if it works. IIRC strike anywhere matches contain antimony (III) sulfide, RP, K chlorate and powdered glass. Of interest is the luminous nature of the intermediate "oxidized" match compound (and the two layers, of which it looks like the clear top that they are using). This evokes a very small amount of white P (does look like WP glow), but evolution of white P from red is a physical (phase transition) rather than a chemical process. Is the bleach treatment exothermic?

Hmm. The thing does not appear to smoke or steam when cut and exposed to air whilst aglow. IT also appears cool enough to handle comfortably. Hmm. Sb oxychloride?, KClO3 should remain as is (maybe some NaClO3 is formed, definitely if there is any bleach left in the mix and H2O2 is added---NaOCl will oxidize H2O2 to yield O2 (likely some 1Dg singlet O2) NaCl and traces of NaClO3, but this rxn is frisky and no evidence of gas evolution was seen). POCl3? Complex phosphorus-peroxide species? wierd.

I'll have to try it out (I'll have to buy these matches first. Maybe making match compound would be easier and work a bit better).

Definitely on my to-do list,

O3

BromicAcid - 9-8-2007 at 16:32

When they start putting the H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> in it looks like there is a very fast gas evolution, all around the syringe it looks like bubbles are coming out of different parts of the tomato (might just be an effect of having a bunch of liquid forced into a tomato though). My first guess would be the hypochlorite reacting with the peroxide (They didn't say the concentration as far as I noticed), that emits a red light that would compliment the tomato and something in there might be acting as a sensitizer thereby allowing for a good light emission.

When I was researching compositions of match heads I couldn't find any modern manufacturers using red phosphorus in the heads themselves. Most seemed to use phosphorous sesquisulfide or just some mixture of phosphorus sulfides. If the NaOCl isn't the main culprit here I would place some of the activity on that but there is also the chlorate in the mix there. Before they added the peroxide I thought maybe the hypochlorite/chlorate mixture being acidified slowly by the natural juices of the tomato might facilitate a nice chemiluminescent reaction with the phosphorus sulfides. But then again there are a lot of factors that could come into play here. Although this would seem to be an easy experiment to test out in a lab in that there are only a few key 'ingredients' that I can pin point in the reaction.

guy - 9-8-2007 at 16:57

Singlet oxygen rapidly oxidizing white phosphorous.

Ozone - 9-8-2007 at 17:00

Forgot about the sesquisulfide in modern compositions. I do know that we will get some singlet O2 when NaOCl oxidizes H2O2. At first I thought this rxn would be too fast for a persistent chemiluminescence. However, now that I think a bit more about it, the tomato flesh is likely limiting mass transfer to diffusion (hence gradual emission) AND the stability of the H2O2 will be affected by the lower pH creating hydroperoxide intermediates (peracids, etc.) which will have much longer lifetimes at the relatively low temperatures employed (rt).

So, perhaps we get some singlet O2 with time release, in the presence of an activator some decent fluorophore and away we go.

I do think that the pH and rate of reaction allowed by mechanical stricture are main factors which make the NaOCl/H2O2 system slow enough to perhaps work.

Unexplained, however, is the phosphorescence (triplet) of the intermediate NaOCl product. Could the sulfides be oxidized from the P to yield maybe, HSO3, chlorosulfonic acid (and who knows what all else) and P (maybe white)? Hmm. Let me look around and see If I have any matches. First I'll try bleach and H2O2 (at 2.5 and 3%, respectively, in the dark).

Cheers,

O3

[Edited on 9-8-2007 by Ozone]

Ozone - 9-8-2007 at 17:24

NaOCl and H2O2, do not provide any visible light (just effervescence and heat). Likewise with the same test with a small amount of added luminous paint. [edit] this was to test if UV was emitted; it would have glowed much more brightly--it's luminosity remained unchanged in the presence of reacting NaOCl and H2O2.

I though I might bave tomato juice, but I found only fruit flavored V8:P.

For tomorrow, i wouild like to get some benzophenone, Na fluorescein, matches, RP (maybe), stronger peroxide...and...a tomato. Maybe we can test-tube-it-out.

[edit] I do have lycopene and folic acid, for the hell of it.

Cheers,

O3

[Edited on 10-8-2007 by Ozone]

DerAlte - 9-8-2007 at 17:34

Lycopene in the tomato? Think of all those conjugated double bonds gradually going pop, pop, pop!

Regards,

Der Alte

jimmyboy - 9-8-2007 at 18:52

The glowing tomato is hogwash -- matches have Red P not White -- which doesn't glow unless its converted with a good amount of heat -- neither peroxide or a bleach solution will do this - hypochlorite and peroxide does glow faintly but not like that... the tomato was glowing like a light bulb -- what it really looked like is he either used phosphorescent dye and a blacklight or a tiny LED to do this trick... its entertaining to be fooled i guess.. maybe he will make another 100 bucks on metacafe..

[Edited on 10-8-2007 by jimmyboy]

Eclectic - 9-8-2007 at 19:19

Hey! Did ANYONE read the link I posted?

