Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Sodium metal from sodium peroxide?

Hunterman2244 - 24-7-2018 at 11:19

Could sodium peroxide be reduced to elemental sodium? I was thinking carbon, but wouldn't it form sodium carbonate?

[Edited on 24-7-2018 by Hunterman2244]

Boffis - 24-7-2018 at 22:24

No, not by any sensible route, its a powerful oxidizing agent and reacts with carbon with near explosive violence. Sodium peroxide would be a worse starting material than sodium hydroxide, its harder to get, more expensive and useful for many other reactions. molten it will oxidize bismuth compound to Bi5+, chromium oxide to chromate etc.

VSEPR_VOID - 25-7-2018 at 08:19

I wonder if you could reflux it with magnesium or activated charcoal in mineral oil. You might need a tertiary alcohol to catalyze it. Do you have any sodium peroxide

Tsjerk - 25-7-2018 at 10:19

VSEPR _Void, that would quite probably explode. Have you ever tried to, for example, reflux KClO3 with magnesium?

Edit; and the explosion wouldn't give any sodium metal, you most likely get sodium oxide and magnesium oxide/carbon monoxide /carbon dioxide

[Edited on 25-7-2018 by Tsjerk]

walruslover69 - 25-7-2018 at 12:31

I am totally lost on how sodium peroxide could ever be used to make sodium.

if any sodium was ever generated it would be oxidized by Na2O2 to Na2O. You could think of a round about way to get sodium metal form it but you be going through a Na2O intermediate. Na2O is a much cheaper reagent anyways. Infact Na2O would be a much better starting material than NaOH. You could preform a thermite reaction with magnesium to obtain sodium. Na2O has the advantage of not releasing any gas during its reaction with magnesium so it could be done in a closed vessel and i imagine you could obtain almost quantitative yield. It would be far superior to using NaOH as I believe Nurdrage and a few others did.

[Edited on 26-7-2018 by walruslover69]

unionised - 25-7-2018 at 12:34

You could sell sodium peroxide and buy sodium with the money.

John paul III - 25-7-2018 at 13:40

What about disproportionation of sodium oxide? Na2O - > Na2O2 + Na. With potassium in analogous reaction you can distill of K metal under vacuum. http://www.allreactions.com/index.php/group-1a/natrium/sodiu...

walruslover69 - 25-7-2018 at 16:17

I don't believe that that reaction exists. I am almost certain sodium peroxide decomposes at 700C to Na2O and O2.

MultiplePersonality - 25-7-2018 at 16:54

You can use sodium peroxide or oxide or carbonate or hydroxide or bicarbonate, with carbon. [1]

Thermal reduction processes are not being practiced anywhere in the world at present for large-scale production of sodium.
Such methods, however, can be conveniently adapted for laboratory preparation of metallic sodium.
Sodium can be prepared by thermal reduction of its hydroxide, carbonate, or chloride at elevated temperatures.
These salts are heated with carbon, calcium carbide, iron carbide, ferrosilicon, or other reducing agents at temperatures above 800°C under vacuum:

6 NaOH + 2 C → 2 Na + 2 Na2CO3 + 3 H2
Na2CO3 + 2 C → 2 Na + 3 CO
2 NaCl + CaC2 → 2Na + CaCl2 + 2 C

John paul III - 26-7-2018 at 02:45

Quote: Originally posted by walruslover69  
I don't believe that that reaction exists. I am almost certain sodium peroxide decomposes at 700C to Na2O and O2.

As you can read on the page, the temperature limit stated for the reaction is well below 700°C

walruslover69 - 26-7-2018 at 05:03

Quote: Originally posted by John paul III  

As you can read on the page, the temperature limit stated for the reaction is well below 700°C


It states on the page that (t>700°C)

Na2O2 is a very strong oxidizer, there is no way it wouldn't violently react with sodium. I also couldn't find anything on that reaction when I looked.

MultiplePersonality - 26-7-2018 at 05:24

Of course peroxides will decompose to oxides at high temperatures. Just compare that with BaO2, as there is much information on it, because H2O2 was historically produced that way. Oxides will only absorb O2 at lower temperatures to form peroxides, but peroxides will decompose at higher temperatures to form oxides. It is dangerous and stupid to even try to make Na from Na2O2. Na is itself already so unstable and dangerous, not to mention creating it from something bad like Na2O2. Use more stable compounds instead like carbonate or hydroxide. You can't make Na just by heating Na2O2.

John paul III - 26-7-2018 at 08:56

Quote: Originally posted by walruslover69  
Quote: Originally posted by John paul III  

As you can read on the page, the temperature limit stated for the reaction is well below 700°C


It states on the page that (t>700°C)

Na2O2 is a very strong oxidizer, there is no way it wouldn't violently react with sodium. I also couldn't find anything on that reaction when I looked.
My bad, I confused it + yeah, the site should list its' sources. I'll try contacting the admin/mod

[Edited on 26-7-2018 by John paul III]

John paul III - 26-7-2018 at 09:17

By the way analogous reactions for potassium are so that the peroxide decomposes at higher temp than K2O disproportionates so that it would be possible to turn peroxide into potassium metal

MultiplePersonality - 26-7-2018 at 10:25

Huh, my bad. You're right. Then it is sure what can be distilled is pure potassium. Just we would need some inert gas to push oxygen away, while K is hot, so reverse reactions don't occur during cooling. Only K will distill, while K2O, KO2, and K2O2 can't.

Abromination - 28-7-2018 at 15:04

NurdRage is experimenting with something similar. He is using baby oil as a solvent, I believe (may be wrong) and reducing sodium hydroxide with magnesium metal to recieve elemental sodium. I may have described the process wrong, I'd have to watch his video again.

Hunterman2244 - 29-7-2018 at 11:39

Quote: Originally posted by Abromination  
NurdRage is experimenting with something similar. He is using baby oil as a solvent, I believe (may be wrong) and reducing sodium hydroxide with magnesium metal to recieve elemental sodium. I may have described the process wrong, I'd have to watch his video again.
Yeah, I've seen it, just waiting for a catalyst that is within reach.