Sciencemadness Discussion Board - How's $24 per liter for 70% nitric acid?

How's $24 per liter for 70% nitric acid?

alancj - 17-5-2007 at 22:36

Hi all,
I got a quote from the same supplier mentioned in the "sodium silicate solution" thread. He quoted me 24 bucks per liter of nitric acid and 50 per Kg of lead nitrate. The nitric is 70% and the lead nitrate is... I have no Idea the purity of either, I’ll ask. There is a $32 hazmat fee... I sent him an email asking how many bottles he can send on one hazmat fee and if that also applies to the lead nitrate. He is going to get back to me on that. What is significant here is that this company sells to INDIVIDUALS!

So, if you’re in the US (maybe only continental) then this may be a supplier for those and other chemicals that nobody else wants to sell you. As long as you don’t buy a train load of fuming nitric (I don’t know if they carry it, I’d be too afraid to ask.) along with hexamine, or other suspicious items, then I doubt you have anything to worry about. (just don’t blame me if you get your door kicked down!)

Anyway, what do you all think?

-Alan

edit: He said both chemicals are "Reagent" grade. Here is a link to their site. Antec, Inc.

[Edited on 18-5-2007 by alancj]

[Edited on 18-5-2007 by alancj]

UnintentionalChaos - 17-5-2007 at 23:25

Generally, buying more doesn't increase the hazmat fee until you get to very large volumes. I wouldn't be suprized if you can get a dozen liters for the same hazmat fee. Why lead nitrate? It would probably be much cheaper to buy pure lead ($2.20lb or something)and make it yourself from the nitric acid, especially if it requires a hazmat fee (which I imagine it does). Where is this by the way?

BCPneumatics - 18-5-2007 at 06:06

Hmm, let us know how this goes, sounds like a good supplier.
Last time I bought 'pure' lead around here, it was $0.43/lb. Copper is somewhere around $1.70, so $2.20 seems very high, unless you are talking about a chemical suppler, in which case it is probably of higher quality. (Purity)

alancj - 18-5-2007 at 15:24

Quote:

Originally posted by UnintentionalChaos
Generally, buying more doesn't increase the hazmat fee until you get to very large volumes. I wouldn't be suprized if you can get a dozen liters for the same hazmat fee. Why lead nitrate? It would probably be much cheaper to buy pure lead ($2.20lb or something)and make it yourself from the nitric acid, especially if it requires a hazmat fee (which I imagine it does). Where is this by the way?

I asked about the lead nitrate since that is what I need the nitric acid for, mostly. If there was no hazmat fee for it and was cheap I would just buy it instead of going to the trouble of making it. It sounds like it may need a hazmat... anyway, so you're right; buying acid and doing it yourself would be cheaper.

So I may just buy nitric acid then. Instead of dissolving lead metal like you say, I would rather use lead oxide. This company seems to have quite a bit for fire analysis, it is C.P. and cheap if you need a lot. Plus you don't waste acid on it.

He hasn't gotten back to me about the hazmat fee's yet. I edited my OP with a link to the company website...

-Alan

evil_lurker - 18-5-2007 at 16:24

In the USA, AFAIK, all nitric acid, regardless of concentration is hazmat material with no ORM exception.

undead_alchemist - 19-5-2007 at 06:40

$24 for 1L is a bit high, as I have seen 2.5L of ACS Nitric (68-70%) for $40. a bit of a better deal...

The_Davster - 19-5-2007 at 11:28

If I was in need of it, I would proably take it at that price. I have paid varying ammounts in the past for nitric
40$ for 500mL
40$ for 1L
8$ for 2.5L
(Yes, I know I was ripped off for the first two, that was a long long time ago though)

G.i.B. - 19-5-2007 at 12:52

In gemany I pay 10.50 euro for 1l (65% technical grade), 26 euro (65% zur analyse) and 76 euro (99.5% zur analyse). From that perspective, the price seems fine !! (euro-dollar is what, 1-1.30 ?)

alancj - 19-5-2007 at 14:35

He Still hasn't gotten back to me on the amnt. of acid I can ship on one $32 hazmat fee. I probably can get more than I can afford on one hazmat, though

$24 isn't bad I would think, but it's pretty expensive once you ship it... unless you buy a dozen liters to amortize the cost. I don't know, I think I might just buy a bigger retort off eBay and make an electric heating mantle for it. I can get nitrates and sulfuric acid pretty cheap so that would cost less per liter once I make a few liters of it.

