Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Cleaning Denatured Ethanol

Cleaning Denatured Ethanol

D4RR3N - 7-1-2017 at 16:10

I want to make some herbal tinctures by adding grain alcohol with the herbal matter. The only problem is I can only get denatured alcohol (surgical spirit) and I don't want the poisonous junk that they add. I am using the tincture externally but still I don't want the additives.

Is there a simple way I can clean it up, I was thinking of putting it through a carbon water filter jug but not sure if that would do the trick or not.

JJay - 7-1-2017 at 16:15

Every time I read this question, I'm tempted to answer it, but it's illegal to remove the denaturants from denatured alcohol, so I refrain.

D4RR3N - 7-1-2017 at 16:33

I can get high proof vodka 96% but it is very expensive...feel free to u2u me

Melgar - 7-1-2017 at 18:18

I don't think it's actually illegal to remove denaturants, at least in the US, as long as there is no intent to use it for human consumption. It's certainly not illegal to say how to do it, thanks to the first amendment, so I'll go for it. The trouble is that they never list all the denaturants on the label or the MSDS for hardware store denatured alcohol. However, a lot of places sell ethyl rubbing alcohol, intended for application on skin, which is 70% ethanol containing denatonium benzoate as the only denaturant. That should be usable as-is for you, since 95% ethanol is probably too high for tinctures anyway. If you (not YOU you, but "you" in the sense that the English language has all but rid itself of the use of "one" as a subject, and replaced it with "you") don't want to have a bitter taste in your mouth every time you put something in your mouth that you touched, a single distillation will make short work of that. Add calcium oxide (made by heating calcium hydroxide, sold as hydrated lime, to 500C or so, or you can order it online) before distillation if you want to remove the water too.

[Edited on 1/8/17 by Melgar]

JJay - 7-1-2017 at 23:34

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar

I don't think it's actually illegal to remove denaturants, at least in the US, as long as there is no intent to use it for human consumption. It's certainly not illegal to say how to do it, thanks to the first amendment, so I'll go for it. The trouble is that they never list all the denaturants on the label or the MSDS for hardware store denatured alcohol. However, a lot of places sell ethyl rubbing alcohol, intended for application on skin, which is 70% ethanol containing denatonium benzoate as the only denaturant. That should be usable as-is for you, since 95% ethanol is probably too high for tinctures anyway. If you (not YOU you, but "you" in the sense that the English language has all but rid itself of the use of "one" as a subject, and replaced it with "you") don't want to have a bitter taste in your mouth every time you put something in your mouth that you touched, a single distillation will make short work of that. Add calcium oxide (made by heating calcium hydroxide, sold as hydrated lime, to 500C or so, or you can order it online) before distillation if you want to remove the water too.

[Edited on 1/8/17 by Melgar]

I agree with you on this: it's actually legal to remove the denaturants if you don't sell the ethanol and don't intend to use it for human consumption.

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by JJay]

Corrosive Joeseph - 8-1-2017 at 00:34

Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N

I want to make some herbal tinctures by adding grain alcohol with the herbal matter. The only problem is I can only get denatured alcohol (surgical spirit) and I don't want the poisonous junk that they add. I am using the tincture externally but still I don't want the additives.

Is there a simple way I can clean it up, I was thinking of putting it through a carbon water filter jug but not sure if that would do the trick or not.

Please post the msds of your product. No one can help you unless they know what you are dealing with.

This might help. Sorry, wikipedia isn't the best source, apparently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol

At the moment, tinctures and plant extracts are 'my thing'. I would NOT use any EtOH that had previously been denatured, especially with another alcohol, They are very hard to fully seperate.

My preferred method is a barrel, two packs of turbo yeast, 20 bags of sugar, wait two weeks (and a bit more to settle), then distill 3 times and filter 10 (just like Smirnoff do with their vodka).

Now l am happy my alcohol is fit for other peolple to consume, after all, a tincture is supposed to be a medicinal product.

There are MANY threads about brewing, distilling and cleaning ETOH on this forum. Please take the time to read them. I am too lazy right now to post any links.

Hope this helps.............

/CJ

unionised - 8-1-2017 at 02:22

The only practical schemes for removing the denaturing agents would include a distillation step.
So, unless you have a still, you are not going to succeed.
If you have a still you can start with vodka and that way you avoid the toxic additives.

hissingnoise - 8-1-2017 at 02:58

Quote:

The only practical schemes for removing the denaturing agents would include a distillation step.

