Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Newbs Learning chemistry

Newbs Learning chemistry

NEMO-Chemistry - 24-1-2018 at 15:03

Ok I know this was done before, actually it started really well. From a Noob Newb perspective at the time, I found the following....

Loads of people on here were really up for teaching, alot of good people came up with questions and helped out.
For me at least, it got past noob level very very quickly. It was almost like it became a question contest, lets see who could devise the most clever question.

I still learnt alot, but the pace the question difficulty increased, was above what I could manage. I was at school learning chemistry, but I felt I didnt have a chance for things to set in my head, before I had fully got the last concept, we were off on a different path.

Anyway my point/question is...

Would anyone be interested in setting questions? I am kind of thinking of doing something slightly more formal, I dont mind setting up that side and I am willing to do what I can.

If it was structured and set up, then maybe after a topic was covered, and questions set. The experiment could be done and posted on here, that would be where the marks were mainly.

But first I guess it needs the clever people to be willing to set questions. I know it took alot of time up, but if we add in practical stuff to back it up with, that should slow it down a bit.

Sorry if this sounds crap, but I thought it worth asking. Another reason for asking, i am learning to use moodle. I thought it might be an ideal way to put it into practice.

Also is a good way to help stop cheating

ninhydric1 - 24-1-2018 at 15:11

That's an interesting idea. Blogfast's educational threads could be a basis for this type of teaching. I could help with basics such as OChem, but I'm pretty sure there are more qualified people to do this.

aga - 24-1-2018 at 15:17

The only qualification for this kind of thing is setting Questions after Teaching something.

Pick a reaction, write it up, Teach.

I'd love to see some of that, and would certainly Learn.

Edit:

You don't have to be the Best to teach what you know.

Bloggers is a very hard act to to follow, yet his Spirit of Teaching is evident in the effort he put into all those very very long threads which inform and teach to this day.

If he ever returns, he'd be pleased (i think) to see others teaching too.

[Edited on 24-1-2018 by aga]

NEMO-Chemistry - 24-1-2018 at 18:45

Yeah all it needs is some questions, and some participation. I dont mind setting something up, I cant ask questions but I can do stuff. Adding a practical side to it, should be fun to read on here as well.

No coffee question please, still haunting me.

NEMO-Chemistry - 25-1-2018 at 05:14

Ok I have been thinking this through, later today I should have something in the works. Obviously I will post the details and if any the admins etc have a problem with it, I will try and sort it out. What I have in mind should help SM and the teaching thing should be a bit more structured with less pressure on those setting the questions.

The teaching side is slightly different, as we dont have bloggers, i suggest a slightly different route.....
The Set questions (SQ from now), can be put forward for inclusion.

Resources in the form of book passages and papers will be posted on the learning site (will explain later), a thread will be started here for each question. In that thread, people with information (teaching material) can post.

For example say the question is on balanced equations, then in the thread those who know how can post the way to do it etc, this stops all the effort being put on the person setting the question. In the thread dont ASK QUESTIONS!! There will be a place for that, alot like stack exchange or the other thing where answers and questions can get voted up.

The best or most relevant questions will then be put in the thread, again those with answers can post in it.
The actual questions will be put into exam software, so no one knows the questions before hand. But the subject or nature of the question is what gets posted here.

Sounds complicated because I am crap at explaining, so let me get the basics set up and then take a look.
A couple of conditions.

The site where the tests are taken are done in moodle software, it will be open to all, except SM members with 50 half decent posts (or less if vouched for by a well known/respected member), are totally free. This gives access to the file vault,test center bit, quick question thing etc etc.

NON SM members will have to pay, its not for the money, its because I think it could prove popular, and it encourages people to join and take part here.
Some the questions/tests will be practical. Those experiments get posted up here, judging will be decided later.

As above I know this sounds utterly confusing, but its pretty simple. So instead of trying to explain, I will set up the basic form and people can see what they think.

Some great teachers here, and I think I found a way to spread the work load for them. marking is automatic by the system. The person who sets the SQ, gets to set the marks for it. There scheme of marking will be entered into the software, that way thy dont have to trawl through the answers.

Those not registered to do the tests can set questions, these will be in a part that those taking the tests cant see, the system is set so each question can be voted on. That should weed out crap questions.

Once the questions in a section are set, they will be entered.
So we pick a topic first, people provide info on the topic, questions get set that those taking the tests cant see until the test.

Marking is automatic. The practicals dont have to be done, but you loose points, and ALL practicals MUST be posted up here in there own threads.

As an example, if the practical is making CO2 gas, then you post the pics of the experiment. But there could be a question after the practical that asks a question, the kind of question you can only answer if you done the experiment....

Sorry its not very clear, it will be.
One final note, the file vault will be on a different server, it isnt public and only SM members will get logins. I prefer it if sections of books are posted in it, rather than complete books. But if you cant do that then upload and I will extract the relevant section.