Currently, I've been making an impure, dilute nitric acid (30-40% ?), by reacting stoichiometric quantities of calcium nitrate and drain-cleaner-grade sulfuric acid. Cold quantities are mixed and you get a warm thin paste. Using suction filtering (using normal filter paper) I separate the volumes of calcium sulfate and get a kinda yellow acid. There is some ammonium sulfate (some fertilizer grades have ammonium nitrate in it) left in solution and some calcium sulfate also dissolves, and possibly sulfuric acid or calcium nitrate left over. So whatever I make with it needs to be purified some other way. It all gets to be a lot of work.

If only they sold nitric acid in the grocery store!

-Alan

evil_lurker - 19-5-2007 at 22:32

Generally, the hazmat fee is assessed per package, with normally 4 bottles of the same size being the limit in each package.

It is possible that chemicals of the same hazard and packaging group can be shipped in the same box. For example, nitric could go with sulfuric, phosphoric, acetic, etc.

Basically, whenever I order chemicals, I like to work with them as much as possible on the shipping.

abc - 22-5-2007 at 01:58

Quote:

Originally posted by G.i.B.
In gemany I pay 10.50 euro for 1l (65% technical grade), 26 euro (65% zur analyse) and 76 euro (99.5% zur analyse). From that perspective, the price seems fine !! (euro-dollar is what, 1-1.30 ?)

GIB could you tell me (or U2U) which company in Germany sells nitric for that price?

G.i.B. - 22-5-2007 at 10:49

Sorry, with the just one post here, you do not get that info from me. Have you even looked for chem suppliers in gemany ? They are easy to find.

abc - 22-5-2007 at 11:23

Quote:

Originally posted by G.i.B.
Sorry, with the just one post here, you do not get that info from me. Have you even looked for chem suppliers in gemany ? They are easy to find.

I guess with just 11 posts you are telling us how you think people like you should be treated

G.i.B. - 22-5-2007 at 11:28

Absolutely. But I am not asking for suppliers am I ?

I have been active on a dutch chemistry forum (257 posts), so I somewhat know how this works. You have to put in some time on a forum before you can ask a question like this.

[Edited on 22-5-2007 by G.i.B.]

abc - 22-5-2007 at 11:46

Quote:

Originally posted by G.i.B.
Absolutely. But I am not asking for suppliers am I ?

I have been active on a dutch chemistry forum (257 posts), so I somewhat know how this works. You have to put in some time on a forum before you can ask a question like this.

[Edited on 22-5-2007 by G.i.B.]

I do not agree that with that. If you want to live that way good, enjoy bad treatment. Because thats all it is. The info can be found in 5 minutes (their HNO3 is much cheaper than $24/l). http://www.fiebig-lehrmittel.de/index.php?showcategoryid=49&...

G.i.B. - 22-5-2007 at 11:53

Nothing to do with bad treatment, everything to do with protecting supply lines.

Organikum - 22-5-2007 at 13:52

Here where I live thats outrageous expensive,

alancj - 22-5-2007 at 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Organikum
Here where I live thats outrageous expensive,

You mean the $24/L that I mentioned or the supplier abc gave a link for? Where you live are companies deathly afraid of selling scientific supplies to individuals? I think that fact inflates the price for hobbyists.

[Edited on 22-5-2007 by alancj]

abc - 22-5-2007 at 20:34

Can someone help me with a supplier of potassium iodide (Kaliujodid) in Germany thanks

oxybate - 26-5-2007 at 17:19

I'm almost *certain* I remember reading that Antec had been involved in some Fed operation. Someone do a search in the newsgroups or something. Though I never read the Hive much at all, maybe that's where I learned of this? I heard there may be archives of the Hive available. Someone should check those too.

oxybate - 26-5-2007 at 17:44

Here:

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=3105&p...

There's definitely something up with that place. Stay away.

alancj - 26-5-2007 at 23:31

Quote:

Originally posted by oxybate
Here:

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=3105&p...

There's definitely something up with that place. Stay away.

Maybe I'm too trusting or naive, but I didn't see anything very convincing from those links. It all seems to have sprouted from some guys post on alt.drugs; "Customers of Antec Chemical should bee aware that the FBI is
investigating that company."