Distillation won't work, I'm afraid, as denatonium too, comes over!

unionised - 8-1-2017 at 04:02

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

Quote:

The only practical schemes for removing the denaturing agents would include a distillation step.

Distillation won't work, I'm afraid, as denatonium too, comes over!

Way to go on missing the point there!
If you are going to need a still- and you are- then you might as well start with vodka which doesn't contain denatonium.

But there's another point.
"denatonium too, comes over!"
Not if you do it properly.
Denatonium is a quaternary ammonium ion and is not volatile.
You forgot to include a dephlegmator or a fractionating column in your set up.

Corrosive Joeseph - 8-1-2017 at 04:06

Not being confrontational here -

Vodka is just too damn expensive............

I am also interested in cleaning up denatured, but l still wouldn't use it for a tincture.............

Maybe someone would post a decent (and full) procedure on the forum.........

I still only read snippets of 'reflux with NaOH' and 'distill from activated carbon'................

How much of each.............?

/CJ

Edit - Sorry, the following post was posted while l added some more with an edit

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

unionised - 8-1-2017 at 04:15

OK start with sugar water and yeast.
( I seem to remember someone suggesting "a barrel, two packs of turbo yeast, 20 bags of sugar, wait two weeks (and a bit more to settle), then distill 3 times and filter 10 (just like Smirnoff do with their vodka)."

The point remains- you won't get clean alcohol without a still, so start with something clean: don't start with alcohol to which someone has deliberately added something toxic and (if they did their job properly) hard to remove.

D4RR3N - 8-1-2017 at 07:21

If it involves distillation then I am going to have to forget it as its not worth me buying one and besides that frankly I'm too lazy.

What other solvent could I use, forget glycerine or honey this is for external use and I don't want anything sticky or oily.

I need a solvent in which the polar/non polar compounds of the herb will dissolve. It has to be non toxic. Small molecular mass so the ingredients can go through the skin and it needs to be fairly inexpensive....any ideas?

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by D4RR3N]

Corrosive Joeseph - 8-1-2017 at 07:29

Laziness is really not tolerated around here...................

(facepalm)

I'm feeling generous, hopefully it helps some one else..............

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide

/CJ

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

D4RR3N - 8-1-2017 at 07:51

Well if I was selling herbal tinctures then I would be more motivated but fermenting bags of sugar and triple distilling barrels of sugar alcohol is simply not worth it.

Its funny you mention that I was just looking at a bottle of DMSO I have on my shelve. The thing is it has only recently become publicly available not. For a long time it was banned and even now it is sold mostly for veterinary application. It is still banned in personal care products to my knowledge.

Db33 - 8-1-2017 at 08:08

the last time i saw what was in Klean Strip denatured i was surprised to find that its like 50% Methanol and only 40% ethanol and 10% some other stuff, maybe stoddard solvent. But i always thought it was like 95% ethanol and only 5% methanol. But from now on ill definitely be using the 95% alcohol from the liquor store and then drying it with molecular sieves when i need good pure Ethanol.

Corrosive Joeseph - 8-1-2017 at 08:20

Attachment: Klean Strip MSDS.pdf (33kB)
This file has been downloaded 484 times

unionised - 8-1-2017 at 08:59

Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N

If it involves distillation then I am going to have to forget it as its not worth me buying one and besides that frankly I'm too lazy.

What other solvent could I use, forget glycerine or honey this is for external use and I don't want anything sticky or oily.

I need a solvent in which the polar/non polar compounds of the herb will dissolve. It has to be non toxic. Small molecular mass so the ingredients can go through the skin and it needs to be fairly inexpensive....any ideas?

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by D4RR3N]

Water?
Seriously, if you don't want to spend either the cash or the effort on getting alcohol then why not just give up?

Corrosive Joeseph - 8-1-2017 at 09:23

I never thought of it til now but water could be a possibility.

I guess l should have mentioned this earlier but different herbs require different alcohol/water percentages.

Depending on the type of material and whether it is fresh or dry.

Two good links below................

http://mountainroseblog.com/guide-tinctures-extracts/

https://oldwaysherbal.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/making-weight...

/CJ

D4RR3N - 8-1-2017 at 09:39

Your in the UK, how much is a bottle of 50> proof vodka ?

I want to make perhaps 1L of herbal tincture, it is not worth buying a still and fermenting barrels of fermented sugar.

To make a litre of herbal tincture I would need over a litre of 50> vol vodka, too expensive!

