Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Police Seize Huge Cache Of Explosives From Colorado Home

bio2 - 21-6-2007 at 09:00

Here is an interesting article I stumbled on today.
It sends somewhat mixed signals it seems.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/210607Explosiv...


Police Seize Huge Cache Of Explosives From Colorado Home, But Say It's Not Enough For An Act Of Terrorism

Winter Patriot
Thursday June 21, 2007

Flashback: Terror's Trivial When It's Not Muslims

A Colorado man is free on $50,000 bond after a police search of his house discovered a cache of weapons, explosives and volatile chemicals.

Ronald Swerlein of Longmont, CO, attracted the attention of his neighbors by setting off explosions in his garage. Police had been seeking tips after several small homemade explosives were found in a local parking lot nearly three weeks ago.

A police search of the Swerlein home turned up hundreds of volatile chemicals and other weapons, as well as books about bomb-making and revenge.

Swerlein says he's been experimenting with various chemicals to use as rocket fuel.



According to reports from Colorado, police confiscated nitroglycerin, ammonium nitrate, PETN, thermite, and sodium azide, none of which are used as rocket fuels. They also discovered laboratory-grade glassware worth thousands of dollars.

Ammonium nitrate is the basic ingredient in so-called fertilizer bombs; PETN is an ingredient in plastic explosives; sodium azide produces a toxic gas when it comes into contact with metal; and nitroglycerin is a well-known (and extremely unstable) liquid explosive. Thermite, as most 9/11 researchers know, can be used to cut steel and may have been involved in the demolition of the three World Trade Center buildings which disintegrated on September 11, 2001.

Police detonated the nitroglycerin in Swerlein's driveway.

Longmont Police Sgt. Tim Lewis said the police had seized "cartloads of weapons ... more than I have ever seen in our armory."

Despite the size of the cache and the volatility of the chemicals involved, Sgt. Lewis told reporters that Swerlein had not created enough chemical explosives “for a terrorist action,” although he did have enough to damage his home and others in his neighborhood.

Sgt. Lewis also said, "This investigation is still in its infancy. We're still trying to determine what his intent was."

Considering that the perpetrators of the most extravagant terrorist attack ever committed on American soil were allegedly armed only with box-cutters, it is incomprehensible that a cache of weapons and explosives larger than the Longmont police have in their armory could be described as insufficient for a terrorist action.

How much nitroglycerin does one need to commit an act of terrorism? Or does that depend on one's religion or the color of one's skin?