If that was true then, and still is, then what would be the effect of doing business with them? If a person bought a few liters of 70% Nitric acid (a perfectly legal, common chemical) from them, should I expect the FBI to start a file on me? Should I assume they'll start to track down where I live, find all my posts on different forums, dig up every email I’ve ever sent that is stored some NSA server... find out what I have bought online and try and figure out a way to put me jail for doing nothing? How about for just asking about it by email like I did? Honestly, I would hope the "feds" would have bigger fish to fry.

If, on the other hand, I bought 20 lbs of iodine crystals, RP, and large amounts of other obvious drug precursors, then I would expect to have my door kicked down (and it should be!)

I really would like to see some real good information on just how big "big brother" really is. Reading all the speculation and rumors and such on the internet is enough to make me paranoid, but not convinced.

-Alan

oxybate - 29-5-2007 at 16:38

Alan,

I'm surprised you don't see anything "convincing" from those links: (1) A website my kid brother could outdo, (2) a self-described speciality regarding "lithium compounds" labelled on the home page, and (3) about every watched chemical known doesn't do it for you? I'm not sure what leads you to think that the war on drugs is an overblown scare tactic, but from my experiences, the only thing overblown is the level to which LE will go if they decide to go after you. On some level, you are right- there isn't much consistency or pervasive control that appears to be going on, but *if* you are targeted, the amount of effort that goes into f*cking your life up is truly impressive indeed.

Perhaps, you'd like to play the numbers - in fact, I think we all do. That given, you really want to try your luck at a place that specializes in "lithium" compounds in this meth-lab crazy society?

Big brother may not be as big as they say, but its as virulent, malicious and dastardly - that's for sure.

The_Davster - 29-5-2007 at 17:33

Well they also sell many other chemicals, without nefarious purposes. Also, I do not think a company needs a fancy webpage to be legit. Some people care more about substance than flash. I ordered from one such company at one point. Then the RCMP raids them 1(2?) years ago. I am still free. Kinda nervous though, despite only purchasing simple, innocous compounds, can never trust the igorance of those who don't know chemistry.

But what do I know, until this thread I only knew of one drug that used lithium, the stuff for bipolar disorder.

Still not a site I would likely order from.

[Edited on 29-5-2007 by The_Davster]

alancj - 29-5-2007 at 17:59

Quote:

Originally posted by oxybate
Alan,

I'm surprised you don't see anything "convincing" from those links: (1) A website my kid brother could outdo, (2) a self-described speciality regarding "lithium compounds" labelled on the home page, and (3) about every watched chemical known doesn't do it for you?

(1) Just because the site is simple means little to me. Am I to assume that LE are not able to do good web-programming?
(2) Are lithium compounds useful for drugs or something????
(3) So? There are a lot of watched chemicals... and any good chemical supplier would carry them along with everything else you'd expect.

Now, how the HELL to you find the fact that some random person posted ONE SENTENCE on usenet,

Quote:

"Customers of Antec Chemical should bee aware that the FBI is
investigating that company."

to be convincing empirical evidence that PROVES the website is just a LE setup like you seem to think? Some more people talking about it a couple years latter, with nothing to back it up doesn't convince me to the least.

Quote:

There's definitely something up with that place. Stay away.

Really? Definitely? How do you base that conclusion on the rumor spreading in those links?

Maybe you are right… maybe not. But, again, I don’t have any reason to conclude that they are a complete setup based on what you’ve shown me.

-Alan

Pyridinium - 29-5-2007 at 18:03

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Davster
But what do I know, until this thread I only knew of one drug that used lithium, the stuff for bipolar disorder.

Still not a site I would likely order from.

[Edited on 29-5-2007 by The_Davster]

I must be naive, but I never thought of lithium compounds as being associated with drug manufacture, either. I guess I'm missing something. Then again I don't know anything about making drugs.

I've ordered from companies that may have been sugar traps to catch meth cooks.

I am not doing anything wrong, so I should have nothing to fear.

I guess we'll see how that pans out.

I don't want to think LE would have any interest in destroying innocent people. The way some folks talk, it sounds as though you might as well be dead once they start scrutinizing you. According to this viewpoint, guilt is a foregone conclusion.

Is this really how it works? I know it happens sometimes, but is it the norm, or is it a rarity?

It really upsets me to think that I should be in jeopardy when I've done nothing wrong. Am I to understand that it's only a matter of time before I go to prison because I'm doing science?

