Sciencemadness Discussion Board

hot champagne bottle + 26 psi

arevelacao - 5-1-2007 at 15:50

Hi, champagne bottles average tolerate from 4 to 6 atm at 20°C. In my experience with volatile solvents, I warmed up the bottom of a bottle in boil water, the adapted manometer showed the pressure of 26 psi (1,85 atm). Then I turned off the heat, to avoid accidents.

My question is: how much pressure tolerate these heated champagne bottles?

I appreciate all comments, tx

Maja - 5-1-2007 at 16:10

Yea, I'm interested too in this. What do you think about champagne bottle at 70*C temperature and 2 atm pressure ? Can someone give suggestions on vessels to work under pressure like 2-3atm ?

evil_lurker - 5-1-2007 at 19:21

In the mail today I got a Chemglass 350ml pressure vessel with #15 threaded teflon stopper that is supposedly good to 150psi.

Will have to try it out... will post results later.

asilentbob - 11-1-2007 at 01:54

I'm interested in how champagne bottles handle pressure with a bit of heat as well. I have been throwing around an idea to use one for handling a small bit of heat and around 60-80psi of hydrogen.

Normal un-used champagne bottles free from scratches and other defects are good to around 95psi max, IIRC... thats room temp or slightly chilled though. IIRC most champagnes at time of opening are around 85psi...

Lambda - 11-1-2007 at 05:00

When designing complex and/or truncated Laboratory Glassware, they are usually Oven heat treated in order to equalize any stress that may have occurred during the fabrication. Champagne bottles are designed to withstand a considerable amount of pressure, and would therefore have to be tension-free. I am assuming that these bottles would be cooled down in such a manner, as to minimize tension effects. And therefore can hardly believe that they would omit such a stage in the production of these bottles, to ensure a safer container for such a world renown and also protected label.

@asilentbob, therefore has a good point when only dealing with Champagne bottles that have been checked thoroughly for defects, as to being free from scratches.

Needless to say, but covering these bottles with a strong and secure Metal mazed net in a way that no scratches are introduced onto the bottles surface, is of vital importance for safety reasons.

Enclosing this bottle in a sturdy metal or wooden container with a gas-outlet vent, may furthermore be of benefit to prevent toxic or even explosive gasses from escaping into the Lab environment in the event of a bottle-burst.

I have no idea about the design criteria of such bottles, if at all being of the same and standardized nature. A pressure chart of temperature versus pressure would be very interesting indeed, but maybe hard to come across, if at all maybe even bottle brand/manufacturer specific.

Regards,

Lambda.

Lambda - 11-1-2007 at 06:11

Just as I had posted the above mentioned, I saw a video footage on "Discovery Channel" called "Men in White - Part 6", of an exploding cool drink bottle. The explosion was so violent, that even the plastic container (looked like a PE-container) in which this sealed bottle was laying, and submerged in warm water, containing granulates of solid CO2, had completely chattered and thus was destroyed.

A container in which a Champagne bottle explodes, would therefore have to be able to handle a pulse pressure of several tons on the sidewalls.

Assuming one wall would be 10cm x 30cm, then the force will be:

5 Bar = 10 x 30 x 5 = ~1500 Kg
10 Bar = 10 x 30 x 10 = ~3000 Kg
15 Bar = 10 x 30 x 15 = ~4500 Kg
20 Bar = 10 x 30 x 20 = ~6000 Kg
25 Bar = 10 x 30 x 25 = ~7500 Kg
30 Bar = 10 x 30 x 30 = ~9000 Kg

It may be clear from the above given example, that even a 5 Bar exploding bottle can propel a container wall with such a force and speed as to actually Kill a person. Secondary explosions caused by ignited flammable vapor blasts, may further assist in a violent death of those in the direct facilities of such an incident. A simple pressurized Champagne bottle experiment, may not be so simple for a Surgeon who has to sew back together a survivor of such an accident :(

Regards,

Lambda.

Lambda - 11-1-2007 at 08:20

By hanging a Metal wire maze reinforced Champagne bottle in a metal pipe section, will not only add to protection, but also ensure a good heat distribution of warm air around this bottle. A water bath in a sturdy container, in which this Bottle is completely submerged, will also add to protection and even heat distribution.

Regards,

Lambda.

Ozone - 11-1-2007 at 17:13

See also Sorenson, Wayne R.and Campbell Tod. W. (1968) Preparative Methods of Polymer Chemistry.John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

Chapter 2, Preparation, Fabrication, and Characterization of Polymers, pp. 8 Sealed Tube Reactions (esp. Fig. 2.3 which depicts a metal pipe fragged by an exploded sealed glass tube).