And why has this case attracted so little national attention? Or does that depend on religion and skin color, too?

~~~

[selected links]

7 News (Denver), June 3: Homemade Explosive Devices Put Authorities, Neighbors On Alert

7 News (Denver), June 16: Homeowner Arrested After Explosives Found In Longmont

Longmont Daily Times-Call, June 18: Swerlein has first day in court

7 News (Denver), June 18: Longmont Homeowner Goes To Court In Explosives Probe

UPI, June 19: Homemade explosions land man in jail

Longmont Daily Times-Call, June 19: ‘Cartloads’ of weapons seized

Longmont Daily Times-Call, June 19: Police: Chemicals more than rocket hobby

Longmont Daily Times-Call, June 19: Suspect in explosive case out on bond

Longmont Daily Times-Call, June 19: Longmont neighborhood won't be evacuated

Rocky Mountain News (Denver), June 20: Longmont bomb team redeploys

Longmont Daily Times-Call, June 20: More explosives found

edit; added link to article


[Edited on by bio2]

DeAdFX - 21-6-2007 at 09:36

The only sort of "terrorism" involved so far is from the author mentioning the usage of explosives/thermite in previous forms of "terror" and the mention of the parking lot explosives. At worst he might be out for blood and at best he is a red herring.

Shessh did some ass clown from the equal treatment of minorities write this? Well it seems the terrorists have become much more sneakier. Outsourcing terror to your average everyday white Christian American eh?

Even if the guy is a terrorist does it matter? The media potrays muslims as terrorist inclined people. This incident will probably never get national attention unless the guy in suspect does something drastic like pulling another OKC stunt... Either that everyone will be distracted by the sales of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and those evil fertilizer companies that no one will give a shit about the loss of a few thousand americans.

Pyridinium - 21-6-2007 at 10:24

That article does nothing but sensationalize. The guy's having weapons could mean nothing- maybe he's just a gun collector.

I wish journalists would stop going over the edge on stuff like this.

I'm amused by the phrase "laboratory-grade glassware". As if use of the word "grade" can make it more sensational and outrageous. Oooh, arrest us, we have "laboratory-grade" glassware. Kind of like "military-grade" explosives. Who exactly grades these things?

It is times like these when the media show how despicable they are.

EDIT: If, however, it is true that the man's "devices" were put in places like clinic parking lots and pickup trucks, then the guy is an idiot and deserves to be grabbed. In that case, the authorities can't be blamed for doing something, in fact they'd really have no choice.

I still mistrust the media. That prisonplanet article is especially sensationalized.

Edit 2: It's statements like the following that really disgust me:
"Also, most model rocket enthusiasts use old kitchen utensils, not expensive laboratory-quality glassware, to experiment with fuels, he said."

I can't stand it when ignorant people make ignorant statements which are then reported as concrete fact.

So, if we put it all together, we get this: you have high quality glassware, you're a terrorist; you have low-quality kitchen utensils, you're a meth cook.



[Edited on 21-6-2007 by Pyridinium]

bio2 - 21-6-2007 at 12:07

...........That Prison Planet article is especially sensationalized..............

I agree with you but In fairness to Prison Planet the article was headed by

......Winter Patriot........(whatever or whoever that is)
Thursday June 21, 2007

This is what they (Prison Planet) do everyday; is place a compendium of articles on subjects of interest from various different sources.

Sometimes their comments are also included.

Pyridinium - 21-6-2007 at 12:58

Quote:
Originally posted by bio2
...........That Prison Planet article is especially sensationalized..............

I agree with you but In fairness to Prison Planet the article was headed by

......Winter Patriot........(whatever or whoever that is)
Thursday June 21, 2007

This is what they (Prison Planet) do everyday; is place a compendium of articles on subjects of interest from various different sources.


Ah, yes, I see now. It was Winter Patriot, not Prison Planet. And actually, it looks like much of the sensationalizing came from the original news articles (big surprise there... well, not really).

I so far have read at least 4 of those news articles, and every one of them contains some distorted or hyped statement.

Here's a real gem, from http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13525302/detail.html
" Police said they found more than 200 blasting agents and highly flammable fuels and oxidizers in the home..."

I doubt even the "pros" of the Energetic Materials forum here at SMDB have even 1/10 that many "blasting agents" at any given time.

I would bet money the media have based the "200" statement on a pretty standard journalistic-establishment tactic: every chemical that could remotely be used in making explosives, or which could have some even marginally hazardous property, is being called "blasting agent".

The ploy is either stupid or disingenuous, take your pick.

EDIT: perhaps someone ought to drop a note to Winter Patriot over there, asking him to browse SMDB's "Legal and Societal Issues" (particularly this thread) so he can get an idea of the "other side of the issue".

"Highly flammable fuels", now there's a good one. Paper and gasoline are both "highly flammable fuels".

I feel also a mixture of chagrin and amusement at the use of the word "volatile". Something is not "volatile" unless it has a high vapor pressure at low temperature.

They have so mashed the meaning of words that they've become their own parody.

[Edited on 21-6-2007 by Pyridinium]

[Edited on 21-6-2007 by Pyridinium]

vulture - 21-6-2007 at 14:00

I didn't know sodium azide released toxic gasses in contact with metals...Somebody better recall those airbags! It also shows the insane lack of research that the author didn't even figure it was probably being used to make lead azide.

[Edited on 21-6-2007 by vulture]

Eclectic - 21-6-2007 at 14:51

I've had sodium azide without using it to make lead azide. What is insane is the insistence by law enforcement that NaN3 is an explosive. It's also a sterilant and analytical and synthetic reagent. The reporter is probably just repeating what the "Barney Fife"s said.

Pyridinium - 21-6-2007 at 15:24

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic
I've had sodium azide without using it to make lead azide. What is insane is the insistence by law enforcement that NaN3 is an explosive. It's also a sterilant and analytical and synthetic reagent. The reporter is probably just repeating what the "Barney Fife"s said.


I, too, had a pretty good sized bottle of sodium azide at one time. And I had no intention of using it to make explosives. It's actually great for preventing microbial growth in biochem buffers.

chemkid - 21-6-2007 at 15:40

I doubt he would have been 'caught' if he hadn't set thing off in his drive way. If for example, I was going to through sodium in water (in a good amount) the last place i would do it is in my backyard! Oh yeah, having a huge stock of guns doesn't help either! Probably could of have been a little less stupid (nitroglycerin) and he wouldn't have gotten caught.

I have to sympathize with the police on this one. We just can't have people posesing/setting off large amounts of explosives.

Edit: In reading more of the articles I must admit some of this stuff is totally ridiculous:

During Tuesday's search, police found more items that can be used to make explosives, including vitamins, rock salt and fertilizer, Longmont Sgt. Tim Lewis said

Oh no out law rock salt and vitamins!

[Edited on 21-6-2007 by chemkid]

Eclectic - 21-6-2007 at 16:01

The point is that he apparently did NOT have large amounts of explosives, he just had a few lab "events" that required him to air out his garage. Once law enforcement makes allegations to the press, there is a mad scramble to find "evidence", rationality goes out the window, and it's "BURN THE WITCH!!!"

Notice that there are no actual numbers? HUGE amounts, ENOURMOUS stockpiles, MASSIVE quantities.

The "nitroglycerine" was destroyed, probably with a blasting cap. Who knows what it was? Nitro-something? Something-glycerine, glycol, glue...

The key clue is that there is insufficient material for a terrorist event.


[Edited on 6-21-2007 by Eclectic]

[Edited on 6-21-2007 by Eclectic]

Sauron - 21-6-2007 at 20:02

Many people have a gallon or more of gasoline in their garage to fuel a lawnmower, plus turpentine, pain thinners, kerosene, naptha for igniting charcoal for BBQ, etc etc. These are "volatile chemicals" that could and sometimes do damege their property and that of others in the neighborhood.

But no one paints the guy who mows his lawn, barbacues his steaks, or thins his housepaints as a mad bomber or arsonist. Nor should they.

On the other hand, I suspect that PETN and NG probably are illegal to manufacture and possess without requisite state and federal licenses and those will demand proper storage (usually defined by ATF). This certainly applies to for example, black powder as sold for shooting replica and antique firearms, for example.

Ammonium nitrate is still a fertilizer and so is potassium chlorare for certain kinds of fruit. Rural people often have commercial dynamite for blowing stumps and that does not make them mad bombers either.

This guy just has a little PR problem and an overzealous police department on his case.

The_Davster - 21-6-2007 at 21:32

What is the basis for this "he just had a few lab "events" that required him to air out his garage."? I am assuming it is an applicable generalization to the sensationalist media, or is there a more balanced article somewhere out there?

Excellent point on the lack of numbers Eclectic.
Using reporter logic:
1g of explosive is infinetly greater than zero, the ammount most people have. Infinity is pretty huge.
And thus we have "Huge Cache Of Explosives"

Volatile is the word in news that can be used to clue in on reporter crap. They use it whenever a chemical is mentioned.

Also, it was the police that detonated the supposed nitroglycernin in his driveway, not him.

Between a couple articles they switch between lead azide and sodium azide. Silly reporters.

[Edited on 21-6-2007 by The_Davster]

froot - 21-6-2007 at 23:27

If journalists were held more accountable for what they write in their reports then we could take them seriously. At the moment , there seems to be no recourse against them and they can distort things to their hearts desire to impress others. Where does it stop being innaccuracy and start becoming public deformation?

If this reporter, and most others took a stroll through my sweet old grand mother's house I'm sure he could make her look like a psycho terrorist if he wanted to. I think that kinda sums it up for this article.

Sauron - 22-6-2007 at 00:06

Unfortunately the vast majority of the great unwashed public gets "informed" by hacks like this who are too lazy and too stupid to acquire even a superficial understanding of their subject matter.

To make matters worse, since print is in its death throes, most people actually get their alleged information from television news, which is so shabby and incompetent as to make even these newsies in the case at hand look like shining examples of Pulitzer quality journalism.

Most likely in this instance there is a cozy little axis of disinformation going between the selfimportant police sgt. who made the bust and the reporter(s) who puffed it up into a newsworthy event. The sgt. wants a promotion, and the reporters want juicy news. The cop gets to look important, the reporters get to fill up some white space without having to actually go and ferret out any real news.

This sort of non-event journalism goes on all the bloody time.

woelen - 22-6-2007 at 02:31

This reminds me of a really stupid thing, now one year ago.

Apparently, some transport agency lost a parcel from one of its vans. This was a parcel, filled with calcium nitrate, and it was labeled as such.

That morning, a big warning was in our local news paper, telling that a box, filled with very dangerous calcium nitrate was lost and could be somewhere on/near the road. People were instructed not to touch the box, in the possible event of finding it. They should immediately call the local police and tell them where the highly explosive chemical is. People were told that this is a friction sensitive very explosive chemical. This is total bullshit. A bag of ordinary ammonium nitrate fertilizer is more dangerous than calcium nitrate, and nobody is scared of such fertilizers.

Sadly I did not find the box :D .

quicksilver - 22-6-2007 at 05:32

Personally; the best lines there are:

"How much nitroglycerin does one need to commit an act of terrorism? Or does that depend on one's religion or the color of one's skin?"

"And why has this case attracted so little national attention? Or does that depend on religion and skin color, too?"

_____________________ YES IT DOES! ______________

If you happen to be Caucasian you need to possess 6.5 ounces of 2nd explosive and over 21 blasting caps.
If you happen to be Asian you need to possess 4.5 ounces of secondary but 33 blasting caps.
If you happen to be black you need to have 8 ounces but only 16 caps.
If your religion is Muslim than if you possess over 4.5 ounces of secondary, 16 caps and a partridge in a pear tree you may be arrested.
While if Methodist, you must have at least 16 ounces and over 30 caps.......this may seem odd, however. But if Jewish or Buddhist: the numbers are 12 ounces and 21 caps. Catholics need 8 ounces but over 33 caps and a whole lotta' love.

I am shocked that the writer did not know this material as it's common knowledge.....

What a stupid sensationalized piece of tripe. The guy had guns and chems, big deal. He was popping crap in a neighborhood: a major stupid thing to do. Someone could have gotten hurt or he could have started a fire....OK big deal. Fine his ass and move on.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling. The writer could be defined as a seriously dumb cunt. Shit journalism like that is loathsome.

Victoria Camron can be reached at 303-684-5226, or by e-mail at vcamron@times-call.com....she requests that guys stop trying to look up her skirt.

[Edited on 22-6-2007 by quicksilver]

The_Davster - 22-6-2007 at 05:33

I am reminded of the quote, I find it helps explain sheeple mentality.
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."
-- Thomas Jefferson

In all fairness, the reporter who wrote the wired article is special, I am not going to lump him in with the other parasites discussed here.


So the guy had guns and chems, and perhaps explosives. Does not sound like he was hurting anyone. Better hobbies than watching american idol.

[Edited on 22-6-2007 by The_Davster]

[Edited on 22-6-2007 by The_Davster]

Eclectic - 22-6-2007 at 05:46

The Davster: I can't find the exact phrase in the mass of sensational reporting again, but the essence of it was that the police were alerted by neighbors who complained of the sound of explosions coming from the residence, and that the garage door had to be opened to air it out.

Can anyone with real experience tell what the real effect of 1/2 lb of nitroglycerin detonated in the driveway would be vs. the shock and awe effect of detonating a bottle of glycerine with a blasting cap? I think just the cap going off would be "heard and felt throughout the area".

The MEKP in stabilizer sounds like polyester resin catalyst to me.

franklyn - 22-6-2007 at 14:21

selected quotations from cited article _

" police confiscated nitroglycerin, ammonium nitrate, PETN, thermite, and sodium azide, none of which are used as rocket fuels."

Oohh Yeah ? maybe not by the author.

" sodium azide produces a toxic gas when it comes into contact with metal;"

W T F huh ?

" Police detonated the nitroglycerin in Swerlein's driveway."

Heck there's a lot of people in this forum who have done that.

.

bio2 - 22-6-2007 at 19:20

........Can anyone with real experience tell what the real effect of 1/2 lb of nitroglycerin detonated in the driveway would be .........

Seems like a half pound (227g) of nitroglycerin would make a crater in the driveway and freak out the neighbors even more than they already were.

But then I never tried any explosive bigger than the old M-80's.

[Edited on by bio2]

Sauron - 22-6-2007 at 19:46

Half a pound of NG would make a very respectable explosion and definitely would do some damage to the driveway, as the stuff is noted for its brisance.

If this "controlled detonation" did not produce such effects then I would suspect that there never was anything like 227 g NG present. That the NG was a fantasy of the police, and that destroying the nonexistant NG was a convenient way to perpetuate the fantasy, particularly in court.

DeAdFX - 23-6-2007 at 11:54

I am surprised these wankers weren't able to find this little gem. http://www.space-rockets.com/


Google search Ammonium Nitrate rockets...
First result brings up TOTSE which mentions that Ammonium Nitrate can be used as a rocket fuel(which seems to be a copy-paste of another site). Space-rockets(JOHN wickam) is a few results down. How odd it seems that a bunch of incoherent dumbshits are a couple notches higher up on the IQ scale compared to something as "respectable" as a news organization.

[Edited on 23-6-2007 by DeAdFX]

Fleaker - 23-6-2007 at 21:00

Half a pound of NG would guarantee broken windows throughout the neighborhood.

Winter - 23-6-2007 at 21:13

Hi. Sorry I'm late.

Ralph left me a nice comment on my blog telling me about you and I came over as fast as I could. You can slap my wrists if necessary but I'm here to learn.

I've read all your comments and plead guilty as charged, sort of... I've actually been trying to un-spin the original local news reports, and maybe I haven't done the greatest job, but now that I know you're here maybe we can change that.

Even before I got here I was informed of what I think was my most glaring error, and I've done what I can to fix it. I updated my original post (the one on my blog, not the piece re-published at prison planet) to reflect what I've learned, and there's nothing that says I can't update it again ...

I have also been in contact with a former military explosives expert who is now a rocketry and pyrotechnics enthusiast, and he's trying to help steer me in the right direction.

At the moment I have two basic sorts of questions:

My ex-mil source has told me that ammonium nitrate, thermite and nitroglycerin are indeed used in rocket fuels but that PETN, MEKP and Soduim Azide are not. Anyone care to comment on this one?

I've been asking him questions like whether there would be a plausible reason why somebody would want to experiment with PETN, MEKP and/or Sodium Azide in a rocket fuel ... anybody care to answer that one?