The horror of such a world would be overwhelming, to the point that it would make little sense to get out of bed each morning.

pantone159 - 30-5-2007 at 03:27

I don't understand what is so special about Li compounds, either. I know Li *metal* is used in meth-synthesis, but that's not really a 'compound'. LAH could surely be used, but my guess is that this is rarely used in illicit drug synthesis due to its hazards and the availability of other usable reducing agents. Besides that, I draw a blank.

The lack of a fancy webpage doesn't mean anything to me, either.

joeflsts - 30-5-2007 at 10:19

Antec has had issues in the past that have nothing to do with making drugs - I suggest that people willing to push a myth stop being lazy and do some research. The data is there if you look for it.

One common theme that I have found with drug cooks on internet forums they are scared to death of buying chemicals. Most of them have no issue with allowing kids to kill themselves using their products however.

Joe

Pyridinium - 30-5-2007 at 12:02

Quote:

Originally posted by joeflsts
Antec has had issues in the past that have nothing to do with making drugs - I suggest that people willing to push a myth stop being lazy and do some research. The data is there if you look for it.

One common theme that I have found with drug cooks on internet forums they are scared to death of buying chemicals. Most of them have no issue with allowing kids to kill themselves using their products however.

Joe

Maybe drug cooks should be afraid to buy chemicals.

The rest of us shouldn't.

I'm not pushing any myth. It would be naive to claim that the drug war (and friends) haven't made it dangerous even for legitimate chemists to acquire reagents. That theme keeps coming up again and again on discussion boards.

There's always that "what if"... what if they just go ahead and decide you're a drug cook without actually checking it out? Small possibility, but it does happen. Let's say 98% of the LE who work those things are competent, restrained people who have an interest in justice. There's that 2% who will just come in and smash up your lab, you, and your life, then find out later that you weren't a drug cook. When the smoke clears, you won't even get a "sorry".

This happened to Ariel Alonso and Jonathan Conrad. Alonso, an elderly gentleman, died shortly afterward. He was quoted as saying he was ready to die now, there was nothing left in his life after this. Shortly after that, he did die.

Then there's that well-known author of a couple books on dismantling clandestine labs. If I understand correctly, his books state that there's "no legitimate home or hobby use" for things like glacial acetic acid. (I guess amateur photographers don't exist).

With that kind of sentiment styling itself as authoritative fact, you should be at least dimly aware that something isn't right.

After all, notions like that one have the power to mobilize unchecked force in your personal direction.

Compounding the problem is that there are some drug cooks on these forums. Maybe more than a few; I don't know how many just lurk. I don't necessarily like it, but the whole free speech / freedom of expression thing is a separate debate.

I was finally able to find a news article about Antec that hadn't expired. I now see what happened with that.

joeflsts - 30-5-2007 at 13:03

I'm not knocking you. My point is that there is a common reflex by many to claim so and so is a DEA run site when they don't bother to check the facts.

Again, this wasn't directed at you.

Joe

alancj - 30-5-2007 at 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyridinium
Then there's that well-known author of a couple books on dismantling clandestine labs. If I understand correctly, his books state that there's "no legitimate home or hobby use" for things like glacial acetic acid. (I guess amateur photographers don't exist).

No legitimate use my ass! I have wanted the stuff for making lead acetate. And I have a home lab, and it's legitimate. You (the author) have now been disproved.

-Alan

[Edited on 30-5-2007 by alancj]

Pyridinium - 30-5-2007 at 13:43

Quote:

Originally posted by joeflsts
I'm not knocking you. My point is that there is a common reflex by many to claim so and so is a DEA run site when they don't bother to check the facts.

You're right about that. I do admit, I get a little touchy about the subject when maybe I shouldn't.

Back on thread topic: $24 / liter of conc. nitric seems to me a decent price, if it's a good purity grade. For precious metal recovery, which I'm experimenting with at the moment, that makes it economically viable. I figure 1L of HNO3 as 15.8 moles of nitrate ion that can react with silver.

Even assuming it could dissolve only 10 moles of Ag (e.g., due to losses by decomposition to NOx), that's 1.08 kg of silver, roughly 37 ounces. Adding $24 (+haz shipping) to the cost of 37 ounces of silver seems reasonable, if the scrap can be obtained cheaply enough. That's an optimized calculation that neglects all the copper and other metals that will also be using up some acid. I also haven't sat down and figured out exactly how much HNO3 will decompose during dissolving of metals.