Again:

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/12/09/firefly-chemistry/

[Edited on 8-9-2007 by Eclectic]

YT2095 - 10-8-2007 at 01:27

I have and am wondering if things like Rhodamine B or 6G would work instead of some of the other items like Chili powder and the likes.

I also have something called Optical Brightener, it looks like 3in1 oil, but in water it glows blue under UV but doesn`t have a color itself.

Nice link Eclectic, Thanks :)

Xenoid - 10-8-2007 at 03:20

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic
Hey! Did ANYONE read the link I posted?


Yeah! Great site! There is some fantastic "stuff" there!

I wonder how an article titled " Fun with explosive gases for the home chemist " would fare in these times of paranoia.

Xenoid

[Edited on 10-8-2007 by Xenoid]

Eclectic - 10-8-2007 at 04:21

It's just that the 1930's article on chemiluminescence may explain what's going on with the bleach, peroxide, and tomato...

Do the chemicals in the matches actually make any difference?

chemkid - 10-8-2007 at 07:49

I happen to have a long wave UV light and i checked the different boxes of safety matches only one of which luminesced, but it was bright orange. I am yet to try strike anywhere matches.

Chemkid

[Edited on 10-8-2007 by chemkid]

Xenoid - 10-8-2007 at 08:35

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic
Do the chemicals in the matches actually make any difference?


I don't think so!

Eclectic, you are spot on with your link!

It's the colouring agent that is being extracted, in the upper layer and that is what is glowing when the matches are illuminated with UV. The references to phosphorus are bullshit! The video maker is confused! The pinkish dye is probably a rhodamine type dye.


Xenoid

YT2095 - 10-8-2007 at 08:50

probably B then, as 6G is a little less vivid and more Red than the In-You-Face acid Pink of B.


nope, I just tried it, Rhodamine B and NaOCl (12%) and then 9% H2O2. no lights!

I think I`ll try the one Eclectic mentioned in the article with the Alcohol etc...

it won`t be today though.


[Edited on 10-8-2007 by YT2095]

Eclectic - 10-8-2007 at 09:46

I think you may need an organic substrate for the whole mess to react with. Try injecting it into various fruits and vegetables.

[Edited on 8-10-2007 by Eclectic]

Per - 11-8-2007 at 04:41

Maybe first trying to get the slight glow precursor in the syringe might be more succesfull, until having this reagence attemptions with fruits which are more strenuouse may doesn´t make sense.

ssdd - 11-8-2007 at 06:58

I tried this last night with no result, I think I may have added too much bleach to the match heads....

I am gona try this again later today and see what happens.

Interesting experiment I must say.

-ssdd

YT2095 - 11-8-2007 at 07:45

good point about the bleach, I used my 12%, the sort that hisses when you open the lid and knocks you on your ass with Cl2 gas if you`re not careful.
the Rhodamine B didn`t even dissolve in it until I added the 9% H2O2.

ssdd - 11-8-2007 at 12:20

I tried this once again using less bleach and newer matches... once again a complete failure. What on earth could be going wrong here. (The main difference I see is that I dont get the red liquid when they layer out, I get a whitish clear liquid and a white residue on the bottom.)

anything?
-ssdd

guy - 11-8-2007 at 14:13

Quote:
Originally posted by ssdd
I tried this once again using less bleach and newer matches... once again a complete failure. What on earth could be going wrong here. (The main difference I see is that I dont get the red liquid when they layer out, I get a whitish clear liquid and a white residue on the bottom.)

anything?
-ssdd


Are you using non-safety matches with white phosphorous? Safety matches use red phosphorous which is not good,

garage chemist - 11-8-2007 at 14:37

There are no matches with white phosphorus. Those have been outlawed LONG ago.
Also, white phos doesnt glow in solution! Get that thought out of your head that white phos might play any role here!
White phos is also insoluble in water, and is oxidised by bleach to phosphoric acid WITHOUT appearance of any glow- I tried that out myself!

guy - 11-8-2007 at 15:11

Quote:
Originally posted by garage chemist
There are no matches with white phosphorus. Those have been outlawed LONG ago.
Also, white phos doesnt glow in solution! Get that thought out of your head that white phos might play any role here!
White phos is also insoluble in water, and is oxidised by bleach to phosphoric acid WITHOUT appearance of any glow- I tried that out myself!


Ok haha. Then what are non safety matches made out of nowadays? That video confused me.

Xenoid - 11-8-2007 at 20:45

Quote:
Originally posted by guy
Ok haha. Then what are non safety matches made out of nowadays? That video confused me.


As pointed out earlier in the thread by Bromic Acid, strike anywhere matches (if you can find them) contain a phosphorus sulphide (P4S3) together with potassium chlorate and/or manganese dioxide, glue, powdered glass and colouring agent.

From what I can gather the important material here is the "colouring agent".