I have heard people make herbal tinctures with apple cider vinegar but I'm not sure that non polar herbal compounds would dissolve into that.

Milk might actually work since polar compounds would dissolve into the water portion whilst non polar compounds would dissolve into the lipids, problem is it spoils too fast.
I'm thinking a lipid water emulsion might work well.

I have DMSO but I dont know the reason it was banned for human use.

Corrosive Joeseph - 8-1-2017 at 10:02

You can't buy vodka greater than 40% where l am.

Our first still cost nothing and was made from an old pressure cooker, an old beer keg with the top cut off and a length of 10mm copper pipe that was left over from plumbing in the oil tank for the central heating.

I borrowed a friends 25litre beer fermenter and brewed a batch with one pack of turbo yeast and 10 bags of white table sugar.

First time out we produced 8 and haif wine bottles of 58% 'hooch'. Thats with only one distillation. Total cost so far - 18euros

And improvement in technique has this up to around 67% first distillation and a proportional loss of yield.

Since then l have knocked up a homemade fractional distillation rig and distill 3 times to 95% and then dilute to strength with spring water. This ensures sufficient purity. There does be some nasties in there and l want it as good as can be.

Anyways, what herbs are you extracting................?

DMSO horror story............... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Ramirez

Like all chemicals the government feels it has to protect the stupid public from themselves. Pft..............

/CJ

D4RR3N - 8-1-2017 at 10:53

I'm not sure I want to use the DMSO, I purchased it a few years ago also with the idea of using it in external herbal tinctures. After reading what was on the bottle and the fact that it is banned in personal care products I decided not to use it.

I am making a tincture that contains a mixture of 10 common European herbs

Corrosive Joeseph - 8-1-2017 at 23:51

It's quite unusual to extract a mixture of herbs, especially that many. Are you sure you know what you are doing..........?

It makes me wonder what they are, and what exactly are you treating.

Depending on what they are, they will most likely need different percentages and different w/v ratios.

They are usually extracted separately and then blended if need be.

A good example would be 'Dormeasan Sleep' hops and valerian root sleep remedy.

According to the famous Alfred Vogel, his hops are extracted with 65% alcohol at a v/w ratio of 1:12-13.

And the valerian root is done with 58% at 1:10-11, then both extracts mixed 50/50 v/v to make the finished product.

Anyways, hope this helps.................

/CJ

Edit - I feel like i have derailed this whole topic ever so slightly. If anyone has a good procedure for cleaning denatured could they post it or u2u me.

This is whats available in my area..............

Attachment: BARTOLINE METHYLATED SPIRITS MSDS.pdf (67kB)
This file has been downloaded 496 times

Attachment: MANGERS Methylated Spirit v7 MSDS.pdf (256kB)
This file has been downloaded 676 times

Edit 2 - I am particularly interested in the Bartoline

[Edited on 9-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

[Edited on 9-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

Deathunter88 - 9-1-2017 at 01:37

Quote: Originally posted by Db33

the last time i saw what was in Klean Strip denatured i was surprised to find that its like 50% Methanol and only 40% ethanol and 10% some other stuff, maybe stoddard solvent. But i always thought it was like 95% ethanol and only 5% methanol. But from now on ill definitely be using the 95% alcohol from the liquor store and then drying it with molecular sieves when i need good pure Ethanol.

The regular Klean Strip denatured alcohol is 40% EtOH and 50% MeOH, but the Klean Strip Green denatured alcohol is 90% EtOH with the rest being water and a small amount of ethyl acetate.

Tsjerk - 9-1-2017 at 02:26

I don't know what goes around in Germany, but in the Netherlands there is a blue denatured alcohol going around called spiritus. According to the msds It has 85% ethanol, less than 0,5% methanol, some pyridine, benzyl denatonium and the blue dye. Rest is water.

The blue dye doesn't come over in distillation and pyridine and denatonium don't come over when protonated. With a 30cm vigreux column and a bit of sulfuric acid I got ethanol with only a bit of methanol and water. If irritation is not of concern, as ethanol is irritant itself, less than 1% methanol shouldn't be a problem as it doesn't get absorpted through the skin anyway.

If methanol is really a problem just throw out the first 50% of the distillate after the column. As a litre of this stuff goes for around 2 euro you are only throwing away heat.

A distillation set is a good investment anyway which can give you years and years of experimenting fun. Otherwise go for cooking pots and copper tubing, a copper tube makes a fine column as well

[Edited on 9-1-2017 by Tsjerk]

Corrosive Joeseph - 9-1-2017 at 02:50

Thanks Tsjerk.