~~~

Also, several sources have told me that sodium azide produces a toxic gas when it reacts with metal and that's why people get burns from air-bags. Are they wrong about this? And if so can you fill me in?

~~~

On another front, here's a link to the items on my website that discuss this story.

http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/search/label/Ronald%20Swer...

If anyone can offer constructive criticism on any aspect of any post, I will be grateful.

You can leave a comment for me there, or here, or send me email: winterpatriot@gmail.com


Thank you very much.

WP

half a pound of NG in the driveway

Winter - 23-6-2007 at 21:23

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Half a pound of NG would make a very respectable explosion and definitely would do some damage to the driveway, as the stuff is noted for its brisance.

If this "controlled detonation" did not produce such effects then I would suspect that there never was anything like 227 g NG present. That the NG was a fantasy of the police, and that destroying the nonexistant NG was a convenient way to perpetuate the fantasy, particularly in court.


the police built a bunker of sandbags and detonated the NG inside it, according to news reports. there's even some video. they evacuated several homes and nobody got hurt but it did do some damage to the garage door, according to one report. Does that sound reasonable to you?

Winter - 23-6-2007 at 21:31

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic

The key clue is that there is insufficient material for a terrorist event.



I don't think so. That was the mistake, I think.

Clearly if he had half a pound of Nitroglycerin that would have been sufficient to commit a terrorist act. And IMO the police Sgt was dumb to say it wasn't, if that's actually what he said.

But look at it the other way: if the guy had all this stuff and had never done anything with it other than tinker around in his garage, then it sure looks like he wasn't trying very hard to hurt anybody, doesn't it?

In other words, what is sufficient material for a terrorist event?

Oh, sorry, that's been answered already, hasn't it?

franklyn - 23-6-2007 at 22:47

@ bio2
Where do you get the half pound figure from I didn't read that in the cited article.
Honestly , the only reason I can see why anyone would intentionally detonate NG
at all is to put on a " show " that justifies earning hazardous duty pay for that
month. NG is very stable chemically and if mixed with acetone it becomes quite
safe even to ordinary bumps and splashes. Poured out and ignited on the driveway
a pound or so of mixed NG and acetone will burn away in less than 2 minutes or
so. Whatever residue may be left can be absorbed with powdered kitty litter ,
swept up into a box and left at the curb for the next garbage collection. Very
similar to how it is administered in tablets as a medicinal pharmaceutical to treat
angina. So much for the drama of bomb disposal.


@ winter
A rule of thumb about prospective rocket propellants is that anything that can be
used to shoot a projectile from a gun can be adapted for use as a rocket fuel.
The solid propellants in common use are as you state but this does not preclude
experimental investigation of the others. On page 280 of The chemistry of Powders
and Explosives it states how PETN may be processed into smokeless propellant
for use in guns. The likely reason this would not find commercial application is the
higher cost relative to other compunds of equal merit. The only " toxic " product
obtained from the deflagration of NaN3 is the Sodium formed which is quite caustic
however the fumes of this are hardly any worse than the smoke of a burning tire.
There's this nice Yahoo group devoted to amateur rocketry using ammonium nitrate.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/NO3-propellants

.

[Edited on 8-7-2007 by franklyn]

Sauron - 23-6-2007 at 23:05

It would be a simple calculation to estimate how many sticks of standard size commercial dynamite of a given % NG it would take to be equivalent to 227 g NG.

Then ask yourself whether or not a makeshift sandbag bunker is going to contain such a blast, or more likely, the sandbags will be turned into dust, or projectiles.

It does sound, though, that maybe they achieved a detonation of something more than the cap or caps they used to initiate. A #8 or #9 blasting cap isn't all that impressive, on its own. I would be instructive to see the video.

I would say that is this chap did make 227 g NG and was storing it in his home in a residential community, he was (a) an idiot, and (b) recklessly endangering himself and his neighbors. This is still however a bif "if" as far as I am concerned. If it really was half a lb NG then the cops were prudent to blow it in place rather than trying to transport it, although they usually do have containment vessels on vehicles made to do just that. I bet Denver PD does even if this little Barney Fyfe dept doesn't. I spent some time with Denver's SWAT team a quarter century ago and they seemed to be pretty sharp. Dunno about the bomb squad.

Franklyn is correct that most high explosives can be modified into or incorporated into propellant mixtures either for firearms, or for rocketry. Just about everyone will know that double base smokeless powders are NG and NC. More contemporary firearms propellants include the Dynamit Nobel caseless propellant for the G11 assault rifle, which is based on HMX or RDX or both. Firearms propellants based on PETN have been known for many years.

It does not seem very likely that the individual in question was a rocketeer or a prepellant chemist, now, does it?

Nor does it seem likely that he was a terrorist.

[Edited on 24-6-2007 by Sauron]

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 04:35

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron


It does not seem very likely that the individual in question was a rocketeer or a propellant chemist, now, does it?

Nor does it seem likely that he was a terrorist.

[Edited on 24-6-2007 by Sauron]


I am coming more and more to believe that he was not a terrorist, but I am having more trouble deciding whether to believe that he was a rocketeer or a propellant chemist.

Granted that he doesn't fit the usual description of a chemist doing safe experiments in a controlled environment ... and I'm sure it would be correct to call him "careless" and "reckless" at best ... but what makes you think he wasn't experimenting with propellants or tinkering with rockets?

As I've mentioned, I'm open to all sorts of ideas ...

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 04:59

MEKP in stabilizer is a catalyst hardener for fiberglass resin. It is NOT an explosive!

The police are looking at EVERTHING in a container and trying to come up with ways it COULD be used illegally. Have we fallen into an alternate dimension where the scenarios in "Minority Report" and "The Running Man" are actually real, and we now live in a Stalinist police state?

There are exemptions in most explosives manufacturing laws for "inventors" and research activities. The man has several patents. I think he qualifies as an "inventor".

We don't know WHAT was detonated in the driveway, or what materials were piled and mixed together before being detonated. If some ammonium nitrate had kerosine, oil, or nitromethane poured on in, and then was detonated, then, yes, there were explosives destroyed in the driveway, but is was the police that "manufactured" them. Who knows? The "Evidence" has been destroyed.

[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 05:02

You can see the video of last Saturday's demolition at this link

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13515687/detail.html

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 05:04

Well let's suppose he was an inventor, Eclectic ... even if he was "exempt from most explosives manufacturing laws" he would have been bound by local zoning laws, at least, no?

Or is it ok to manufacture explosives in a garage in a residential area?

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 05:13

It's not much of an explosion, is it. But the police got to use their fancy new antiterrorism toys.

It's all a matter of quantities involved, and methods. There is hardly a public danger from a firecracker size explosion. Having materials that COULD be use to make a sizeable explosive mixture, doesn't mean that they WERE used in such a manner, or were intended for such use.

Yes, if the guy actually made and stored 1/2 lb of PURE nitroglycerine in a residential area, he's an irresponsible lunatic, but we don't know what was actually destroyed. After all, the police think fiberglass resin catalyst is a dangerous explosive.

I also wonder how big a library had to be searched to come up with the few "scary" books that were mentioned.

[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 05:36

Here's more of what I'm thinking; tell me if you think this is plausible or off-base or whatever ...

Swerlein was injured in a car accident a few years ago and he had to retire because he couldn't work anymore. Maybe he got bored hanging around the house all day and decided to tinker around with some chemistry ... maybe be was interested in rockets before, perhaps as a kid -- he's 50 so he would have come of age at the right time to be into model rockets as a kid ... clearly he knew what he was doing ... and he spent thousands of dollars on good glassware and whatever he was doing he was clearly into it ... maybe he's thinking "I could make a better rocket fuel" and he starts going in that direction ...

and maybe his injury involved a little bit of brain damage, just enough that he could be oblivious to what the neighbors and thinking, what DHS is thinking, and so on ... and he may be trying unconventional stuff, using ingredients that are "not used in rocket fuel" but perhaps could be? ... I don't know, I'm just guessing ... and I'm wondering how plausible it sounds to you? Anybody?

I agree the guns and ammo are legal and no big deal; I agree the books and magazines are legal and no big deal either ; I agree most of the chemicals are legal and he should be allowed to have them; and he should be allowed to do whatever he wants with them provided he doesn't endanger anybody ; and I'm thinking maybe he IS just a chemist and maybe it's right that he's out on bail and it could well be true that the neighbors have nothing to worry about ... anybody care to comment on any of this?

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 05:51

Well, it was true when I was on the receiving end of this sort of unwanted attention, except that I wasn't working with any pyrotechnic mixtures or explosive compounds. All I had was lot's of scary scientific and technical "stuff". I was accused of having materials used to make Ricin, a deadly poison, because I had a gallon of castor bean oil (Ricinus communis). A urethane flexible foam kit threatened a Bhopal type disaster because it contained deadly isocyanates. And on, and on.

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 06:05

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic
Well, it was true when I was on the receiving end of this sort of unwanted attention, except that I wasn't working with any pyrotechnic mixtures or explosive compounds. All I had was lot's of scary scientific and technical "stuff". I was accused of having materials used to make Ricin, a deadly poison, because I had a gallon of castor bean oil (Ricinus communis). A urethane flexible foam kit threatened a Bhopal type disaster because it contained deadly isocyanates. And on, and on.


ok gotcha and that's the sort of BS I hate ... I write about this kind of thing in a lot of other contexts ... but at this point I am mostly interested in a different question:
is there any reason why this guy's claim -- that he's an amateur rocket scientist -- is implausible?

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 06:18

Not implausible, but is that actually what he said? Just because he
may have done some experiments with propellants doesn't mean he wasn't working on a LOT of other things.

And the "brain damage" hypothesis isn't necessary either. How may people who end up in technical fields of endeavor have a trace of "Asperger's Synrdome" or adult autism in their psyche?

But the man is odd, he's different, so "BURN THE WITCH!!!"

[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 06:32

is that actually what he said? "amateur rocket scientist" was my phrase not his; he says he's been experimenting with different chemicals to use as rocket fuels ...

I agree he may have been working on a lot of other things and here's my next question

Do you get the impression that he may have been using "rocketry" as a "cover story" so to speak, a way to explain away "other things"?

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 06:56

Well sure. He's being accused of being a terrorist, and asked to explain "why do you have that" and "what do you use that for".

It's like asking a cook what he uses a particular ingredient for, or asking a machinist what he uses a particular piece of stock material for or asking an artist why do you have that very toxic material (pigment), or asking a chemist why he has chemicals. It's very difficult to answer a question like that when it's asked by someone completely ignorant of your areas of interest who is looking at your prize possessions with ignorance, fear, and suspicion. It's all EVIL, HAZARDOUS, material, that no one in their right mind would have.

I don't know that this guy is in the right. I DO know that the way this is being handled is WRONG.

"Give me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find an excuse in them to hang him" - Cardinal Richelieu

Imagine, if you will, the same methods and accusations leveled at ANY university laboratory, with the attitude that it's perfectly reasonable for law enforcement to seize and destroy ANYTHING that they do not understand. Now bring in an EPA potitical appointee to supervise the local hazmat guys, who mainly deal with digging up fuel tanks and disposing of old petroleum products.

The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street. <--click here

If this sort of thing continues, then Al Qaeda and their ilk have won the "War on Terror".



[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 09:12

well, no! he's NOT being accused of being a terrorist. All along the police have been saying "this doesn't look like it has anything to do with terrorism" ... they may have been questioning him on what he used certain things for, but he's free on bond now and he's not being questioned at all as far as I know ...

the charges against him are all for possession of banned substances ... but nobody is accusing him of anything regarding terrorism ... at least nobody with any legal standing.

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 09:25

I mean the initial attitude, and the treatment in the press.

Also, WHAT banned substances?!! What if anything does he have that it is not perfectly legal for him to have? If he has ANYTHING that requires a license to purchase or own, has the question even been asked "Do you have a license for that"?

In my case I had 25g reference samples of uranium nitrate and thorium nitrate. There is a general license allowing possesion of no more than 15 lbs of such materials. I had pesticides. I also had a private pesticide applicator's license. Was I asked? NO. My property was simply seized and destroyed .


[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 09:42

what banned substances? nitroglycerin for one, unless I am badly mistaken.

I've been told the reason why he would make NG is because he couldn't get it any other way, and that it's as illegal to make it as it is to buy it.

is my source wrong about that?

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 09:47

meanwhile ... what can you tell me about MEKP?

according to some sources it is very easy to make and very explosive

a comment earlier in this thread says MEKP "is not an explosive" if it's in stabilizer ...

Two questions

[1] How easily can it be separated from the stabilizer?

and

[2] if you did that, would this render the MEKP explosive once again?

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 10:15

Quantities, methods, and motives. Do we know how much, if any, he had? Does he fall under an exemption as an inventor or researcher? Is making an small quantity of nitroglycerin actually illegal? What law. Quote it in it's entirety.

Foolish, maybe. Irresponsible, maybe. It sort of depends on whether or if he made 2.5 grams or 250grams. Was what was found pure 100%, or was it 1% diluted in a 250ml of solvent to stabilize it?

The MEKP is a non issue. ANYONE with basic knowlege of chemistry can make acetone peroxide or MEKP. And I'm not going to tell you how if you can't figure it out for yourself. Acetone peroxide is the "Shoe Bomber" explosive. MEKP is less sensitive when pure, and is totally innocuous when compounded as a polyester resin curative.

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 10:41

Don't worry -- I'm not asking you to tell me how to make anything! I'm just trying to understand what's gone on here, then maybe I can help my readers make some sense of it.

The MEKP questions are not necessarily related to this case -- I've run into conflicting discussions of it in the past and I'm thinking here maybe you can help me get some clarification on it. That's all.

I didn't see anything about acetone peroxide in this story but I've come across it in the past -- and I agree that it doesn't have any bearing on this case; on the other hand I wasn't the one who mentioned it. ;-)

Speaking of motives ... the police say Swerlein never expressed any animosity towards any group or individual, had never chosen any target or anything like that ... and for these reasons they are not treating it as terrorism-related. The only stated motive according to the man's lawyer was that he was educating himself about rocket fuels ... and this may be true ... I dunno, that's why I'm asking.

According to the press reports I've read they said he had half a pound of nitroglycerin and 130 grams of sodium azide but I do not recall seeing any other quantities mentioned... so as you pointed out there are still a lot of unanswered questions ...

Eclectic - 24-6-2007 at 10:50

Acetone peroxide and MEKP are in the same family, one made with acetone, one with methyl ethyl ketone, both common innocuous hardware, paint store, building supply solvents. So the law enforcement hysteria regarding MEKP in stabilizer is directly related to the "Shoe Bomber"

And how 'bout the deadly dihydrogen monoxide he had? That kills thousands of people every year.

Dihydrogen Monoxide FAQ Site. Click here.

[Edited on 6-24-2007 by Eclectic]

Pyridinium - 24-6-2007 at 13:52

I think if one were so inclined, they could do terrorist acts with many different things in the typical household. Gasoline comes to mind.

Many things people do every day are in legal "gray areas". That's because there are laws against nearly every kind of behavior. It's actually kind of scary, although the intent was probably just to give authorities the ability to grab people they knew were troublemakers. Sort of like bringing Al Capone down on tax evasion.

I'm sure it's technically illegal to possess incendiary devices or their ingredients. If you possess gasoline, you indeed have a key ingredient for an incendiary device. Again, it's a question of intent. Could someone figure out how to remove the stabilizer from MEKP? Perhaps. Destabilizing an organic peroxide is a pretty good way to maim or kill yourself, but it could theoretically be done.

I believe the police are taking the best approach when they say they're really trying to find out what it is he was up to, instead of just assuming the worst (which, as you can find by reading this forum, has happened to at least a couple of people on here).

Winter, I will say your effort to get at the truth on this case is commendable. It shines out far above the average journalist, who just goes around making statements like "200 blasting agents" and then never does a follow up to correct it.

As far as whether the individual things Swerlein had could be used to hurt someone, yes, they could, but again it's a matter of intent. Guns, knives, rocks, lighter fluid, rags, paper, hay bails, bottles, cars, etc. etc. ... all are common items, yet they're all potentially deadly weapons in the hands of someone determined to cause harm.

As the others have said, I think it's a matter not so much of what someone has, or even quantity (well, within a reason- 5 g doesn't concern me at all with regard to criminal intent; 250 g of NG is hazy; 2.5 kg, then I'm worrying), but a matter of those things *plus* a clearly demonstrated intent. If the guy was found with NG + diagrams of bridges and such, I'd really worry.

It all comes down to the constellation of things that form a complete picture. Obviously, revenge books in the guys' house aren't reflecting well on him. I understand there are some amateur chemists who won't even keep a single decongestant pill in their home for fear of being charged with conspiracy to make meth.

Personally, I don't think a man this smart would have things sent directly to his home if he meant to do harm. I watched a documentary recently about a true 'mad bomber' who was very calculating, in fact it took years to catch the guy. He never had anything sent to his home, and in fact none of the stuff used in his crimes was kept in his dwelling. He knew he was doing wrong, and he took great efforts to hide it. When the authorities finally caught him, they had the guy so dead to rights it wasn't funny. It was, as they say in the trade, completely righteous.

Any amateur chemist knows, when you order lab items and chemicals from the Internet or mail order, the first thing that's going to happen if there's any sort of problem in the neighborhood is that the authorities are going to show up at *your* place. The reasoning is, well I'm not out to harm anyone, so I should be OK. Maybe.

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 19:18

Thanks very much for this, Pyridinium ... nice to see such kind words especially after the way this thread started ... unfortunately for all of us, it is not difficult to "shine out far above the average journalist", so I won't let that particular compliment go to my head :cool:

thanks also to everyone else who's been helping me here ... I have more questions and if anyone's interested in fielding them I'll be most grateful ...