If total HNO3 cost w/ shipping came out to, say, $40, that is only about 10% of the current bullion value of the Ag that could theoretically be dissolved in it.

Now, when the acid starts being $40, $50, $60+ a liter (not incl. shipping) it doesn't sound as good to me.

5 L seems a good starting point for some small scale metal refining work.

As long as someone doesn't level the accusation of 'b0mz0rs'.

Pyridinium - 30-5-2007 at 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by alancj

Quote:

No legitimate use my ass! I have wanted the stuff for making lead acetate. And I have a home lab, and it's legitimate. You have now been disproved.

-Alan

Alan, I take it that you mean the author of that book when you use the pronoun "You" in the context of "disproved".

For clarity, I used that example to show a dangerous and wrong idea that was originated by someone else, someone who should know better.

EDIT: sorry for the double post, but this was a break in subject from my last one.

I think we all know on here that it is perfectly legitimate to have and use glacial acetic acid, nitric acid, sulfuric acid, etc. The challenge we face is getting people like the author of that book to change their opinions.

[Edited on 30-5-2007 by Pyridinium]

woelen - 30-5-2007 at 14:18

Quote:

Originally posted by abc

Quote:

Originally posted by G.i.B.
Sorry, with the just one post here, you do not get that info from me. Have you even looked for chem suppliers in gemany ? They are easy to find.

I guess with just 11 posts you are telling us how you think people like you should be treated

I actually do agree with G.i.B.

In the current social climate, we need to buildup trust in each other and need to have an impression of how someone is.

There simply are too many meth-cooks out there (and please, abc, understand me well, I do not say you are a meth-cook, you simply are unknown to me) and giving a totally unknown person sources for chemicals is not the wisest thing to do. If someone has a proven record on a forum, and has shown to be a real hobbyist with decent knowledge and responsibility, then I certainly am inclined to give such a person addresses where to obtain chemicals (and actually, I have given information to quite a few persons from here). So, abc may receive information from me in the future, if he has proven trustworthy. But for now, it is time to wait and see...

Yes, the hobby of home chemistry is one of patience. For me it has taken many years before I had built up what I have, and before I knew the suppliers I know right now. Also, finding materials is not always going along official suppliers, exchanging chemicals, chems being offered by people you know from forums, etc. also is part of the game. Also here, patience is your friend.

[Edited on 30-5-07 by woelen]

alancj - 30-5-2007 at 15:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyridinium
Alan, I take it that you mean the author of that book when you use the pronoun "You" in the context of "disproved".
[Edited on 30-5-2007 by Pyridinium]

That would be correct. Sorry for any confusion.

Back to nitric acid….
evil_lurker mentioned this site (High Vally Chemical) as a place to get glacial acetic acid in another thread; here I'm linking to 2.5L nitric acid product detail page. They have it in for $18.75 per liter, and about $13 per liter in larger amounts (up to 15 liters!). The hazard fee is 25. They seem to sell to individuals and have online ordering. This is a US company, and a lot of chemicals/lab supplies.

-Alan

[Edited on 30-5-2007 by alancj]

BeanyBoy - 31-5-2007 at 12:29

Quote:

Originally posted by oxybate
I'm almost *certain* I remember reading that Antec had been involved in some Fed operation. Someone do a search in the newsgroups or something. Though I never read the Hive much at all, maybe that's where I learned of this? I heard there may be archives of the Hive available. Someone should check those too.

Some of their customers got in trouble with the law and were found to have purchased from them. Another customer did a really bad thing with what he purchased. Additionally, state environmental officials charged the firm with violations of state environmental regulations, and federal officials charged them with violating the Clean Water Act. Of course both circumstances would result in the company being scrutinized. Their prices *appear* to have gone up as a result of both legal fees and fines, but I can't vouch for that, my first visit there and subsequent purchases came after that (relatively recently).

[Edited on 31-5-2007 by BeanyBoy]

[Edited on 31-5-2007 by BeanyBoy]

[Edited on 31-5-2007 by BeanyBoy]

benzylchloride1 - 7-6-2007 at 08:42

If you have a close friend or relative that is a science teacher try Flinn Scientific for most of your chemicals. They will only ship to educational facilities. I bought Nitric Acid for around 30$ for 2.5 L.
They sell most chemicalsthat are needed for scientific experiments