Also see, pp. 11-12 on pressure vessels for polymerization (fig. 2.5), "Alternatively, the commercially available pressure bottles or *ordinary carbonated beverage bottles* with an appropriate closure may be used where the pressures dealt with are not excessive. For example, butadiene at temperatures of up to 60°C can be safely contained, but vinyl chloride (b.p. -13°C) is marginal in safety at 40°C. It has been found that a beverage bottle closed with a rubber septum and standard metal cap will withstand up to 200 p.s.i. at slow loading, at which point the cap will usually blow off. In a few instances will the bottle itself shatter before the cap fails, but bottles should be handled in every case as if this were likely to happen."

Note that rate of pressure increase is as critical as the final pressure wrt. catastrophic failure of the container--Never shock load the vessel!

At any rate, this seems relevent (One of the pressure vessels looks an aweful lot like a Grolsch bottle!).

Good luck and be careful,

O3

asilentbob - 13-1-2007 at 19:30

Thanks for that info!

Grolsh bottles are pretty handy for homebrew and I believe I read that they are one of the brands that still comes in somewhat thick walled bottles. They, and other thick wall bottles are recommended for homebrew soda pop that is carbonated through yeast to make exploding bottles less likely. I have 3 or so of the small Grolsh ones and then 4 1L brown swing top bottles too. I don't think i would trust any of them to over 45psi though. Champagne bottles though have much thicker glass walls.

I would have many safety features present including blow off valves, distance between it and myself, rubber coated steel mesh wrapping, steel plates, etc.

Aurum - 15-1-2007 at 06:37

What is your local mains water pressure? If you pressurise the bottle from the mains and then heat it (in a water bath), any failure will not result in a violent explosion.

If you can somehow get a static pressurised water supply, that would be even better. Any suggestions anyone?

Another thought, if you sealed the bottle at 20C with say 2cc of air and the rest water, heat it to some temperature, can the internal pressure be calculated. Again, any failure would not result in an explosion if you did it in a (not boiling) water bath.

Organikum - 16-1-2007 at 02:03



Thats a soda bottle which is available here where I live for almost nothing in second hand stores. This is almost perfect.

Champagne bottles handle pressure up to 8 bar easily, temperature when applied equally is no issue.
Same for the good old glass Coke bottles, which are in my eyes more trustworthy then champagne bottles, for they have been massproduced for decades to high standards for bad abuse by stupid fucks who would love to sue the company if anything goes wrong.
Scenario: Bottle full of coke bollering around under the backwindow of a car offroad in the death valley in summer together with some metal tools.
Bottle shall not explode by design.
Estimate temperature and pressure peaks.
I suppose the coke bottle is one of the most underestimated pieces of great engineering ever.

The real problem with coke and even more champagne bottles is to fix a tight seal without weakening or damaging the bottle.
A setup with a cage of threaded bars supported by strong springs around the bottle to press down a seal seems to me the only serious option.

A metal net as shown with the soda bottle is of course always a good idea. A sealed confinement is of course a utmost stupid idea - this is more the concept of for pipe-bomb.

/ORG

picketfence - 22-1-2007 at 16:43

Gas tanks with the inner valve drilled out for the addition of reagents and a brass needle valve/stopcock soldered shut are a better option when the safety of the champagne bottle's in question.

The_deadly_dustbin - 24-1-2007 at 07:50

I'll second Org's oppinion. As long as the bottles are not scratched/scored/chipped-off there's no problem for such a thickwalled vessel (we're talking about several milimeters) to handle close to 10 atm (146 psi...praise to the metric system brothers and sisters) overpressure. If you wanna be on the safe side, bag it in some wire mesh or wrap it in duct tape.
If you're really concerned about glass flying all over your lab, go with a CO2 fire extinguisher.
You might however get some problems with this when it comes to handling corrosive agents.

hinz - 24-1-2007 at 08:23

Another method to avoid glass scrapnell would be to wrap alot of plastic tape around the entire champagne bottle. If the bottle breaks, it will probably only rip open at one side, the tape will hold the scrapnells together, so they won't fly around the room. This is basically the same trick as in car windshields and nearly all cars have it now, so it should work.

There is this brown tape, used to enclose parcels for shipping. It has excellent tensile strenght, so it might be used for this purpose. It's made of thin PE-foil, so I expect it to be temperature resistant to appr. 90°C.

http://www9.yatego.com/images/3f8bcf6b78da39.2/81055%5B1%5D....

solo - 24-1-2007 at 08:32

I liked Org's idea as I have to try a methylation that requires a closed vessel at 100 C for one hour then 120 C for 10 minutes. I haven't figured out a way to know the temp inside and want to use a heating mantle...not exactly even heat for the whole bottle but will attach a thermometeron the side of the vessel to at least have an idea as to the temp...whish I had a thermocuple which I understand can go inside the reaction vessel and give accurate readings..I will use a metal pipe sleeve over the bottle for protection with some insulation............solo

bio2 - 24-1-2007 at 13:19

One of those lace up beaker type heating mantles. would
be ideal. A slow cooker could also be dismantled for the
heating blanket .These are 200-300 watts and a dimmer could be used for heat control.

