Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Xenon trioxide and related salts

Lotilko - 16-1-2017 at 10:17

I had this idea that if some xenon compounds are capable of energetic decomposition then someone must have investigated it's energetic properties. Appearently not.

All books and sites only state that xenon trioxide is unstable and deconposes violently. However, it seems to me that xenon trioxide is the most stable of the xenon oxides exploding "only" at 25 °C or if coming into contact with organic material. I decided that despite it's rather unstable nature, and complicated synthesis, it could bear interesting properties as an explosive, mainly because it's decomposition products are gases and high density which is 4.55 g/cm3, more than twice the density of common organic explosives. I have tried to calculate it's energetic properties with the Kamlet-Jacobs equation but it gave a VoD of 13960 m/s and a PCJ of 108.65 GPa both of which seem too high. Could it be because the equation was designed for C, H, N, O based explosives, or did I do the maths wrong?

Also, the silver salt of xenic acid decomposes violently at about 110 °C. Could the salts of xenic and perxenic acid be useful as primary explosives?

Thanks in advance, as always.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 16-1-2017 at 10:55

I guess yes, because the equation was for CHNO explosivs. Also, the density is high due to the weight of xenon, and does not mean more gas is being created in a more confined space. However I have no hands on its detonation data.

[Edited on 16-1-2017 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Lotilko - 16-1-2017 at 10:59

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
I guess yes, because the equation was for CHNO explosivs. Also, the density is high due to the weight of xenon, and does not mean more gas is being created in a more confined space. However I have no hands on its detonation data.

[Edited on 16-1-2017 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]


I also calculated that 1 kg of xenon trioxide would decompose into 870 liters of gas. I don't know how could one calculate the explosive properties with that though.

PHILOU Zrealone - 17-1-2017 at 05:17

Maybe try first with detonation of Cl2O7...as a mimicker of XeO3...
Since Cl2 is heavy gas like Xe and it contains about the same amount of oxygen (3,5/Cl atom vs 3/Xe atom).
Density of Cl2O7 is approx 1,86 at 0°C.

Tdep - 17-1-2017 at 05:32

Its always been a dream of mine to do Xenon chemistry. There is a video floating around on the internet where they demonstrate blowing up some Xenon trioxide. It was from some education show from like the 1950s, amazing stuff.

Theres two major problems in doing xenon chemistry. Firstly, you need fluorine gas to react with the Xe. Theres no way around that. For years I've been dreaming up ways of in situ generating fluorine in an all copper or nickel flask, just long enough to react with the xenon to form solid xenon fluorides which can be collected. Hard is an understatement, it would be project of the year for sure but hey, it could be done.

The next issue is unfortunately, Xenon gas is expensive. Its not like argon, which is avaliable in all sorts of cheap grades. Youll struggle to find xenon anywhere, and when you do, itll be an ultra high purity ultra high price for laser or medicine or some shit. Then youd have to run it into your dangerous setup, which would have to be low yielding, so a lot of your gas just blows away. Fairly expensive project

plante1999 - 17-1-2017 at 09:23

I was the one that brought up the xenon trioxide video up, I could find it again if required.

Tdep - 17-1-2017 at 14:15

Thanks Plante, I found it using your username, worth a watch for people. But you agree its possible? This definitely has the sense of a 2012 Plante1999 project to me

Lotilko - 18-1-2017 at 08:51

I have calculated dichlorine heptoxide's propeties as PHILOU suggested and got 6197 m/s for VOD and 17.36 GPa for pressure at a density of 1.86. I think these are close to the real values.

Tdep, I have already found xenon gas, but they don't sell to individuals. :( I had this idea that chlorine trifluoride could react with xenon, but that's pretty unlikely. I don't plan on doing it in the near future, but I'll try as soon as I can get decent equipment.
Also, aren't you the owner of Eplosions&Fire?

Plante, I have watched the video and found it interrsting that it can be set off with the touch of a tissue paper.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-1-2017 at 10:55

Thanks Lotilko,

Seems indeed plausible...so probably your predictions for XeO3 must be close to reality.

Can someone please put the link to the video?
Thank you in advance.

Lotilko - 18-1-2017 at 11:05

Here you go: http://archive.org/details/research_problem_inert_gas_compou...

So it seems that xenon trioxide might be an extraordinarily powerful explosive, but very sensitive. I'll calculate in once more to see if I made errors. I have some other things to do, but I'll tend to it as soon as I have time.

[Edited on 2017.1.18 by Lotilko]

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-1-2017 at 11:22

Thank you for the link Lotilko.

The energy of explosion of XeO3 only comes from the positive Hf (formation).

Any CHNO-Z explosive with the same density as XeO3 and providing Hr (reaction) from recombination of atoms into stable gaseous molecules will have >16 km/s VOD and > 400 kbar p-cj.

Ideally mixing XeO3 with diamond nano dust (just to make it more sensitive to friction/touch :):D;):P) would make hell of a binary.

