Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Fighting fire with fire

Melgar - 9-1-2018 at 12:10

I started trying to think of whether it might be useful to spread technically-true information, but written in a way that scares idiots into understanding chemistry slightly better. Statements like:
Quote:
There are more toxins in kale than are in your typical meth lab


I mean, the above statement is certainly true, as any chemist can attest! Kale is full of phytotoxins! Granted, humans are immune to most of them, but that doesn't mean they're not toxins. Also, everything is a toxin in high enough doses, and there are more different chemicals in kale than would be found in a meth lab. So this statement, while extremely misleading, is technically accurate. Can anyone else think of statements in this same vein?

OldNubbins - 9-1-2018 at 12:46

Dihydrogen Monoxide

SWIM - 9-1-2018 at 13:36

People who use homeopathic medicines have a 100% death rate!

@OldNubbins: Reminds me of what W.C. Fields used to say about that stuff.

He wouldn't drink it because it corrodes pipes and fish fornicate in it.

Fulmen - 9-1-2018 at 13:38

I think it's dishonest, distorting the term "toxic" into a meaningless definition. If everything is toxic the term looses all meaning.

aga - 9-1-2018 at 13:52

Pointless.

Belief will always outweigh truth.

OldNubbins - 9-1-2018 at 13:59

I don't believe it is distorting the meaning, nor being dishonest. Toxicity is simply identifying a substance as being or acting in a poisonous manner. Our bodies are capable of metabolizing small amounts of cyanide, botulism toxin is the main ingredient in Botox, high partial pressures of oxygen and nitrogen will cause toxicity in scuba divers, too much water can cause hyponatremia.

These are important clarifications that people should be aware of.

Melgar - 9-1-2018 at 15:15

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
I think it's dishonest, distorting the term "toxic" into a meaningless definition. If everything is toxic the term looses all meaning.

That is actually my point. You have to preface "toxin" with an adjective or a prefix in order for the word to have any meaning. Like "neurotoxin" means something. "Toxin" does not.

j_sum1 - 9-1-2018 at 15:20

There is always this approach:
Banana-Chemical-Compounds-011416084470.jpg - 202kB


And plenty more like it.

ingredients-of-an-all-natural-banana-and-other-fruits-set-99.png - 236kB

From this blog. Here he tackles chemophobia.

Melgar - 9-1-2018 at 20:35

@j_sum1 I really like those posters! I kind of want to get a bunch of them printed in high resolution for my next lab, wherever that happens to be. They'd be great for chemistry education. And come to think of it, that's probably why you know about them. If I was a chemistry teacher, I'd definitely have a bunch of those posters in my classroom.

Fulmen - 10-1-2018 at 00:16

Melgar: Idunno. The term toxin implies toxicity, and while anything can be toxic in large enough concentrations they aren't all inherently toxic. "Toxins" should be reserved for compounds that have no useful functions and are harmful at most concentrations. So sodium chloride isn't a toxin, but it can be toxic in high concentrations. Cyanides are toxins, even though the body can handle small concentrations.

I really like j-sum1s pics.

Chemetix - 10-1-2018 at 01:18

I love the Banana poster, James Kennedy Monash has nailed the concept of fukking with the heads of the chemical puritans.

I want one of those anti drug posters where they have a grime smeared bowl in a filthy bathroom filled with some dirty looking chemical and say: Dont take drugs! They use acid and other dangerous chemicals. Except substitute the word Drugs for Aspirin.

phlogiston - 10-1-2018 at 04:42

Even if 'toxins' were well defined, then "more toxins" still raises questions.

- More different ones?
- A higher concentration? (After or before cooking? Cooking by what method?)
- A higher total amount per serving (meth vs kale)

LearnedAmateur - 11-1-2018 at 02:03

I’ve always thought that toxins were biologically produced and typically derived from such, like BTX for instance, and poisons were mostly inorganic (typically man made in this context) like sulphuric acid, cyanides, and ammonia. So yes, kale (or any other foodstuff) is inherently more toxic than what you’d find in a meth lab due to the actual definitions of the word, but ingesting most stuff in the latter will almost certainly maim/kill you faster and in a lower dose relative to the food consumed.