Some more information for anyone interestred..................

Taken from this page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol (and gives a reference)

'The European Union agreed in February 2013 to the mutual procedures for the complete denaturing of alcohol

Per hectolitre (100L) of absolute ethanol: 3 litres of isopropyl alcohol, 3 litres of methyl ethyl ketone and 1 gram denatonium benzoate'.

/CJ

Tsjerk - 9-1-2017 at 03:52

Good to know, I definitely checked that msds before 2013

[Edited on 9-1-2017 by Tsjerk]

D4RR3N - 9-1-2017 at 05:43

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph

It's quite unusual to extract a mixture of herbs, especially that many. Are you sure you know what you are doing..........?

Yes I have studied herbal medicine since high school. I don't use the standard extraction method of seven weeks in alcohol, we have better technology so we should use it.
I use a high speed blender (mine has a 3hp motor). I usually use vodka but its too expensive. My preferred method would be to blend the herb in 70-95% alcohol first, leave to stand over night and then add water blend again and leave for a week before filtering (I have a tincture press also).

Tsjerk - 9-1-2017 at 06:46

Then distill your own alcohol with pots and pans.

Maroboduus - 9-1-2017 at 10:04

Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph

It's quite unusual to extract a mixture of herbs, especially that many. Are you sure you know what you are doing..........?

Elsewhere on this site you have described yourself as an expert alchemist, and that you(and all 'true' alchemists like yourself) use symbolic language when referring to your recipes so that mercury really means not the element but something else which only you and your few enlightened peers in the alchemical field understand.
Likewise for water, where you distinguish between what the entire rest of the human race knows of as water and your 'water' which is different in some esoteric way only you and your fellow adepts understand, and are unwilling to explain. (Other than your assertion that 'it does not wet the hand")

Given this background, I think it's important to establish if by 'alcohol' you mean that substance mere chemists call ethanol, or if you are in fact referring to something else that only you and your fellow true alchemists understand the esoteric nature of.

You know, like some distillation of the blood and phlegm of the kind of toad which can so often be found dwelling in the stomach of the common mining gnome, maybe mixed with the saliva of a cockatrice.

Just for clarification.

D4RR3N - 9-1-2017 at 11:14

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus

Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph

It's quite unusual to extract a mixture of herbs, especially that many. Are you sure you know what you are doing..........?

By alcohol, yes I do mean the same variety found in vodka.

As for Alchemy, yes it is purposely written entirely in code using the names of common elements to refer to entirely different substances.

brubei - 9-1-2017 at 12:21

Sugar yeast heat

Eddygp - 9-1-2017 at 12:48

DMSO was banned because of improper use, i.e. people indiscriminately using huge quantities of it as local anaesthetic. Small amounts (anywhere <10mL probably, really!) used to aid transmission of herbal products should be totally safe.
The reason it's difficult to review the verdict, apart from bureaucracy and the sort, is because the double blind is almost impossible because of the garlic taste it gives to the user - yet another factor that makes most pharmaceutical companies less likely to use it.

DMSO is a really good shout. To use anything, of course, do it wisely. Don't drink methanol, don't drink chloroform. It just takes a brain cell and we can all use stuff properly with minimum danger. Read MSDSs and judge critically. It boils down to that.

Melgar - 9-1-2017 at 14:56

Propylene glycol might work. It's not really sticky to put it on your skin, perhaps a bit slippery though. Also, it's nontoxic, has a sweet taste, and is one of the active ingredients in skin moisturizer. Also, you could just use isopropanol. It's only about as toxic as ethanol, it just tastes bad. However, your body oxidizes it to acetone, which it can then use for energy. Acetone itself would be usable, if it didn't dry your skin out so much. The only advantage of ethanol is that it doesn't have as strong of a smell.

Alternatively, you could apply for a permit to purchase alcohol without the added tax, for use manufacturing a non-beverage product.

D4RR3N - 9-1-2017 at 15:31

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar

Propylene glycol might work. It's not really sticky to put it on your skin, perhaps a bit slippery though. Also, it's nontoxic, has a sweet taste, and is one of the active ingredients in skin moisturizer. Also, you could just use isopropanol. It's only about as toxic as ethanol, it just tastes bad. However, your body oxidizes it to acetone, which it can then use for energy. Acetone itself would be usable, if it didn't dry your skin out so much. The only advantage of ethanol is that it doesn't have as strong of a smell.