~~~

A common public misconception says you wouldn't use explosives AS rocket fuel because they would destroy your rocket ... I'm getting the idea from you guys (and others) that you might want to use an explosive IN rocket fuel to make it more powerful ... is that an accurate way of putting it?

In other words you might not like the idea of a rocket powered by (for example) TATP; and I don't like that idea very much either BTW, but on the other hand you might want to throw a pinch of TATP in with some other things, and as long as you keep the concentration of TATP below a certain limit it won't explode ... but it will give the fuel a bit of a kick it wouldn't have otherwise ... is that a reasonable way of looking at it?

~~~

I'm sorry if these questions seem so dumb -- I'm still learning!

and I'm appreciating the answers very much.

:cool:
:cool:

bio2 - 24-6-2007 at 20:07

Winter, I also appreciate your search for the truth which seems to be sorely lacking in todays media climate.

Little did I realize that when I posted your article that this
would take on a life of it's own.

Even though most of us here on Science Madness are
"amateur" scientists the wealth of knowledge here is
immense. Knowledge for it's own sake and enjoyment is truly a wonderful thing.

Nowdays in my semi-retirement when someone asks me if I am really a mad scientist, I just smile and sheepishly say, yes.

Sauron - 24-6-2007 at 23:21

Sodium azide is NOT an explosive nor is it an ingredient in an explosive mixture AFAIK nor it it a propellant or rocket fuel.

It can be used to make many many other compounds.

A SMALL number of those compounds are primary explosives, such as lead azide or cyanuric triazide. Such explosives are used as initiators (detonators) for secondary explosives (boosters) and high explosives. Most primary explosives are by definiton rather sensitive to shock, heat, and friction and therefore are hard to handle. Care has to be taken in their preparation not to let larger crystals form in many cases because the internal stress of the srystal can be enough to cause explosion.

AFAIK it is not illegal to possess sodium azide in any quantity nor is it an unsafe material to store even in a residential area. I would much rather live next to a house containing a 200 Kg drum of NaN3 than a house containing a 200 L drum of gasoline, or 40 five gallon cans of it.

Winter - 24-6-2007 at 23:26

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Sodium azide is NOT an explosive nor is it an ingredient in an explosive mixture AFAIK nor it it a propellant or rocket fuel.

It can be used to make many many other compounds.

A SMALL number of those compounds are primary explosives, such as lead azide or cyanuric triazide. Such explosives are used as initiators (detonators) for secondary explosives (boosters) and high explosives. Most primary explosives are by definiton rather sensitive to shock, heat, and friction and therefore are hard to handle. Care has to be taken in their preparation not to let larger crystals form in many cases because the internal stress of the srystal can be enough to cause explosion.

AFAIK it is not illegal to possess sodium azide in any quantity nor is it an unsafe material to store even in a residential area. I would much rather live next to a house containing a 200 Kg drum of NaN3 than a house containing a 200 L drum of gasoline, or 40 five gallon cans of it.


thanks for this ... I am working on another article for the series and the more I learn as soon as possible the better it will be ... so if anybody else sees anything else in the original reporting or in my work or in this thread that seems screwed up, please say so!

thanks again -- you guys are ok after all :D

franklyn - 24-6-2007 at 23:45

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
Sodium azide is NOT an explosive nor is it a propellant or rocket fuel.

It is certainly used as a propellant in automobile air bags. It's latent energy is
comparable to hydrogen peroxide which has established utility in moving objects.
If both are combined to react hypergolically the result will certainly be uplifting.
4 NaN3 + H2O2 -> 2 Na2O + 6N2 + H2 , it's cost however makes this unlikely.

.

froot - 25-6-2007 at 01:30

Quote:
Originally posted by Winter
~~~

A common public misconception says you wouldn't use explosives AS rocket fuel because they would destroy your rocket ... I'm getting the idea from you guys (and others) that you might want to use an explosive IN rocket fuel to make it more powerful ... is that an accurate way of putting it?