Everyone happy?

Anyone got suggestions or ideas?
No piss taking at the site until its finished!! BTW upload access to the vault is for any member, read and download of sections is for registered test takers. If you want to take part but are above noob.....

maybe we can set up a noob, near noob, semi advanced etc type system. More people can get involved that way, but noobs wont be squashed out.

Sigmatropic - 25-1-2018 at 12:59

I have a question for this purpose, it is meant as a reflection for those that have mastered the weird world of convoluted curly arrowed answers.
I propose the following :
Considering the three main types of pericyclic reactions; electrocyclic reaction, sigmatropic rearrangement and cycloaddition. Propose a mechanism whereby Two equivalents of alkali azide react with propargyl halide in the absence of metal catalysts in protic solvent to form 4-triazolyl methyl azide while avoiding a mechanism featuring a (metal catalyzed) cycloaddition mechanism. Meaning: draw a mechanism involving a sigmatropic rearrangement and an electrocyclic ring closure.

IIRC this is actually a name reaction.
Bonus points for names of all important intermediates, formal descriptions of each step and of course the name of this reaction.

[will update with scheme and name]
Update 1:
Bonus points being: [3,3]-sigmatropic rrr., allene azide, 6pi electrocyclic, triazafulvene, conjugate addition and Banert cascade.
[Scheme still pending]
(I fear I have given away the answer

)

[Edited on 25-1-2018 by Sigmatropic]

MrHomeScientist - 25-1-2018 at 14:01

Perhaps it's because I'm at the end of a very long day at work, but I don't understand what you're trying to do at all. Some sort of new forum where questions get asked and answered? How is that different from here? Then you talk about marking, practicals, exams, and points - is this some sort of chemistry course you are trying to build? I'm probably going to feel like an idiot later, but right now I don't get what the intent is or how it will be executed.

What is a "set question" and what do you mean by "setting" a question? Is that a UK-ism? I think a step-by-step explanation of how this site works would be helpful.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

NON SM members will have to pay

That sounds like Quora, where you have to sign up to even see answers to questions. I hate that format, especially when someone has asked the exact question I have but I am blocked from reading the answer. Any sort of barrier to the exchange of information is against the spirit of science, in my opinion.

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

But there could be a question after the practical that asks a question

What??

aga - 25-1-2018 at 14:43

blogfast25 managed to teach a Lot right here, on this forum.

How external websites and money come into it is a mystery.

Anyone wishing to Teach can do so without any hindrance here, other than their own knowledge.
(and the trolls)

As i once tried to tell an advertising spammer here, the number of users is too low to make SM a viable financial target.

[Edited on 25-1-2018 by aga]

NEMO-Chemistry - 25-1-2018 at 17:21

Quote: Originally posted by aga

blogfast25 managed to teach a Lot right here, on this forum.

How external websites and money come into it is a mystery.

Anyone wishing to Teach can do so without any hindrance here, other than their own knowledge.
(and the trolls)

As i once tried to tell an advertising spammer here, the number of users is too low to make SM a viable financial target.

[Edited on 25-1-2018 by aga]

Told you I didnt explain it well.

Roughly extracting what others have taken this to mean.

A new forum: NO definitely not.

Aga bloggers did teach here, and he did it well. read back through that thread as I have, you see the real noobs really getting into it, then bloggers asks for some and input with questions.

Others come on board but the questions themselves seem to become the competition, it started to get a bit much like, lets see who can devise the most cunning question.

You watch the noobs drop off very quickly while that he wasnt really aiming at carry on. It was a bit of a car crash from a noobs perspective.

Not trying to be rude, but your actually a perfect example, you didnt want to be in the comp, you were aware that in reality yiu were above the level needed. But you took part (nothing wrong with that), so when you do the question in 2 hours and announce it, also saying it stretched you a bit.

Those of us real noobs were thinking, fuck we are stupid. The questions automatically also then got harder, because it was thought that the noobs were finding it to easy.

As i said nothing wrong with that as such. So i looked through the thread, i tried to see where for me and some other noobs it started going too fast.

Okay we should have spoke up, but people dont like looking stupid when you got many saying that wasnt so hard was it.

Anyway i have looked through and tried to see what was good and what wasnt. It was clear bloggers got a bit snowed under, he was asking the questions, doing most the teaching and then marking the questions.

It became alot of work, and he asked for help. What i was putting forward would have kept the good bits and got rid of the bad bits.

You mention charging and where does money come in, thats simple. If you want to take part then why not contribute to the forum that is teaching you? Its got nothing to do with money, i hope people see that and think hmmm so if i join and take part i can do this other thing free....

Its a deterrent, simple as that. I got the web site and server, i dont wont money to cover it, i dont want anyone paying! But if i said its free to non members here, then why should people here give time and effort to teach people who dont contribute to this forum?