Alternatively, you could apply for a permit to purchase alcohol without the added tax, for use manufacturing a non-beverage product.

I just looked on ebay and Propylene glycol is very inexpensive. I will have to cut it with something maybe even water to reduce viscosity but if it makes a good solvent for herbs then it could be what I'm looking for. Will be interesting to see how essential oils mixed in Propylene glycol behave.

JJay - 9-1-2017 at 19:45

Be aware that they have some major restrictions on propylene glycol use in the EU. In the US, you can almost legally sell it as a beverage.

GIDROZ - 9-1-2017 at 22:01

how mercury xylocaine is prepared

GIDROZ - 9-1-2017 at 22:02

how mercury xylocaine is prepared

D4RR3N - 10-1-2017 at 09:02

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Be aware that they have some major restrictions on propylene glycol use in the EU. In the US, you can almost legally sell it as a beverage.

Why would they restrict it if it is non toxic, I read E-cigarette fluid is made from it.

JJay - 10-1-2017 at 09:46

I really can't tell you the justification, but they restrict a lot of things on spurious grounds in the EU.

E-cigarette fluid is something that a lot of people would like to see outlawed.

gatosgr - 10-1-2017 at 10:00

What are you extractring exactly? Are you selling these "tinctures"? Aren't there regulations concerning cosmetic products I am curious? On a side note there are toxic substances in herbs and fruits(cyanide coming to mind) so if you concentrate them you can harm yourself or others.

[Edited on 10-1-2017 by gatosgr]

Melgar - 10-1-2017 at 10:30

Quote:

I really can't tell you the justification, but they restrict a lot of things on spurious grounds in the EU.

Ah, so they're kind of like Eurasia's California. Half the stuff I own is known by the state of California to cause cancer, because some study showed that rats breathing in nothing but a fine mist of chemical X eventually developed cancer. Kind of funny though, how they specifically exempt all natural chemical from the labeling requirement.

Oh, what about esters? Personally, I'm fond of ethyl lactate, although I can't find it anymore. It has a fruity smell kind of like coconut, and most other esters have strong smells as well. I'm assuming you don't want the tinctures to smell too strongly.

What about natural oils, like medium-chain triglycerides, or oils containing them like coconut oil? Those seem pretty popular.

[Edited on 1/10/17 by Melgar]

gatosgr - 10-1-2017 at 15:22

How do these tinctures work exactly I mean they can't pass the dermal barrier?

Dan Vizine - 13-1-2017 at 06:22

The easy way to get absolute ethanol.

$10/250 mL 96% Delivered

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ETHYL-ALCOHOL-ETHANOL-96-70-absolute...

[Edited on 13-1-2017 by Dan Vizine]

gatosgr - 13-1-2017 at 08:51

Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine

The easy way to get absolute ethanol.

$10/250 mL 96% Delivered

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ETHYL-ALCOHOL-ETHANOL-96-70-absolute...

[Edited on 13-1-2017 by Dan Vizine]

96% and 70% have the same price.

Panache - 13-1-2017 at 22:29

Omg what an awesome thread! Bet noooobody regrets reading this gem all the way through, ☹️, not giving anyone any shit in particular just the nature of beauracies.
Di propylene glycol is less vicious and can be prepared by esterifying propylene glycol..if you're intereested

gatosgr - 14-1-2017 at 00:58

How do you make dipropylene glycol and not tripropylene glycol e.t.c. ?

alking - 19-1-2017 at 12:09

Why the need to distill a homebrew 3 times and filter 10? I especially don't understand the filtration. I would think one rough distillation to get it out of the mash would get you to ~50%+, a 2nd with a column should get you from 85-95.6%, filtering once should be sufficient, if things are getting through then you just need a better filter, use celite if necessary. I've never distilled from homebrew, but why would you need to filter at all even? Especially after 2+ distillations? After you have your 85-azeotropic EtOH if you want it any more concentrated I would dry it, filter off the drying agent (or store it over it), and there you go, ~99.5%+ anhydrous EtOH.

ave369 - 19-1-2017 at 13:09

Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N

The thing is it has only recently become publicly available not. For a long time it was banned and even now it is sold mostly for veterinary application. It is still banned in personal care products to my knowledge.

In my country, DMSO is freely sold in drugstores for the purposes of making tinctures, poultices and similar topical medicine. No one who followed proper recipes was poisoned.

JJay - 19-1-2017 at 13:56

You can buy DMSO at health food stores in the U.S. It should be a fairly pure pharmaceutical grade but is probably not anhydrous.