In other words you might not like the idea of a rocket powered by (for example) TATP; and I don't like that idea very much either BTW, but on the other hand you might want to throw a pinch of TATP in with some other things, and as long as you keep the concentration of TATP below a certain limit it won't explode ... but it will give the fuel a bit of a kick it wouldn't have otherwise ... is that a reasonable way of looking at it?

~~~


Traditional rocket 'fuels' consist of 2 components, a fuel, and an oxidiser. These 2 components react vigourously with each other when ignited (in most cases) producing vast amounts of gas and in return producing the thrust of the rocket engine. The 2 components can be mixed with caking agents, reaction supressing agents and so on.
I suppose explosives used as rocket fuels can be understood as those 2 components combined in 1 molecule, together with a combustion supressant where needed. Properties of certain explosives lend themselves favourably to such applications while others certainly don't.
I hope I explained that correctly.

Eclectic - 25-6-2007 at 04:38

Also, whether or not something is an "explosive" depends on the use to which it is put, and the conditions it is subjected to. Ammonium nitrate, unless it is mixed in the proper proportions with a fuel, and triggered by a fairly significant explosion, such as that produced by 1/4 to 1/2 stick of dynamite is fairly inert. Nothing in a normal environment is going to make it "explode". You might as well worry about the hydrogen in a glass of water suddenly undergoing atomic fusion and going off like a hydrogen bomb.

Sauron - 25-6-2007 at 04:52

I take your point but maybe you never heard of Texas City? A shipload of AN went up for no apparent reason and took a major chunk of the area along with it. The year was 1947.

ANFO even with a good HE boost often fails to detonate completely and some of the charge gets wasted.

---------------

So NaN3 can be used as a gas generator, producing nitrogen, hydrogen, and (solid) Na2O? Of course the H2O2 will be as a soln, so the Na2O produced will react with excess water if any (must be) and leave NaOH, isn't it so?

This is still not a pyrotechnic mix, at least not as used in auto safety airbags, is it? It would not do to have heat or reaction ignite the H2. Of course in absence of O2 nothing would happen anyway.

At what % H2O2 does rxn with NaN3 turn into a propulsive combination? (If any)?

I have not seen anything about this fellow Swerlein having any unusually strong H2O2, or any H2O2 at all for that matter. My surmise, were I in the business of surmising, would be that he had other plans for the sodium azide. What other plans, deponent knoweth not.




[Edited on 25-6-2007 by Sauron]

franklyn - 25-6-2007 at 05:20

@ Sauron
Not certain that refers my post or not , hard to follow your shorthand.
For deploying an airbag NaN3 is ignited on it's own for the N2 it produces
3NaN3 -> Na3N + 4N2

My conjecture in using a peroxide rocket situated ahead of a solid matrix
booster made of NaN3 is my own musing. Such an arrangement would be
throttle-able , a desirable but difficult to achieve ability in solid propellant
compositions.
Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
At what % H2O2 does rxn with NaN3 turn into a propulsive combination? (If any)?

Your're quite right , I did not indicate the decomposition of H2O2
so then _ 8NaN3 + [ 2H2O + O2 ] -> 4Na2O + 12N2 + 2H2

Update

Oops this should teach me not to assume what I don't know for fact.
Although Lithium does form a nitride readily Sodium does so only by heroic effort
so the decomposition of the azide only yeilds Nitrogen and elemental Sodium !
http://sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=0008ACD8-5...
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8020/8020notw9.html

Additionally , the acidified hydrolysis of Sodium azide does yeild Hydrazoic acid
gas which is comparable to Prussic acid in biological effect.
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/sodiumazide/basics/facts.asp

Apparently there has been research for applying Sodium azide as a propellant.
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metad...


[Edited on 8-7-2007 by franklyn]

Eclectic - 25-6-2007 at 05:44

Check the actual circumstances of the Texas City disaster. The ship was on fire for a LONG time. The ammonium nitrate, as I recall, was wet with oil to keep down dust. The steel walls of the hold where the ammonium nitrate was held were red hot. There were 100s of tons of ammonium nitrate already undergoing autodecomposition at high temperatures, and I think they used explosives to try and let sea water in. Hardly a "normal environment".

There was a Discovery Channel show about great disasters that covered this several years ago.

Lot's of things can be MADE to explode in the right circumstances, such as flour in a grain mill silo, but that doesn't make them dangerous, volatile, EXPLOSIVES.

[Edited on 6-25-2007 by Eclectic]

Sauron, do you have OTHER PLANS for your prize possessions?
Such baseless, prejudicial speculation serves no good purpose.

[Edited on 6-25-2007 by Eclectic]

Sauron, I realize you didn't mean it that way. I just noticed that it COULD be taken that way, if quoted out of context. Not that anyone would ever do that...

[Edited on 6-25-2007 by Eclectic]

In this context, dangerously volatile, explosive phrases and ideas can be far more destructive than actual things.

[Edited on 6-25-2007 by Eclectic]

quicksilver - 25-6-2007 at 06:36

It's funny that it had been mentioned so infrequently that IF this man meant any harm he would have disguised his purchases.......he had the stuff sent to his home and experimented in a relaxed (non-clandestine) fashion. Which were, perhaps, the gist of his problems but subtle proof to his lack on criminal intent. This guy certainly had the intelligence to get the chemicals sent elsewhere, etc. Simply sounds like he though his neighbors wouldn't be put off by some noise......
NG is commonly available in smokeless powder in 1,4,8 pound, and larger lots. It's use in a propellant is very common but expensive. Rocketry? Certainly could be features of a rocket hobby stuff happening there; who knows....? I don't think that's the point.....he was no real threat to the neighborhood. I seriously doubt that this guy had anywhere near 1/2 lb of NG. Think about the field response to it's discovery.

Sauron - 25-6-2007 at 06:50

To some (IMO foolish) people, any non-commercial, non-institutional lab is a clandestine lab unless, one supposes, he put up a huge sign in the front yard saying THIS WAY TO THE LAB.

The very concept of a legitimate personal, private home laboratory without any connotations of criminality has been eroded by the drug cooks and their antagonists, by the media, and by the last six years of antiterror paranoia.

I had a home lab as a pre-adolescent and adolescent. After that I had a real lab at the university, first in a group lab and then my own private one with bench and 2-meter hood.

But those were kindler gentler times.

Eclectic - 25-6-2007 at 09:13

Exactly. As I said before:

The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street. <--(click here) No, really. Click Here! And read the whole thing. :D



[Edited on 6-25-2007 by Eclectic]

Sauron - 25-6-2007 at 09:30

That's a title of a (Rod Serling) Twilight Zone episode, except that I think it was Main street but I could be wrong.

halogen - 25-6-2007 at 13:10

I was always under the impression that NaN3 was quite explosive. So how can the cylinder of NaN3 in an airbag decompose so swiftly were it not for a detonation? ;)
I certainly would not situate myself next to large amounts of it. (If not because in contact with moisture it can form hydrazoic acid... not a vitamine by a long shot :D)

Eclectic - 25-6-2007 at 13:17

It's mixed with other stuff so that it makes lots of nitrogen gas very fast when triggered WITHOUT exploding. Also without peppering you with molten sodium. It wouldn't be much of a safety device if it involved 100 or so grams of explosive going off right in front of you!

Sauron - 26-6-2007 at 08:03

Sodium azide is not explosive.

Some metal azides are primary explosives and some organic azides are as well. As a general rule I would suspect all organic azides of potentially being explosive (shock/heat/friction sensitive) till proven otherwise, it's just prudent lab practice.

I seem to recall that in Malaysia a couple years ago some suspected jihadist type was arrested after buying sodium azide and some other pretty innocuous chemicals. However I do not regard the actions of the Islamist police state in that country of being worthy of emulation elsewhere, and so I still regard sodium azide as a routine and mostly harmless reagent unless and until additional facts indicate it is being abused for nefarious purposes.

Winter - 26-6-2007 at 08:12

I haven't said much lately as I've been busy on the Swerlein case as well as a few other things but I AM reading and I appreciate all your comments very much! So thanks again.

Here's a question for anybody who's game

=====================================

What do you think of the following quote?

=====================================

Warren Musselman, a board member of the Northern Colorado Rocketry Club, said on Tuesday that the explosive chemicals police have identified from the home are not components of fuels used in model rocketry.

“Our stuff burns at a predictable rate and creates a lot of gas,” he said. “Explosives don’t burn. They detonate.”

Musselman said chemicals like PETN and sodium azide are dangerous and are simply not model rocket fuel ingredients.

“Explosives of any kind don’t have anything to do with the rocketry hobby,” he said.

He estimated that only 2 percent of hobbyists make their own propellents, which typically consists of ammonium perchlorate, epoxies and powdered aluminum or magnesium.

People in the small rocketry community don’t remember Swerlein attending any meetings or events, he said.

http://www.longmontfyi.com/Local-Story.asp?id=17004

=====================================

All points of view gratefully accepted. As always.

Thanks again.
WP

Eclectic - 26-6-2007 at 08:46

Those are guys who fire small model rockets propelled by hobby shop rocket motors. They have a great interest in distancing themselves from public suspicion that their hobby may be in ANY way hazardous. You need to pay more attention to propellant chemists and folks that are members of Tripoli Rocketry Association:

Tripoli <--This is a Hyperlink, go there!

The difference between an explosive and a propellant is a matter of intent, formulation, and mode of combustion. A pint of gasoline mixed in the proper proportion with air and detonated will make one hell of an explosion, ie: a fuel/air explosive. Yet you don't see gas stations being shut down and having their inventory seized and destroyed. But 5 gallons of kerosene are viewed with suspicion as a dangerous volatile explosive accelerant liquid, once allegations are levied, and suspicions and fears aroused. Do explosives have any legitimate use in modern automotive technology? What kind of dangerous lunatics would heat their homes with EXPLOSIVES?!!


[Edited on 6-26-2007 by Eclectic]

obsessed_chemist - 26-6-2007 at 22:14

I'm just wondering how the police department, who claimed they couldn't initially identify the source of the explosions, could then serve a search warrant first without confronting Swerline after figuring out where it was coming from.

It's just seems so obvious that the overzealous 'tough-guy' police/bomb-squad had every intention to ensure they twisted the scenario to make their actions seem vindicated. They put on a big "show" to validate their over-inflated budgets.

The citizens and news reporter seemed to be your typical run-of-the-mill brainwashed zombie-types who are completely ignorant to this particular discourse of science. The only terrorist involved were the police. The man in question certainly didn't helped his case by his unsociable behaviour, however.

The problem I see here is:

(a) the government/police seem to think that they're the only ones who are qualified to have extraneous amounts of guns/weapons (save gun-dealers, who are also victims of harrasment).

(b) freedom of the press has erroded, and one can be pressumed 'guilty' until proven innocent based on the nature of the books the subject checks out at the local public library.

(c) who's watching the watchers? In this case, the press is used as a tool to instill fear in average citizens towards amateur scientists, and the actions of the police are also backed-up by paid associates/specialists.

These citizens should be more concerned about the ease of which one's private dwelling can be invaded, than some geek's responible interest and pursuit in the study of energetic compounds/mixtures.

Winter - 26-6-2007 at 22:31

as it happens, some details about the police and how they got the warrant have just been published

... here's a link (subscription required)

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/jun/24/swerlein-armory-...


and here are some excerpts

*****

Sean Hardy was sitting in his Sunset Drive living room at 11 p.m. on June 9 when he heard what sounded like a bomb detonating right outside his house.

When he went outside to investigate, he later told police, he saw Swerlein's garage door open and whitish-gray smoke billowing out. Hardy then watched the man unscrew a light bulb inside the garage, making it dark, and begin picking debris up off the ground.

Hardy said he didn't know much about his neighbor across the street, except that he had an awful lot of UPS deliveries. It seems none of the neighbors knew much about Swerlein and his wife, Julie Dadone, who have lived in the home since 1981.

Longmont police dispatchers, however, were quite familiar with Swerlein's neighbors, who complained of loud, bomb-like noises that woke some out of deep sleep in the middle of the night. Police reported fielding 15 complaints of bombs, fireworks and shots fired from the area over the past 18 months. But by the time an officer arrived, there were no leads to follow.