I did a min post count so people didnt join and do 2 spam posts just to get the other free.

The use of software like a LMS, is there to cover the points bloggers made about needing help, it takes the pressure off one person doing all the work.

The forum thing is just to keep crap out of here and it wondering off all over the place, its simply a way for questions that are going to be asked in the test, being put forward. Obviously you cant warn those doing the learning what the questions are going to be before they are set!

Thats why i mentioned having a thread here for each section, this is where the learning is done, the other site was simple mechanics to make it work better than last time. Bloggers did a great job, but i think an opportunity was missed.

Look if people dont think its a good idea, its not a big deal. I can do other things with the site. But reading what has been put so far, i dont think anyone has come close to understanding what i was trying to do.

It dosnt help mentioning money, but without charging i think here would of suffered. I didnt want that, I wanted anyone from outside the forum, who came across it and found it useful, to join here and be active, and yes if they dont like forums but still want to take part, well theres your prize money.

We have references here, but thats designed for another purpose, it normally has papers or full books, the other thing i thought of was simply a place to put material that helped each subject.

For obvious reasons I didnt want it become a store for books etc and a share hub! Its not a pirate site or a FTP server.

I am still going ahead, i have spent alot of time today getting hold the site and server and trying to get it set up.
I think its worth a go even if no one else decides its worth bothering with. Its just a couple of £ spent and i have learnt some stuff on websites...win win.

I thought you would have been behind it aga, i took your views into consideration, you moan that there isnt enough doing on here, so i tried to figure a way of making more of that happen as well.

Hence why i said experiments would be posted here, i am one the worst people to do stuff but not take pictures. But like you i love reading the threads with them in.

I am surprised the first thing people focused on was money and charging.... Your first instincts were someone is trying to make some money. Yet if you read what I put, its clear I am not trying to do that. I am trying to encourage people to join here and be active here. The teaching thing could run for a good while.

I had hopped to have something at least half done to see, but it took longer than i thought. I will open it up regardless if its finished, just so you can take a look and see. But its likely to be a good few days before its even near to working properly!

Spent all night trying to bridge all the logins into one! not there yet but close.

Anyone who wants a deeper look just shout me, i will give you a temp login to see how it works. If i can find a way to make it members only and then a way to not have paid options i would do it. But so far none the solutions offer that function.

So i thought if anyone did actually pay, then use it as prize money. But i prefer they join here and take part in this forum rather than them paying.

NEMO-Chemistry - 25-1-2018 at 17:33

Once done it should all work off one login. But at the moment I havnt got that far.

So not much to see without logins, and no point registering yet as it needs bits ripping apart. But the sections should end up joined. So far the parts are here
EDIT
HAD TO REMOVE LINKS FOR NOW

I would keep alot of it open, no registering needed, but the parts where members from here, put in the effort and work. Those parts would be closed to registered users only. Also note I dont intend any experiments as such being posted up, hence the no comments or general forum. (it does at the moment cos it aint done!!)#

The quora forum is there for those like bloggers who are teaching, I havnt used that much, so not sure what it does or how, my version was for the question setters. It would save one person doing all the questions, then those setting the questions could have used it to decide the right answer.

By that I mean, it was a way to do things without a shit load of u2u's and still keep it from those like me doing the learning bit

[Edited on 26-1-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 25-1-2018 at 21:08

Got more done than i anticipated tonight, those on phones or tablets will be catered for, but currently the main focus is for other devices. Or to put another way.... it looks shit on anything but a computer, it looks crap on that

.

Once i get the front done, take a look. If the feeling is the same I will delete it, or use it for something else instead.

First views you get to see most things, but keep in mind if we go ahead, then what you can see depends on who you are. For example those who volunteer to teach or set questions, get to see and use the mini forum. Its purpose is purely to discuss what questions to set and how to mark each one, it is to save people having to do a whole load of U2U's! This way people can set questions and get input from the others that do it.

Non teachers/question setters wont see this part. Same kind of thing for other sections, for example you have to do level1 to see any level 2 material. So think of it as a kind of course that grows organically.

Not all parts of the course have to be competitions, this is a serious attempt to help people like me learn. Doing that in a structured way on a forum just dosnt work. Equally I didnt/dont want to set anything up that has a negative impact on the forum here.

Actually I hope it will attract new members to the forum, ones that are new and fresh and just learning, the kind that love to just do stuff. Obviously it's really upto everyone else what happens, I am just trying to structure what bloggers did.

If no one is interested once its open then its not a big deal. But I wanted to try and do something I think people will enjoy, and if done right should be good for here.

There is a shed load of info and knowledge here, the wiki helps, but a structured way for noobs to home chemistry to learn would be great. That is why I want the subject sections kept here, thats why there isnt any kind of general forum.