Lotilko - 18-1-2017 at 12:28

That's actually an interesting, but insane idea. Shouldn't the diamond dust make the explosion more concentrated, like in RDX/tungsten mixtures?

Also, it could be tested by lead block. What are your thoughts on that?

[Edited on 2017.1.18 by Lotilko]

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-1-2017 at 12:51

Lead block test (or mini lead block test to work with less XeO3) vs other known explosive...will give part of the explosive power (mechanical work) owing to p*V=n*R*T

Other part of the power may be evaluated by sand crushing test vs known explosive material...this test doesn't require a lot of XeO3 since the test works with 50 mg IIRC.

The diamond would offer moderate chemical resistance (vs oxydant XeO3), higher density than carbon (thus less impact on the total density of the mix), and some energy while burning --> better energy output.

Remains to find a way to measure VOD in minute quantity...Dautrich's method may be an option...via a symetrical setup (circular, rhombus, square, isosceles triangle,...)

Edit:
Of course this is only possible in minute quantities if the critical diameter and mass of detonation of XeO3 is little/low.

[Edited on 18-1-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

Dornier 335A - 18-1-2017 at 16:05

The Kamlet-Jacobs equation cannot be used for XeO3, just like it doesn't work for heavy metal primaries. XeO3 should probably be compared to AgN3 rather than CHNO-compounds. Ag and Xe have similar masses, are inert and the compounds have similar enthalpy of formation and densities.

Well, you know me; I couldn't stop there. I took the xenon data from NIST as well as exp-6 potential constants and added the gas to my JCZ implementation. It seems to replicate the liquid shock hugoniot for Xe adequately at pressures below 800 kbar so the following results should be fairly accurate:
D = 7611 m/s
P = 552 kbar
T = 4014 K
γ = 3.73
E = 2.242 MJ/kg

At 4.55 g/cm3



[Edited on 19-1-2017 by Dornier 335A]

plante1999 - 19-1-2017 at 07:45

It is possible to make, and I had a plan to do so back in the days. I had made a functional fluorine cell, and I just needed the xenon to continue. Xenon is not regulated in any way irrc. It could be obtained if someone had the required amount of money to do so. Getting cylinders is usually not cheap at all.

The apparatus required is within the reach of amateur chemists that have dedication.

The trioxide is more stable than the tetraoxide, however caution still applies. With a non reductive cation someone could prepare salts.

If someone valued their life very poorly, they could try to make the tetrazole salt of xenic acid.

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-1-2017 at 08:50

Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
The Kamlet-Jacobs equation cannot be used for XeO3, just like it doesn't work for heavy metal primaries. XeO3 should probably be compared to AgN3 rather than CHNO-compounds. Ag and Xe have similar masses, are inert and the compounds have similar enthalpy of formation and densities.

Well, you know me; I couldn't stop there. I took the xenon data from NIST as well as exp-6 potential constants and added the gas to my JCZ implementation. It seems to replicate the liquid shock hugoniot for Xe adequately at pressures below 800 kbar so the following results should be fairly accurate:
D = 7611 m/s
P = 552 kbar
T = 4014 K
γ = 3.73
E = 2.242 MJ/kg

At 4.55 g/cm3

[Edited on 19-1-2017 by Dornier 335A]

Thank you for the more precise calculation.
Yes we know you ;):P:D:) when there is a detonic calculation/speculation challenge...Dornier 335A is near and can't resist the call of it.

You program seems very flexible and adaptative.

Stil a main difference between Ag and Xe is that:
1) Ag is a solid metal or liquid at the explosion temperature and pressure but also at ambiant pressure and temperature; so it doesn't contribute to the energy p*V=n*R*T at all and is a pure dead weight and explosion heat absorber...
2) while Xe is a gas and contributes to the explosive effects...although into the range of the GigaPascal (10e-9Pa) (what we reach into detonic processes ... 300 kbar = 30 GigaPa) it may turn solid metallic...but into a detonic process this is like an elastic choc transistion...giving back all its compression energy.

Just like Argon (used into detonic study), I'm sure Xenon may also be subject to flashing when compressed fast.

Xenon is used in the new car lights ampoules...the ones with a blue hue.
It may also be found into some plasma TV screens but usually in admixture with Neon.

Am I the only one to find stange that into the provided video link the operator allows a minute amount of solid white crystals of XeO3 to explode by the simple touch of a soft paper, while a few seconds before he took it from a much larger quantity a few cm away with a hard metallic spatula in a quite rude way(applying so to see quite a friction).


[Edited on 19-1-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-1-2017 at 09:00

Quote: Originally posted by plante1999  
If someone valued their life very poorly, they could try to make the tetrazole salt of xenic acid.

Will be hard because it would be like an acid anhydride.
One possibility would be to work from sodium tetrazole and fluoro-xenon-oxide to allow for NaF formation.
Another way would be to work from tetrazolyl halide and sodium (silver) perxenate.

Would be probably easier to start form a more basic compound like amino or diamino-tetrazole salt...if the compound survives the oxydant power of the XeO3 or XeO4(x-)