I've had good luck with soda lime wine bottles in an up to
200deg oil bath only 2-3 inches deep.

[Edited on by bio2]

madcease - 2-8-2007 at 11:02

How would one go about mag stiring a solution using a champagne bottle?
I had the assumption that they wernt flat on the bottom?

bio2 - 2-8-2007 at 11:53

Maybe the magnet would balance on the indent if
it's not too far from the stirrer.

Probably not too practical because how would you realign
a spinout when the bottle is hot?

Fleaker - 2-8-2007 at 14:17

My hydrogenator bottles are 250 mL capacity and they can be heated to 150*C. They are mounted on a shaker platform. The glass does not appear very thick at all, perhaps 3/16th of an inch, or maybe 4.8 mm thick.

My lab partner has used champagne bottles at 90*C and probably 120 psi with no problems whatsoever.

Nicodem - 3-8-2007 at 23:21

I used normal 100ml and 250ml Fluka reagent bottles (the ones you get your liquid reagents in when you buy Fluka chemicals). Immersed up to 3/4 height in water or oil baths (the plastic stopper must be outside the bath!) and heated up to 120°C they handle solvent systems generating 2 to 4 bar at those temperatures without any problems. The good thing is that you need not worry about the bottle shattering since the plastic stopper is wide enough so that the force on it is great enough to raise the teflon coating enough for the overpressure to leak when the temperature used is too high and consequently the pressure raise too much (a sort of a security valve).

Pressure Vessels

volfrahm - 5-8-2007 at 19:12

Quote:
Originally posted by evil_lurker
In the mail today I got a Chemglass 350ml pressure vessel with #15 threaded teflon stopper that is supposedly good to 150psi.

Will have to try it out... will post results later.


This caught my eye. Did you ever get a chance to try it out?

How easy would it be to modify the teflon stopper for hydrogenations?

madcease - 6-8-2007 at 02:37

Would a Paint Shaker be better than a home made apparatus for hydrogenation?
Or is stir using Parr bottle a better option. The reason i say this is because i think id rather use metal over glass any day

Nicodem - 6-8-2007 at 09:24

Quote:
Originally posted by volfrahm
How easy would it be to modify the teflon stopper for hydrogenations?

No need for any fancy teflon stopper if you use a hydrogenatior like the classical Parr shaker type apparatus which has a thick glass bottle fit with a rubber stopper connected only with a polypropylene tube. There is no additional element on the stopper, but this is because the stopper is tightly pressed on the bottle with a press-like holder made of metal. Consequently the fit between the glass/rubber/tube gets pressed as well and there is no leakage. The common laboratory rubber stoppers with one hole are used. So if you want to use this type of rubber stopper/polypropilene tube you need to construct the bottle holder as well.

madcease - 6-8-2007 at 10:53

Nicodem once one has constucted the press-like holder. What is best to use to seal the tube inside the rubber stopper?

bio2 - 6-8-2007 at 10:59

The tube should seal by compression alone although it wouldn't hurt to back it up with some RTV Silicone if it's
compatible with the chemicals used.

Nothing really sticks to polypropylene or polyethylene.

evil_lurker - 6-8-2007 at 11:18

Quote:
Originally posted by volfrahm
Quote:
Originally posted by evil_lurker
In the mail today I got a Chemglass 350ml pressure vessel with #15 threaded teflon stopper that is supposedly good to 150psi.

Will have to try it out... will post results later.


This caught my eye. Did you ever get a chance to try it out?

How easy would it be to modify the teflon stopper for hydrogenations?


Yah I've used it for microwave solvent extractions. Works pretty darned good.

Last week I landed a Chemglass account thru my biz... they make the teflon stoppers (bushings as they call them) already pre-drilled for 1/8" or 1/4" NPT.

The pressure vessels are pre-tested @150PSI at the factory, but they don't guarantee them in the lab due to safety reasons.

All it takes is a cross, pressure gauge, some nipples, needle valve, some hose and th necessary tank and ya gots yourself a small hydrogenator.

Nicodem - 6-8-2007 at 12:12

Quote:
Originally posted by madcease
Nicodem once one has constucted the press-like holder. What is best to use to seal the tube inside the rubber stopper?

There is nothing beetween the rubber stopper and the polypropylene tube to seal the connection. In fact, the tube can be easily pulled out of the stopper. The hermetic seal is created once you screw the press to push the stopper onto the flask. This defforms the elastic rubber stopper which in its attempt to expand seals the gap around the tube (as well as the gap between the bottle neck and the rubber). It is a very simple design which proved itself in more than 80 years of use. Here are some pictures copy/pasted from the manual:

Parr.jpg - 97kB

madcease - 14-10-2008 at 02:08

When using Platinum oxide or dioxide as catalyst what is better suited for hydrogenation a stirred setup or shaken? Does it matter? I have heard that stirred is better but more opinions would be great.
And at what temps do these hydrogenations run at or does that depend on your pressures?