The references to "high in phosphorus" in the video are incorrect, what he means is "highly phosphorescent", (in UV light). But even this is wrong, he should really say "highly fluorescent, in UV light". The red matches (safety) that I buy don't glow particularly well in UV, but when the head is scraped off, the stained wood underneath glows very brightly, just like pink "day-glow" plastic. This possibly suggests it is a rhodamine type dye! I extracted the dye from some pink "day-glow" plastic, using acetone, it looks just like the extract in the video, but I can't get that intermediate glow (with bleach). I don't have any H2O2 at the moment, so I can't do any further tests!

Xenoid

[Edited on 11-8-2007 by Xenoid]

YT2095 - 12-8-2007 at 01:42

Rhodamine B in ethanol (it dissolved perfectly) then a few drops of 12% bleach was added, the color instantly vanished and started getting warm also.
there was still no light, then H2O2 was added dropwise the color came back a Little bit but still no light, oddly there was no fizzing this time, unlike last try where the alc wasn`t used, there was also a very pleasant smell this time, not the horrid Cl2 smell.

eitherway, there was no light at all, but the Rhodamine B in Alc looks identical to the matches in bleach soln.

Axt - 12-8-2007 at 06:42

I think it should be noted that the person behind the glowing tomato is the same person behind the fake <a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8465&page=1#pid96630">binary explosive</a> movie. The guy has no credibility, and this could easily be faked with a glowstick. He made $2857 with the explosive movie on metacafe, and $338 so far on the tomato, theres motive enough.

Looking at his other movies, the <a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/755703/make_explosive_hydrogen_condoms/">"flying" condom</a> is likely faked as well.

[Edited on 13-8-2007 by Axt]

16MillionEyes - 12-8-2007 at 06:56

The reason that I can think of for the flying condom is the production of hydrogen gas. What I don't seem to understand (or maybe I can't see due to my own ignorance) is how an acidic based solution with hydrogen peroxide will yield H2. Wouldn't it simply aid with the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide and give off O2? Any ideas?

YT2095 - 12-8-2007 at 07:04

as far as I`m aware acid and H2O2 are stable, Phosphoric acid is often added in a small amount to H2O2 in order to stabilise it and give it a longer shelf life.

but again, like yourself, I would expect Oxygen as the breakdown product also.

jimmyboy - 12-8-2007 at 07:53

its like i never posted... all his crap videos are fake.... well for the most part -- you dont get hydrogen gas when hydrogen peroxide decomposes - only O2 and water (excluding electrolysis) -- the binary explosive is BS from a movie as well -- this is just for money..

YT2095 - 12-8-2007 at 07:59

so is his Smoke composition Video.

or am I thinking of a different forum where this was discovered?

one sec....

edit: ok it was another forum,
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/704958/ultimate_colored_smoke_...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/721351/make_a_pull_ring_smoke_...

the latter is similar to the 1`st except a new ignitor that`s all, still the same bullshit claims, and YES this HAS been tested!!!

it`s Bovine Scatology!




[Edited on 12-8-2007 by YT2095]

woelen - 12-8-2007 at 10:16

That hydrogen condom definitely is fake. I can believe the first part of inflating this thing. The hydrogen peroxide could decompose, giving oxygen gas. But throwing it up in the air would result in just falling down quickly. The gas produced is oxygen.

16MillionEyes - 12-8-2007 at 15:32

Well, the interesting part about their smoke videos is that if you read the videos comments people claim to have done the same thing and worked. Has anyone actually tried this?

The return of the glowing tomato.

Xenoid - 19-8-2007 at 17:47

Well not really... :)

I have been trying to duplicate some of the examples given in the "Firefly" article, in the modernmechanix blog quoted by Eclectic in the second post of this thread.

Has anyone had any success with the examples given!

I haven't tried the oil of bergamot, but I extracted the curcumin from turmeric and the capsanthins from paprika. They glow beautifully in UV light, but I can't get any glow using hydrogen peroxide and bleach. The instructions were followed as given, the only variation I made was to use a little acetone with the alcohol during the extraction phase. The denatured alcohol I used has a little violet dye in it so I wanted to limit the amount.

Edit: Changed oregano to paprika - what was I thinking!!!!

Xenoid

[Edited on 29-10-2007 by Xenoid]

franklyn - 20-8-2007 at 09:37

Glowing vegetables such as tomatoes and even mice have been created by
gene splicing techniques by the attribution of a gene from a jelly fish which
glows by chemiluminescense. The gene codes for the protein which emits a
greenish light.

.

16MillionEyes - 21-8-2007 at 15:58

I've read an article about a glowing primate as well but I don't think this video employed jelly fish genes at all. :D
Apperantely it's a fake as nobody seemed to get any results.

texaspete - 21-8-2007 at 21:28

Quote:
Originally posted by Axt
I think it should be noted that the person behind the glowing tomato is the same person behind the fake <a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8465&page=1#pid96630">binary explosive</a> movie. The guy has no credibility, and this could easily be faked with a glowstick.

[Edited on 13-8-2007 by Axt]


I agree with Axt. Seems like the H2O2 may have been the only real part.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/light-stick1.htm