Sciencemadness Discussion Board - figuring out varying concentrations in lacquer thinner.

figuring out varying concentrations in lacquer thinner.

Db33 - 15-2-2017 at 16:08

okay so i have Klean Strip Lacquer Thinner. I know from the MSDS that it has Acetone, Methanol, Ethyl Acetate, Toluene, and Petroleum Distillates as the 5 ingredients. However due to trade secrets it wont list the exact amounts. I really have a important use for this stuff and worry they one day may change the formula. So what my question is, is there somewhat i can find out exactly how much of each solvent is in the mix?

Assured Fish - 15-2-2017 at 16:40

I have pissed around alot with trying to obtain toluene from lacquer thinners and I don't think your gonna be able to find concentrations without simply doing a fractional distillation yourself to determine it.
I would also advise against adding water to it to first remove the acetone and methanol and instead just fractionally distill the lot which i realize may be inconvenient due to volume size. In my experience wih those petroleum distillates and specifically naptha is that by mixing water with it you end up with a weird system where i think some components of the naptha form an aziotrope with the the water as well as the toluene and during distillation you end up with some massive temperature fluctuations and you have trouble collecting a pure product at the end which then requires several distillations.
What sized vigreux column and boiling flask do you have on hand?

Db33 - 16-2-2017 at 08:14

i have a 1 neck 2000ml flat bottom flask and a 3 neck 1 liter round bottom flask. I have a 300mm Vigreux.

Amos - 16-2-2017 at 09:35

Fractional distillation isn't really an option here. Methanol forms azeotropes with acetone, ethyl acetate and toluene, so it's nearly impossible to determine concentration by that route. This is even further complicated by the huge number of low-boiling substances in those petroleum distillates. Every substance in the mixture will co-distill at ratios that are more or less impossible to predict.

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-2-2017 at 13:56

Maybe add N2H4 (hydrazine)...
It will form high boiling aceton ketazine (CH3)2C=N-N=C(CH3)2.
It will decompose the ethyl acetate to ethanol and acethydrazide (H2N-NH-CO-CH3).
Then you are left with volatile methanol, ethanol, toluen and paraffins (petroleum distilates)...the ketazin and acethydrazide will be less volatile.

Alternatively add saturated NaOH...to crotonise-condensate aceton to phorone, mesityl oxide and isophoron; and to hydrolyse Ethyl acetate to ethanol and Na acetate...so you are left with the same volatiles as with N2H4.

aga - 16-2-2017 at 14:35

Quote: Originally posted by Db33

okay so i have Klean Strip Lacquer Thinner. I know from the MSDS that it has Acetone, Methanol, Ethyl Acetate, Toluene, and Petroleum Distillates as the 5 ingredients. However due to trade secrets it wont list the exact amounts. I really have a important use for this stuff and worry they one day may change the formula. So what my question is, is there somewhat i can find out exactly how much of each solvent is in the mix?

No.

You just have to find out for yourself, which is fairly easy to do.

If you did "really have a important use for this stuff" you'd have bought the reagent.

Why is it that SM is so full of this kind of thing these days, and it is allowed to stand ?

Perhaps the resident multi-account troll has won, and there are only about 30~40 actual Real members left.

One of the reasons that i have not posted my own documented and photographed experiments recently is that the plethora of garbage threads on SM would be discussed much more, burying the content, making the effort pointless.

A turning point was when zts posted an excellent account of an OC experiment.

Hardly anyone paid it any attention, yet garbage was freely discussed by a far greater number of supposed members of a Chemistry forum.

The sheer volume of garbage has taken away a lot of the Love i once had for this forum.

Does anyone have a recommendation for an actual Chemistry forum i could go and join ?

JJay - 16-2-2017 at 15:10

The U.S. military maintains a database of trade secret product formulas used for fulfilling government contracts. It's classified, of course, and you'd have to have a good reason for accessing it, which would probably have to involve national security. I've never seen it and know almost nothing about it other than that it was mentioned in some regulation discussing SDS filing procedures.