I explained the forum part really badly, its purely to help those setting questions, the other point is moodle. If we do this, then it dosnt matter when people start doing the learning, the questions and answers are not on general view.

So those in 6 months time can also start and still do the tests, because the questions and answers are hidden until you take the test. So no one even knows what you get right or wrong, unless you tell them. Automating alot of the marking takes time pressure off people doing the marking.

NEMO-Chemistry - 26-1-2018 at 08:50

Ok its a long way from done, but for an early view

https://madscience.academy main page only so far, the bits like the section for deciding questions isnt done. Not finished and mobile phone/tablet version will be done last (layout wise).

The part you take test you can reach from front page, at the moment its labeled test center, be aware as that is also being worked on, the cache is off so it is real slow to load at the moment. No real work done on this yet. This is the bit where people answer the questions and they get marked automatically. Do the scores and so on.

Button marked Course files take you to a file sharing program, its installed but that is it so far. Purely there so any chapters from books etc, that are too big to upload here will be put there, then it gives you a public link that can be posted here.

All topics (modules etc) are taught here in the forum, the really good bits i will lift out, a bit like the wiki they will be used to form a page on the topic or a kind of book. If it becomes really useful then maybe it might be worth making a sticky for the links.

The idea is not to separate the forum, but more to get around some the limitations. I was also hoping that it would take the work load and pressure of individuals. While Noobs were my target, i dont see why the same thing cant be done for the harder questions, then you end up with a system where people do say lvl1 then lv2 etc.

That way if the questions are really hard but interesting, they are simply put in the right test level. Again this is all clear as mud (my fault)

Yes I am aware there is a huge amount of Lorum Ipsum at the moment!! and alot of pictures that need changing. But i dont want to work on something people feel is a bad idea.

Finally the forum is linked to, i have also made it clear that its a kind of part of here. Everything is being done to direct people to take part here.

the links individually are

https://madscience.academy
https://madscience.academy/learn/
https://madscience.academy/vault/

I might move the file share thing to another server. It could be useful for files too large for here anyway. Its an exceptional file sharing program, built in pdf reader etc etc etc. So that might stay whatever happens. It is an easy way to share books that cant be uploaded here in refs.

Tell me what you think, if its something I feel I havnt explained well, I will try and explain or implement that feature. Then go take a look again and see what you think.

If most just think its crap and whats wrong with doing it all here, then fine I will drop it.

Or try it out with a test subject and question, pick a topic to teach. Start a thread here on it, maybe choose one based on a common question we get asked. I will then use that as an example of how I see the whole thing working.

Final note.....
At the moment there is only one membership level, in reality there would be a few, these are only there as they act as a way of restricting who sees what. You dont want those learning, seeing what the teachers are discussing. This was done last time via U2U, by doing that stack exchange type forum section, then only those setting questions see it. so its faster and easier than using u2u's

AND ONE LAST time.....

THIS IS NOT INSTEAD OF THIS FORUM!!!

I want most the discussion etc here, most the teaching... Here
But it is a way to get around some the problems from last time...
Its cost roughly £50 to get set up, i am cool with that. first section lets give a prize for the first test bit. I offer a set of those thermometers or a burette (choice of size).

So is this any clearer or a dead horse?

NEMO-Chemistry - 26-1-2018 at 16:04

Ok i found a way around the money for joining. The plugin used can do free sign ups, but it auto approves as soon as you apply.

I found a way around this now, there is another plugin that can work in conjunction. So you simply pick the membership you want, then on the sign up page will be a hidden from public field. It asks for your SM use name, this is how we check that the people are members here.

Once they apply i found another plugin, this one puts all applications in a Que to be approved. The reason for membership levels is so content can be hidden from different groups. You dont want those taking the tests, having access to the forum, as that is where those setting questions communicate (its easier,faster than messaging).

I am going to ask a couple of people to take a look with some different logins. But I think this is a dead one isnt it? I honestly thought people would be interested. Maybe if I set up an example, people might grasp the concept better.

WangleSpong5000 - 2-2-2018 at 12:37

Nice one my dude! I like...

NEMO-Chemistry - 2-2-2018 at 13:20

I had given up! But some have U2U me, So I guess i will set up a demo of what I want to do. I will start developing the site in the next few days.

Hopefully once people see what I have in mind it will make sense. Thx to Woelen for allowing me to use a little content from here to set the demo up.

I need a volunteer skeptic who can teach, this is so I can get feed back from the teacher side of it.

Once I start themeing it up and finishing the add ons, I will let you know, i intend to develop it live, so drop in anytime to see how its going. Some parts you should be able to see without joining, gradually things will change.

One area I will set up temporary is a links forum, its purpose is solely for people to post links, to what they consider to be great threads.

Once thats done I will be adding a link directory to help index SM better.

[Edited on 2-2-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]