[Edited on 11-1-2018 by LearnedAmateur]

OldNubbins - 11-1-2018 at 07:40

I am a firm believer in that toxicity is completely dose-dependent (or if it is poisonous for that matter - unless there is something that will kill or main with one molecule). If I feel a meaning is watered down due to inappropriate use by society, then I will try to find another word or just use more adjectives like 'very' or 'bigly'.

LearnedAmateur - 11-1-2018 at 22:47

Quote: Originally posted by OldNubbins  
I am a firm believer in that toxicity is completely dose-dependent (or if it is poisonous for that matter - unless there is something that will kill or main with one molecule). If I feel a meaning is watered down due to inappropriate use by society, then I will try to find another word or just use more adjectives like 'very' or 'bigly'.


Well of course, but it depends on the molecule for instance. Using fentanyl as an example, it can be considered a poison due to the extreme potency which will certainly cause death if used in similar amounts to most other opioids, but is a perfectly good analgesic when used in the microgram range as I’ve experienced myself in a medical setting. However, if you look at water, it isn’t a poison in any range but instead can cause death by overingestion because it acts to dilute salts in the body, where hyponatremia and hypokalemia are two of the lethal conditions.

Melgar - 11-1-2018 at 23:31

@LearnedAmateur And fentanyl causes death by suppressing nerve impulses that relay pain/alarm signals to the point where your body's instincts stop working. The actual cause of death in the case of fentanyl overdose is usually something like suffocation/hypoxia.

I don't really think there's a difference between a poison and a toxin, other than there's some connotation that with a poison, the harmful effect was intentional. Whether by evolution or human action. You can have poisonous mushrooms, for example.

[Edited on 1/12/18 by Melgar]

LearnedAmateur - 12-1-2018 at 05:56

Yes, but the difference being that fentanyl ascribed deaths are the result of the drug’s actions on the body, whereas death from water is a physical change in conditions, even drowning is just the result of the body not being able to absorb oxygen due to physical blockage - as I’m sure you’re aware, water doesn’t bind to receptors (as far as we know anyway) so there is no chemical alterations to the body. Looking at other poisons we can see their effects: cyanide inhibits electron transfer in the mitochondria, nitrogen dioxide and chlorine gas generate irritation and inflammation leading to other effects, acids/strong bases corrode soft tissues via hydrolysis, et cetera.

Melgar - 12-1-2018 at 06:55

Too much water lowers the ion concentration too low to allow nerves to fire? I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's possible to draw the distinction that you're trying to describe. H2S, for example, is quite toxic, but is also necessary for certain bodily functions. So is selenium. Cyanide doesn't bond to receptors either, it bonds to enzymes, irreversibly if I remember right.

LearnedAmateur - 12-1-2018 at 07:31

What I’m trying to get at is that it’s the same conditions as what you’d develop if dietary sodium and potassium, at the least, aren’t sufficient - I.E, it’s not the water poisoning the body as such, so there is no lethal ‘dose’ as long as electrolytes are also introduced and homostasis can be maintained. But yes, those are cases where dose indeed makes the poison, and that’s true, looking it up cyanide inhibits Cytochrome C oxidase which in turn means it cannot create the necessary transmembrane potential required in the synthesis of ATP; in short, the cell can no longer produce the energy needed for it to function correctly.

Sigmatropic - 12-1-2018 at 08:54

Reminds me of this beauty.

Edit: couldn't attach it but read here:
http://blogs.nature.com/thescepticalchymist/2014/06/a-chemic...

[Edited on 12-1-2018 by Sigmatropic]

NEMO-Chemistry - 16-1-2018 at 06:48

Couldnt we do our own posters? That would be really cool.

Where would i find the contents of various fruits etc? There must be some info on it.

[Edited on 16-1-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]

WangleSpong5000 - 2-2-2018 at 18:52

The terms 'toxic' and 'poisonous' are essentially meaningless and mean different things in different areas. The two terms are well defined in the animal kingdom for example.

This subject is far more nuanced... a nerve toxin, a skin irratant, a pathogen, a biologically active agent, a supplement, a food item, an inert substance, a carcinogen, an agonist, an antagonist, a hot ranga with a thousand vaginas etc...