I'm pretty sure the FDA and EPA have similar databases. Again, these aren't public. The USPTO also has a database of trade secrets that companies are considering patenting or wish to file in order to protect themselves from lawsuits from patents filed afterwards. I believe these become public information after some period of time, but I don't think they're published in electronic format.

Some of this information can be made available via a Freedom of Information Act request or court order, but a reason is required for requesting the information, and if you're requesting information that is classified, it has to be a very good reason.

j_sum1 - 16-2-2017 at 16:21

Quote: Originally posted by aga

aga
I think your solution is simple here.
If you want the board to be different, to have a different emphasis, then you need to model it.
If you want more chemistry and in-depth discussion, post some.
If you want less attention to trolling then talk about it less.
If you want less garbage then don't post it.

I am a big fan of yours -- I absolutely love the way you have dived into a field that is outside of your training and previous experience. I love your experimental emphasis. I have really enjoyed reading about factice rubbers, sulfur chlorides, nitrate production, activated charcoal, burnt toast chemistry, ethanol and thumpers and a whole bunch of other stuff that you have actively participated in. I love the way that you have exhorted newbies to pursue the hobby, to experiment and to learn and discover for themselves as you did. More than that, I have been inspired and motivated to extend my own knowledge. And at a personal level I enjoy your irreverent humour.
Alas, stories of the adventures from shedworld have been limited of late. And the classical aga encouragement seems to have gotten somewhat tainted.

I think I hear what you are trying to say. But, to adopt a really corny and overly-politically-correct phrase, Be the change you want to see.

phlogiston - 16-2-2017 at 16:46

Quote: Originally posted by Db33

Gas chromatography will answer your question. You could pay a lab to perform an analysis.
If your budget does not permit that and/or you enjoy a challenge, a GC can be improvised. IIRC there is a thread somewhere on this forum by someone who did so.

zwt - 16-2-2017 at 16:54

Quote: Originally posted by aga

One of the reasons that i have not posted my own documented and photographed experiments recently is that the plethora of garbage threads on SM would be discussed much more, burying the content, making the effort pointless.

So now he's admitted his primary motivation for posting is to get attention. He's also long since discovered that there are easier ways to get attention then by posting useful information.

In effect, he has become that which he hated most.

I'll just leave this here: Fractional Distillation of Lacquer Thinner to Obtain Toluene (NurdRage)

[Edited on 17-2-2017 by zwt]

Amos - 16-2-2017 at 17:05

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Right, and how many threads worth viewing get buried when you throw your whining into all of the "garbage" ones?

Post count is not the same as influence or value, aga. Geez, you even managed to take up more space in this thread than anyone offering a shred of constructive advice.

Db33 - 17-2-2017 at 08:10

geez Aga what the hell is the problem? i dont see anything with wrong with the thread i started? i love chemistry, i do love chemistry experiments, my question pertained to chemistry, and i dont see what your whole complaint is about. it just seems ur upset in general and chose to use this thread to post your anger. Again i dont think theres anything wrong with asking this question...

Also you said, if it was "really important" i would have bout the reagent? First of all, who are YOU to say whats important to someone else? If i says its important to me, then thats my opinion. Who are you to say whats important to someone else? Also what the hell do you mean reagent? Is there a reagent that has all 5 of these substances? As far as i know this lacquer thinner is the only product on the planet that has this mixture of ingredients, and in the exact mixture.

So again i respect what youve done for this board and you are someone i look up to, but your hijacking of a thread just to post your anger about the forum in general is quite low and i dont think it is necessary.

For everyone else i love the input so far! I realize Gas chromotagraphy is probably the only real answer. While i HAVE considered doing liquid chromatography in the past, i have never considered doing gas. I wonder how much it would cost to send it off and get it tested.

Morgan - 17-2-2017 at 12:47

I think it was lacquer thinner that I used to remove the label on an aluminum Coke can leaving a perfectly silver can. It had a boatload of ingredients I recall. At first it didn't seem to have any effect and then it started to take off the coating.
http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/wood-blogs/what_chemicals_...

[Edited on 17-2-2017 by Morgan]