Hardy said an officer once parked his car on the street for most of the night to try to crack the case, but that night there were no explosions.

Bob and Cathy Evans said Swerlein was a quiet neighbor who kept to himself.

"Until like 3 in the morning," Bob Evans said.

A bad back keeps Evans awake at night, he said, and during smoke breaks on the back deck, he occasionally heard explosions and saw flashes of light. Police guessed they were firecrackers, he said.

"I was in the Marine Corps, and I know what a bomb sounds like," he said.

Their neighbor Ray Balzer became obsessed with finding the source of the explosions, the Evanses said.

One night, he sat awake in a park at the end of their street all night, hoping to catch the culprit. But again, that night the neighborhood was silent.

Balzer also knocked on all his neighbors' doors, asking if they, too, had heard the noises. All said they had — except for Swerlein.

Balzer called police June 13, when he learned they were looking for help finding who was leaving small bomb devices at the Longmont Clinic. His wife warned police to be careful because of the number and size of the explosions, according to a police report.

Police move in

Longmont police called in federal agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to help.

After going through Swerlein's trash June 15 and reporting that they found empty UPS boxes that once contained signal flares or signal pistols, a magazine for a semi-automatic handgun and blackened fragments of a pipe bomb, they asked a judge for a search warrant. They were given permission to go in.

*****

Having gained permission to search the place, the police don't appear to have hesitated too much

more excerpts:

*****

That night at 6:00, SWAT team members surrounded the house and announced they had a warrant. After nobody responded, they shot tear-gas canisters in through the windows, including a large, plate-glass window in the front of the house, police said.

Swerlein and his wife then emerged through the front door. They were handcuffed and taken to a nearby park for questioning.

Officers also took Swerlein's shorts to examine them for evidence, giving him a gown to wear.

Police wearing gas masks swept the house. They said an upstairs bedroom was full of bottles of chemicals, and it appeared there was bomb shrapnel embedded in a wall.

More chemicals were found stuffed in an upstairs closet and strewn around the basement, police said. Several bottles filled a refrigerator, and more were stashed underneath the stairwell.

Police said it looked like things had been blown up in the garage.


*****

more here:

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007/jun/24/swerlein-armory-...

or here:

http://winterparking.blogspot.com/2007/06/boulder-daily-came...

Sauron - 26-6-2007 at 22:58

Obviously Swerlein was committing a public nuisance and disturbing the peace by setting off explosions in the middle of the night.

Had he engaged in even minimal outreach to his neighbors and done a little constructive PR about his hobby, confining his tests to daylight hours, or even better, doing them off in the countryside, he probably would not now be in hot water.

Soe of the neighbors do sound like nosy busybodies. Is it a crime now to get a lot of UPS deliveries? Or were the UPS drivers all Arabs?

(That is a reference to a case in Calif. where two Arab UPS drivers made a complaint against their boss dor jokingly referring to them as terrorists.)

Eclectic - 27-6-2007 at 04:28

Am I the only one here who is bothered by the statements from the police and press that Swerlein had 200-400 CHEMICALS? As if chemicals were somehow inherently illegal, dangerous, suspicious, and EVIL?
I wonder how the poor dope is expected to clothe or transport himself, eat, drink, breathe, or carry on any of the functions of a living, or even dead, organism, if he is not to be allowed possesion of CHEMICALS.

EVERYTHING is CHEMICALS!


[Edited on 6-27-2007 by Eclectic]

quicksilver - 27-6-2007 at 05:56

Try reading this whole thread out of context with your morning coffee..... It's sort of pathetic but it's also somewhat funny.

"THE GUY MUST HAVE HAD HUNDREDS OF CHEMICALS IN HIS HOME"....."I SAW THAT HE HAD A LOT OF UPS DELIVERIES"...... "JOE BLOW, FROM THE NORTHERN COLORADO FRIGHTENED ROCKETRY CLUB SAID 'WE DON'T USE ENERGETIC MATERIALS, JUST PERCHLORATES & LOW EXPLOSIVES' " - "DEAR LORD HE HAD A BOTTLE OF SODIUM AZIDE!" THE NEIGHBOR SHRIEKED AS SHE HELD HER CHILDREN CLOSE.....

Winter - 27-6-2007 at 06:14

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic
Am I the only one here who is bothered by the statements from the police and press that Swerlein had 200-400 CHEMICALS?


I'm actually a lot more bothered by some of the other details ... police fired seven canisters of tear gas into his house because he didn't answer when they told him to come out ... then they spent five days ransacking his house while the local paper ran quotes which basically discredited his story and turned out to be false ... the CHEMICALS have now been destroyed (although he had every right to own most of them, and maybe even all of them) [? my sources disagree on this one] ... now he's free to go back to his trashed house ... and the Muslims are ticked because there are lots of Muslims in prison for alleged bomb plots who never got near any explosives ... and rocketry guys are ticked (ahem) ... and civil liberties guys and pro-2nd-amendment guys can't be too happy ... and for what?

It's not as if there's been a big national media splash and somebody's using the story to promote his agenda -- it's more like they're keeping a lid on the story. So who stands to gain here? Or is it all just one big mistake?

Here's my latest article BTW in case anyone is interested

http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2007/06/ronald-swerlein-fr...

comments? questions? complaints? please post 'em.

[Edited on 27-6-2007 by Winter]

Eclectic - 27-6-2007 at 07:51

FINALLY! Thank You WP! Now if someone would just turn their attentions to the behavior of the Longmont paper reporters and police departments who clearly were eager to advance their careers, and damn the expense and damage their efforts might cause. In my case, the accusation was "METH LAB", then when it became obvious there where no drugs to be found, EXPLOSIVES, as I too had a lab bottle of sodium azide, and various pesticides and gardening supplies, then DANGEROUS TOXIC CHEMICALS. Luckily for me, I'm a bit more articulate than Swerlein, and had an attorney with better connections to the local press, DA and public health department. Local hysteria dissipated within a week, and even Google references to EPA actions became mysteriously absent after a month or so.

Still, the cost to clean up and replace destroyed items has amounted to more than $10,000. :mad:



[Edited on 6-27-2007 by Eclectic]

Sauron - 27-6-2007 at 08:20

Well, @Eclectic, that explains why you are understandibly interested and sensitized.

HOWEVER, I doubt that you were setting off explosives at 0-dark-thirty on your front lawn or in your driveway and antagonizing your neighbors, were you?

Swerlein's case is a self inflicted wound.

Did the police over-react? Apparently.

Did the local media behave irresponsibly? Obviously?

Were the neighbors likely busybodies and snoops? Clearly.

But in the end Swerlein has who to blame?

HIMSELF. He needed a low profile. Not "clandestine" but non-obnoxious. Instead he was a loner who likes to make loud BOOMs at 3 a.m. NOT SMART!

Eclectic - 27-6-2007 at 08:27

There is that! But I'm not attempting to defend Swerlein. Just trying to inject some "Fair and Balanced".

I do think a large portion of the "blame" should rest on the press and law enforcement though. Think of a well trained pack of service dogs gone feral. Any time the government declares a "War" on something, what it REALLY means is "We can't be bothered with pesky checks and balances, or archaic notions like rule of law, innocent until proven guilty, Constitution, Bill of Rights, Magna Carta", etc.

And Now, For Something Completely Different:

"The Cyanide Came In The Mail"

(Mine arrived today. :D)


[Edited on 6-27-2007 by Eclectic]

Sauron - 27-6-2007 at 20:46

I daresay, that if the president of Dupont or of Hercules Powder, started setting off charges at 3 a.m. in HIS driveway, mayhaps the local constabulary might sit up and take notice.

It's just wildly inappropriate.

You are quite correct about the Dudley Do-rights and the crawling things of the media - no question.

But Swerlein effectively was wearing a sandwich board that read:

DON'T BOTHER ME, I'M AN ECCENTRIC EXPLOSIVES NUT AT WORK!

The lesson to be learned is: if you have a home lab, make friends with your neighbors, invite them over when you barbecue, make sure your wife has coffee with their wives, and goes to their Tupperwear parties. In short try to fit in. That way if they do see anything odd, the thought going through their heads will be "It's just good ole boy Fred across the street" and NOT "What's that weird-o over there up to? Must be no good! Dial 911."

That's proactive self defense against this sort of police and media bullshit.

Never ever do anything to actively antagonize the neighborhoos against you.

0-dark-thirty explosions
Horrible smeels (use an oversize fucking caustic scrubber just like industry does)
Wearing your lab coat in plain sight
Novelty latex catsuits and fetish heels (just kidding!)

Neighbors

MadHatter - 28-6-2007 at 05:59

I make a point of helping out my neighbors whenever possible. My next door neighbor
works for the landlord. Some people have accused this guy of dealing drugs but the reality
is he smokes weed on occasion. I cut his lawn when I cut mine and ditto for the neighbor
on the other side of me. Illegal fireworks and loud explosions, probably illegal salutes,
are used here often but nobody calls the police because most of us are into it ! :D
On the Fourth Of July, this is one of the most lit up areas in the neigborhood and the cops
never come.

Sauron, you're right. Get to know your neigbors. The neigbors won't call the police
if they know you're just having some fun and not disturbing their sleep. Two nights ago a
guy setoff some roman candles but this was at 9:00 PM, not 3:00 AM. No cops came.

Winter - 28-6-2007 at 06:48

Here's the latest out of Colorado:

*** QUOTE ***

Police confronted Ronald Swerlein about neighborhood complaints of loud noises coming from his house for the first time last year, seven months before he was arrested on suspicion of making explosives.

The Nov. 16 police visit to Swerlein's home preceded another call two weeks ago, which prompted detectives to raid his house June 15 and make an arrest.

Investigators credited neighborhood tips for leading them to Swerlein, 50, a retired electrical engineer.

And yesterday — during a second community meeting since police found a cache of chemicals, weapons and ammunition in Swerlein's home at 2404 Sunset Drive — officers encouraged the public to continue being their eyes and ears.

*** END Q ***

and there's more <a href="http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5606635,00.html">here</a>

[Edited on 28-6-2007 by Winter]

[Edited on 28-6-2007 by Winter]

Eclectic - 28-6-2007 at 06:54

They will NEVER admit that their response may have been disproportionate.



[Edited on 6-28-2007 by Eclectic]

Winter - 28-6-2007 at 07:06

"well we evacuated the neighborhood before we started firing tear gas into that couple's house"

"and we gave him a hospital gown to wear while we searched his shorts"

"and we trashed his chemistry set but we didn't burn down his house"

"and he's free on bail so what else do you want??"

Taaie-Neuskoek - 28-6-2007 at 12:57

Ok, right- the guy sounds a bit like a nutter, setting of explosives in such a way that there's scrapnel in the walls of your house doesn't sound good to be honest. IF you make HE's, you should not store them, or at least in a form where they can't do any serious harm (small portions, under water, in loose powder, etc).
Storing +200 ml of pure nitroglycerine is just plain wrong.

However, these links with terrorism are something I get increasingly tired off, a home chemist who bothers to collect +200 chemicals is very very most likely not to be a terrorist, even if he/she makes explosives them.

In all honesty do I not believe that this guy was a rocketeer, and that he did make HE's. However, I don't think he was a terrorist, and don't think he had any intentions either.

Sure, making explosives is against the law, and some experiments people do around here are illegal... However do I not think that making small-scale explosives (and hearing of the stories they were gram-scale explosions) is a real danger to society. Maybe he'll blow up his hands, maybe he'll set fire to his home- in no case someone else would get hurt. Making these kinds of things is in terms of risk assesment in the same ball park as cleaning something in-house with white spirit, and not something that 'deserves' this kind of media attention...
That is where I mostly get annoyed by, that people blow stories like this up cause it seems like someone was involved in an extremely dangerous activity, thereby damaging a hell of a lot people who do just innocent experiments.
I'd be pleased if there would appear some more articles about how scientists at home are working in relative safety, and are doing cool things there, trying to make obscure compounds for the sake of it... see Woelen's website for example.
Hope this made at least a little sense, I have a cold, am tired and am under influence of some booze...

Unless we forget

franklyn - 29-6-2007 at 10:21

This is the real , not imagined , threat
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19495826

Just today in my area a garage containing what is reported as " tons "
of chemicals ( such as potassium nitrate ) that " can be used to make
pyrotechnics " was seized and the surrounding suburban neighborhood
evacuated.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=54341...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/06/29/2007-06-29_cops_d...

Who knows , maybe the guy is afflicted with priapism and had on hand
a lifetime supply of saltpeter :P

This is quite a regular occurence everywhere and one only now hears of
the very local incident or else the very large one on national news reports.
Given the current climate of distrust one cannot be too careful.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/06/29/2007-06-29_britai...

I said it before , you must be sensible and responsible when transacting
with regulated materials.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=6726&a...

.

Pyridinium - 29-6-2007 at 11:16

Quote:
Originally posted by franklyn
Just today in my area a garage containing what is reported as " tons "
of chemicals ( such as potassium nitrate ) that " can be used to make
pyrotechnics " was seized and the surrounding suburban neighborhood
evacuated.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=54341...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/06/29/2007-06-29_cops_d...
.


Those are two of the most biased, ignorant "news" articles I have seen lately. We keep encountering this... when are people going to realize: stop calling potassium nitrate "explosive" or "potentially explosive". It just isn't. Even if we count what KNO3 "could" be used for in combination with other things and after a great deal of processing, I'm less than impressed.

Then there's the irrelevant comparison to 9/11, used inappropriately to whip up fear . I don't know about you, but I would have no problems living next to someone with 5000 lbs of KNO3 on their property.

"Scary" indeed. I'd be more worried about a person who carelessly stored oily rags.

The media try their hardest to make a spectacle of every chemistry-related story. They don't realize the irreversible damage they're doing... not just to amateur chemistry, but to the whole science in general.

The public already turn a jaundiced eye toward anything chemical, yet they keep demanding polymers, alloys, fuels, pharmaceuticals, etc., etc. They seem undaunted by the irony.

Winter - 29-6-2007 at 11:23

Quote:
Originally posted by Pyridinium

The public already turn a jaundiced eye toward anything chemical, yet they keep demanding polymers, alloys, fuels, pharmaceuticals, etc., etc. They seem undaunted by the irony.


and this is not the only irony that fails to daunt them :(

Eclectic - 29-6-2007 at 12:17

What's next? Are the police going to start seizing anything that COULD be used to commit rape? :mad:

Winter - 29-6-2007 at 12:45

Quote:
Originally posted by Eclectic
What's next? Are the police going to start seizing anything that COULD be used to commit rape? :mad:


that would be ironic indeed :o

Eclectic - 29-6-2007 at 12:51

There was NO CRIME, There was NO HAZARD! (other than that created by a profoundly ignorant police department, seizing and storing, or destroying, materials they are not familiar with.)

(I'm talking about the guy with the potassium nitrate, not Mr. Swerlein, although, in spite of the allegation that Mr. Swerlein had nitroglycerine, even in that case, there may be no crime and no PUBLIC hazard, other than that created by law enforcement)

[Edited on 6-29-2007 by Eclectic]

Nerro - 29-6-2007 at 13:55

Au contraire, there was a crime. You're not allowed by law to synthesise and own nitroglycerin without the proper permits. And for good reason, What if a jar with the stuff had fallen out of his hands? He would have to have been scraped off the wall by his next of kin and he might have hurt others. You jsut don't make explosives in a residential neighbourhood, personally I think a small amount (at most 25 mL) wouldn't be much of a threat but this guy made half a pound...

And azide can be farking deadly if it's mixed with an acid. It forms hydrazoic acid (HN<sub>3</sub>;) which is pretty nasty stuff!!

That being said, bleach can also release copious amounts of chlorine and when you pee on it you can feel the sting of the chloroamines which aren't exactly nice either. Rubbing alcohol can burn violently just like naphta and plain ol' gasoline. Ammonia is another not-so-nice kind of vapour to inhale, and yet, we use it to clean, just like the alcohol, the naphta and the bleach. Let's just be grown-ups and not be scared of every little thing. Is it in vogue in the States to act like a retard about dangerous things? Coffee cups must state that they contain hot contents... I SHOULD HOPE SO!

Concerning his stash of chemicals, there are a lot of amateur chemists (or students) who can't control themselves when they have the chance to buy a reagent. I've bought half a kilo of sodium thiosulphate once only to discover is basically a useless chem if you're not into photography :P The point I'm trying to make is that he might well have a similar interest in chemicals without any deeper meanings. Maybe he wanted to add the NaN<sub>3</sub> to black powder to increase the volume of expelled gas in his propellants, who knows?! Let's just leave amateurs be a little. So long as he stops being an asshole and waking people up at night he should just go ahead.

Pyridinium - 29-6-2007 at 14:05

For visitors from outside sciencemadness, here's a quick recap: Potassium nitrate is not an explosive.

You know, in this age of the internet, they could have checked on the accuracy of their statements. It would have taken all of about 30 seconds. I'd have to say that's a worthwhile effort when their article is going to be read by thousands or millions.

Their continuing to use innacuracies and loaded phrases to promote sensationalism and fear-mongering leads us toward one of perhaps two or three possible conclusions, none of which is encouraging.

EDIT: I know we're jumping back and forth somewhat now between the Swerlein case and this new Serrano case, but I think we all see the commonalities.

I did find the CNN article (re: Serrano) to be a bit less biased than the other ones:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/29/chemicals.found/index.html

[Edited on 29-6-2007 by Pyridinium]

Eclectic - 29-6-2007 at 14:18

Nerro, what law is that? Can you quote it or give a hyperlink to the full text, with annotations and relevant case law?

S.C. Wack - 29-6-2007 at 14:25

It's not the journalists, except for their vested interest in sensationalism and lack of time, resources, or desire for fact-finding - it's the police. It is not that the police are ignorant, either. They have a vested interest in fear. It is not an accident that they overrespond to and overplay these things.

There was a recent incident here in town where large amounts of chemicals, fireworks, automatic weapons, "silencers", etc. were found. You can imagine what that stirred up...the police making them look as evil as possible, the sheeple believing whatever they are told to believe and calling for their heads...yet the homeowners were only charged with possession of a destructive device. There is no accountability, never will be.

Nerro - 29-6-2007 at 15:13

If there is no law against making sizable amounts of high-explosive in your house but there is a law that states that you can't wear your boots to bed (in Oklahoma) then your country needs to do some serious thinking!

[Edited on 30-6-2007 by Nerro]

Eclectic - 29-6-2007 at 15:49

Here, Here! For more folks in the USA doing some serious thinking!

[Edited on 6-29-2007 by Eclectic]

Sauron - 29-6-2007 at 16:30

"Destructive device" is a catch-all term under the Gun Control Act of 1968 that amended the National Firearms Act of 1934. Destructive device means lots of things.

Rifled firearms larger than caliber .50 - this includes antitank rifles like .55 Boys, 20mm Lahti, 14.5mm PTRD and PTRS, 20mm Solothurn etc. that prior to 1968 were not regulated.

Mortars
Mines
Grenades (HE, WP but not pyrotechnics like smoke HC)
Improvised explosive devices
Incendiary devices, including improvised.

And so on. It is rather vague and I have seen some highly IMO abusive prosecutions under this act and parallel state laws. Furthermore there is a gray area concerning dummy (inert) devices (for training or display) as there have been many instances of people reporting to police that someone has "grenades" that turn out to be harmless paperweights but his house gets trashed and he gets hauled in anyway while the boffins sort things out.

I once was raided at midnight by two ATF agents with Alexandria VA PD backup because a janitor saw what appeared to be a pair of live extended-range 81mm HE and WP mortar bombs in my apartment/office. These had in fact been imported for display at the annual Association of the US Army convention by their manufacturer whose US agent I was. They were totally inert but painted like the live shells, with inert but realistic propellant increments, no charge, no primer, nothing in the detonator cap, etc. The agents wanted to take them anyway, I argued against that because they were my client's property and lawfully imported. I had to repeat that a few times before it sank in. "These were imported on a Form 6?" they asked. I said yes. So off we went to my other office across town (Arlington) and I found the Form 6 copy from ATF's own Imports Branch. I was of course a licensed NFA Class 2 manufacturer and also licensed as manufacturer and exporter of munitions by State Dept.

Finally satisfied, the ATF took me back to my place, dropped me off, and left empty handed.

But that could easily have been a SWAT door kicking exercise with the entire building evacuated, news media on scene and me hauled away in handcuffs, all for no proper reason. If it had been 2007 instead of 1985 maybe that's how it would have played out.

I could tell you lots of second hand tales of woe like this but THIS one happened to ME. It is not second hand.

Winter - 29-6-2007 at 17:06

Speaking of "destructive devices", Derrick Shareef was arrested last December near Chicago and accused of plotting to detonate four grenades in garbage cans in a shopping mall. He was charged under a law that covers conspiracy to obtain and/or use "weapons of mass destruction". The charge sounded ridiculous at first, but when you read the law, it explicitly classifies all sorts of things under the title "weapons of mass destruction", and grenades clearly fall into that category.

I'm not sure how much this adds to the discussion but here's a link to a post that has a lot of other links, in case anyone is interested ...

http://winterpatriot.blogspot.com/2006/12/derrick-shareefs-b...

Sauron - 1-7-2007 at 09:31

WMD meand only chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

Properly used it means military weaponized NBC weapons.

Bear in mind that up till now the sole use of a chemical weapon by a subnational actor was the Tokyo subway attack using Sarin and clearly this was not properly weaponized as it only killed a very small number of people, although sarin certainly is a military grade CW.

Furthermore I do not regard this to have been a terrorist use of a CW as the Aum Shin Rikkyo were religious nutters rather than terrorists per se. I regard their act as criminal mass murder rather than terrorism. Terror is a crime of intent, and the Aum were actually trying to confuse the authorities regarding earlier incidents that are rarely publicized in the Western media.

Anyway whatever law you are talking about sounds like an Illinois state law, rather than a federal law. Please clarify, cite the actual state please.

HE hand grenades are certainly NOT WMDs. Just because some ill advised state legislators deem them so does not make them so in fact.

Winter - 1-7-2007 at 09:50

It is in fact a federal law we're talking about; Shareef was charged under a federal law that makes it a crime to do anything that could interfere with interstate commerce -- and he was supposedly getting ready to attack a mall so there's your interstate commerce. At least half of those stores -- probably more -- have customers and/or vendors outside Illinois. So it's a federal case and in fact Patrick Fitzgerald is the prosecutor.

And here are the laws in question and some excerpts from them as detailed in the post I linked to above

=====================

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_0...

Weapon Of Mass Destruction

(2) the term “weapon of mass destruction” means—

(A) any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this title [see below];
(B) any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors;
(C) any weapon involving a biological agent, toxin, or vector (as those terms are defined in section 178 of this title); or
(D) any weapon that is designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life; and

=====================

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_0...

Section 921

Destructive Device

(4) The term “destructive device” means—

(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;

=====================

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_0...

Use of weapons of mass destruction

(a) A person who, without lawful authority, uses, threatens, or attempts or conspires to use, a weapon of mass destruction —-
(1) [...]
(2) against any person or property within the United States, and
(A) [...]
(B) such property is used in interstate or foreign commerce or in an activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce;
(C) [...]
(D) the offense, or the results of the offense, affect interstate or foreign commerce, or, in the case of a threat, attempt, or conspiracy, would have affected interstate or foreign commerce;

=====================

it's open and shut -- as far as I can see he has no wiggle room at all

=====================

more to the point, YES! I was surprised to see this law too, but that's what it says!